Why are Russians so butthurt and paranoid about this organization...

uk france nazis and ushartians in poland and baltics

Poland, Baltic states and Norway

Google nato bases around the world

Doesn't look that bad

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>uk, france, nazis
You don't border these
>Poland
Borders only Kaliningrad. Which shouldn't be yours anyway.
>baltics
They are surrounded by Russia.

Have a look at the map. Borders with NATO countries are less than 5%

You mean the meme map?

He means the meme map

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>we wuz a nuclear superpower en shiit

>You don't border these

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>military presence is bordering now
You are still not surrounded by NATO countries

Since when are you afraid of them?

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>Its purpose was to contain and deny the Soviets and as they themselves love to say, they are not the Soviet Union anymore.

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Well, Russia was indeed promised by the USA in 1997 that NATO would never build any permanent bases, wouldnt have any significant forces and nuclear weapon on territories of new members. I just read memories of our negotiator from these times. Delegations of Poland, Czechia and Hungary shortly before 1997 NATO Summit in Madrid were forced to sign a document that they understand that NATO will never create any significant build-up in their countries, like it is in case of Western Europe. Our president from that times refused to sign this document initially by claiming to NATO representatives that we are not members of organisation yet but are already treated as members of second category. But he was told that if he refuses to sign it, Poland will never be a member of NATO. So he signed it. The document looked like agreement between NATO and Russia.

If you are interested about details, you can google-translate this: wiadomosci.onet.pl/tylko-w-onecie/polska-w-nato-jerzy-maria-nowak-o-kulisach-negocjacji/wsdpxzp

Today Russia might expect that this agreement is becoming dead because Poland might have significant forces of the US Army on its territory and even nuclear weapon too. But breaking of this agreement was directly launched by Russian attack on Crimea so....

>Its purpose was to contain and deny the Soviets
Yet it still exists 30 years after USSR is gone.

Do you get rid of your locks just because they caught the biggest thief in town?

When USSR collapsed soviets took all their forces back from Europe and even more - to the Urals. Russia was ready to integrate into NATO and Europe, but soon it became obvious that nobody actually gives a fuck about suporting Russia, When Poland and Czech has got adequate conversion from socialism to capitalism Russia was put on the way of "shock terapy" which actually destroyed everything that has left of soviet industrial might.
Then, without any actual reason eastern European countries has got into NATO one by one. Why? Russia was a ruin in that moment. We wanted to be friends and actually believed that it's possible.
That, after sucking cocks for ten years Russia (obviously lead by corrupted bandits) suddenly began to defend its intersts as other countries do (like - defend the military bases that has left in Sevastopol, keep preventing NATO from getting ven closer to Moscow). Anyway, in this "honest world" only US and its allies has a ligitime right to do whatever and wherever they want and get away with it, if other countries do the same they get sanctions and "BadBoy" badge.
Implying NATO wouldn't take Ukraine and Georgia in and balkanize Russia if they could. What could stop it? Why do personally you need Russia?

If there is no NATO, USSR will come back on map in original shape in few months, as all postcommunist countries that were members of NATO will have to join Russian Federation to survive geopolitical vacuum in the region. I am afraid that it is zero-one game.

>When Poland and Czech has got adequate conversion from socialism to capitalism Russia was put on the way of "shock terapy" which actually destroyed everything that has left of soviet industrial might.

You are dumb. We had shock therapy too, exactly the same as Russia, with destruction of local industry and 30% unemployment. But we didnt have oligarchs who refused Western investments like Russia. You are so shit because your elites were afraid of Western investments as they expected that competition on market would ruin their fortunes. Instead they wanted all companies and banks in Russia to be only in their hands.

I don't think that would happen at all.

>be american govt
>*yaah let's destroy the USSR and free its people*
>*it destroys itself*
>*WTF THE NUKES ARE IN UKRAINE? - WHAT IS UKRAINE? I THOUGHT GEORGIA IS OUR STATE NOT A COUNTRY! WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING TO NOT LET HOHOLS TO SELL THE NUKES TO GOATFUCKERS FOR $300 EACH*
>Just after the dissolution of the USSR B*sh comes to Ukraine and begs them to return warheads to Russia
Want to repeat that shit again? Ok. But there would be 85 of Ukraines now. Go ahead, can't wait till some peasant from Tuva nuke you and your beloved f*rst world.

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That's a bad analogy. Locks are designed to stop any thief. NATO, as you claimed, is an anti-USSR but not an anti-Russian organization. But it not only wasn't dissolved in the 90s but became bigger since then.

Sure thing, buddy. Spooky USSR is coming for you.

Geopolitical vacuum would need to be closed to avoid war in the region. Considering the fact that Western Europe is practically disarmed, 150 mln people in Central-Eastern Europe would need to orientate their countries on Russia as the only significant military power in the region. It would mean coming back to something resembling Warsaw Pact. It doesnt need a genius to predict happenings in situation of destruction of NATO.

>When Poland and Czech has got adequate conversion from socialism to capitalism Russia was put on the way of "shock terapy" which actually destroyed everything that has left of soviet industrial might.
As the Pole says, we had shock therapy too. The difference is some of our pre-war traditions and most importnatly people survived so there was something to build on and also there was less corruption. Your industry was massively tailored towards weapon production and nobody was planning a war at the moment so it's no wonder it collapsed.
>Then, without any actual reason eastern European countries has got into NATO one by one. Why?
Because we hated Russia and wanted to be western again. Which is kind of what happens when Russian troops enforce socialism.

Primarily anti-Soviet. But it's foolish to think that just because one threat is gone that others can't surface.

Russia wont have to do nothing. If NATO is destroyed, Poland will be forced to change geopolitical vectors by becoming a Russian puppet. We would need to replace NATO forces on our territory with Russian bases and so on. How do you imagine this otherwise btw?

>But it's foolish to think that just because one threat is gone that others can't surface.
So it's not exclusively anti-Soviet at all. In that case, why shouldn't Russia be worried about it?

>Poland will be forced to change geopolitical vectors by becoming a Russian puppet
Because... reasons?

Is Russia a threat to NATO or plans to be?

NATO can't be "expansionist" as it's literally just a military pledge, not a state.

That's what Russia conveniently ignores when it tries to defend its own expansionism.

> But we didnt have oligarchs who refused Western investments like Russia.
What oligarchs refused investments in Russia? The first cases was in 2000 already, From 1991 to Ukos literally all oligarchs was eager to collaborate with anyone and there were nobody who could stop them.
Anyway, you are sort of right. I can't blame NATO for the fact that our government betrayed our own people again as it always do.

Because of rules of geopolitics to close geopolitical vacuum in the region. Otherwise we would have war with Russia and we cant afford it.

Then why does Nato still exist?

NATO is a threat to Russia. Why shouldn't we be worried about it coming closer to our borders?

>Because of rules of geopolitics to close geopolitical vacuum in the region
You speak in memes.

Dude, i already explained that if NATO is being cancelled, first thing Poland does is sending its delegation to Moscow begging Russians to spread their security umbrella over whole Central-Eastern Europe which would result in creation of second Warsaw Pact. Then you would have Russia coming closer to borders of degenerate and weak Western Europe instead. It is zero-one game : somebody gains, somebody loses.

Big bad Russia wants a war with eastern europe, dragging in western europe, further dragging in their allies America, Canada, Australia and every other tom dick and harry. Right yeah, Russia wants to bring its very demise, its utter destruction for the sake of a bit of shitty land, which they have vast amounts of.

>NATO is a threat to Russia
Why?
Already explained in the thread. Because there is no reason to disband it.

>Because we hated Russia and wanted to be western again.
At this point we also wanted to be western. But NATO is military allience, it's not about economical and cultural integration at all.

>We had shock therapy too, exactly the same as Russia
>As the Pole says, we had shock therapy too.
Not exactly same.
" Whereas many economic factors were immediately applied, privatization of state-owned enterprises was delayed until society could safely handle the divestiture, as contrasted with the 'robber baron' state of affairs in Russia.

>because I say so
>"geopolitical vacuum btw"
Blurting out buzzphrases is not an explanation. Wojcech. And nothing you said makes any logical sense.

>weak Western Europe
Yes, nations with powerful economies, advanced technology, state of the art weaponry and nuclear weapons are weak. If Russia tried to creep into Europe they'd get a very rude awakening. Britain, France and Germany would wipe the floor with Russia easily.

And what do you hope for? That Poland will stand alone against Russia without NATO? Thats insane. Of course we would submit to them instantly to avoid being killed. It is Russia that has the biggest army in Europe, not Germany

Would be rather hard for Germany to wipe Russia out in situation if Russia built its military bases on Western border of Poland imo.

>But NATO is military allience, it's not about economical and cultural integration at all.
It was a statement.

>until society could safely handle the divestiture
A lot of the privatized companies went bust and embezzling became a sort of antional sport for a while. But eventually we passed laws that enabled the industry to thrive again and let in foreign investors. Why didn't you do the same? Was it because those who managed to snatch the industries also controlled the politics?

>begging Russians to spread their security umbrella over whole Central-Eastern Europe
Why? Security from who?
>Why?
Because they are armed people who have enough strength to invade us. How is that no a reason?

But the Soviet threat doesn't exist anymore?

As unfortunately russia still exists

the west did a terrible job helping russia transition into a modern post-communist country

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It wouldn't be just Germany.

>Why? Security from who?

From Russia.

>That Poland will stand alone against Russia without NATO?
What's the point of invading Poland?

So
>begging Russians to spread their security umbrella
>from Russia
?

Deluded brainwashed eastern europeans.

>the west did a terrible job helping russia transition into a modern post-communist country

We tried. They did shit like Litvenenko and refused to not be a shitty de-facto dictatorship

Oh look, ((((Atlanticist pole)))) is on his mission again.

A. That doesn't mean other threats don't exist
B. It's a military pledge so there really is no reason to disband it

>Because they are armed people who have enough strength to invade us. How is that no a reason?
You do realize how paranoid that sounds, right?

Threats from whom? Can't you just, I don't know, create your own military and look after yourselves?

>You do realize how paranoid that sounds, right?
That's how defense works. When someone is planning to kill you for 40 years you shouldn't stop worrying about them just because they said you so.
>That doesn't mean other threats don't exist
What threats?

I am really tired of dealing with your imbecilism, mate. I already said that if NATO is being destroyed, it will have to be replaced with some other geopolitical order. Such new geopolitical orders are being created in result of war. Russia is a dominator in this game, so all countries in the region of Central-Eastern Europe would be forced to accept Russian domination to avoid the war. Simple as that. If NATO is cancelled, Poland is first country to send its diplomatic mission to Russia with request of reviving Warsaw Pact. It is my last post on this topic because i am tired to explain the obvious

>Why didn't you do the same? Was it because those who managed to snatch the industries also controlled the politics?
That's what was recomended by Jeffrey David Sachs. He served as adviser to Prime Minister Yegor Gaidar and Finance Minister Boris Federov during 1991–93 on macroeconomic policies. Actually Sachs and Gaydar ruined Russia. It's unbelieveble how much harm hose guys did to russian people. Gaydar, Fedorov and yeltsin first of all, but Sachs is the second to blame.

But OP said that Nato was anti-Soviet, not anti-Russian and that Russians shouldn't be concerned

>thinking russia can conquer eastern europe
russia can't even conquer ukraine

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> Its purpose was to contain and deny the Soviets
Brainlet, this entire thread should be discarded because OP is a dumb subhuman gypsy

Nope, it is impossible for Poland or Czechia to create military that would give safety from Russia. We can only become their puppets like Belarus in situation of disintegration of NATO to avoid being killed.

those aren't ruskies dude

They won't attack Eastern Europe.

>it will have to be replaced with some other geopolitical order
Why? Because you said so?
>Such new geopolitical orders are being created in result of war
Third world countries existed.

It was real nonetheless, the USSR collapsed because we made them spend too much on defense, slow lazy communism couldn't keep up competitive and darwinian capitalism

How can you know such things? They might do this, they might not. Probability 50/50. So if such situation exists, Poland is being forced to vassalize itself to Russia to reduce the risk from 50/50 to 0/0.

Technically, we could. If Russian armed forces would strike immidiately in may 2014 Ukraine would be easily occupy. But it's obviously madness. Even Crimea costed to much to Russia, nevermind it's rightfull clay.

>They might do this
What for? Just for shit and giggles?

>Technically, we could try*
but it would be phyrric at best

dumb vatnik

>nevermind it's rightfull clay.
Do people unironically think all this clay shit outside imageboards?

I doesnt matter for what reason. They just might do this, if NATO didnt exist. Only such possibility creates serious geopolitical implications that force us to integrate ourselves with Russian Federation

>if NATO is not there Russia will definitely attack Polan!!!
>we will have to preventively spread our buttcheeks!!1
>don't you understand I know the word geopolitical that explains everything!!!1
Finland is not in NATO, cretin. There's literally zero substantiation behind your autism except for the innate Polish desire for victimhood and subservience.

because nato are hypocrites and dumb

>When someone is planning to kill you for 40 years you shouldn't stop worrying about them just because they said you so.
You should if you claim to be different than the previous regime.

Yes

Sure.

It would be easy. Ukraine military was a rusty joke in the spring of 2014 and politics in huge confusion, they wouldn't even resist. Some nationalists in the western Ukraine could go guerilla, but nothing more.

>You should if you claim to be different than the previous regime.
You just said yourself that NATO is not exclusively ant-USSR.

Somehow ironically, but yes.

Finland doesnt have a border with Germany and is not placed on European plain. Russian strategic goal is controling whole European Plain to guarantee itself absolute safety and absolute domination over Western Europe, hence their final goal is having direct border with Western Europe. Poland would need to agree on building Russian military bases on its western border under Russian pressure to avoid war.

but russia lost thousands of men in ukraine to that "rusty joke"

>NATO isn't exclusively anti-Soviet
>therefore it's anti-Russian
Conclusion jumping at its finest

>Russian strategic goal is controling whole European Plain to guarantee itself absolute safety and absolute domination over Western Europe,
Okay, so, as already noted, your whole hurdur is fueled solely by your paranoid delusions.

Umm.. sweetie controlling Finland is crucial for safety of stpb and by an extent the Russian heart land. And it's part of the European Plain
It would be really easy to invade Russia from here and vice versa

It is just geopolitics and actual Russian goals. Why do you think they want NATO out? Because they are afraid of Poland conquering them? xD

I just said what Poland would do in case of cancellation of NATO and you guys are in full denial for some irrational reason

>it's true because I said so and also geopolitics xD
Okay, bubbah.

If Russia manages to clog the European plain in Poland, Finland becomes irrelevant for all geostrategic scenarios.

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Not our fault mate, as the various failed american interventions across the middle east showed, nations can only change if they want to
Russia's ruling elite didn't want to, and so everything bad that has happened as a result of the collapse of the soviet union is something that they have brought upon themselves.

And Russia is mostly eyeing the coast line and Åland. Not some useless foreset up north. That's why in winter war the offered some useless forest in exchange for islands and a military base in Hanko peninsula. Geopolitical realities have changed