I'm trying to choose between the two, but there are pros and cona for both. If someone could correct me on my viewpoints, that would be great. (I'm in the U.S. btw).
STEM (College) (Thinking about Mech or Civ enginering, maybe software dev) Pros: High pay, pretty much guaranteed job. Cons: Waste 2 years for stupid prereqs, it takes me forever to learn concepts, East and South asians flooding the fields (nothing against them), no self employment, constantly relearning in the CS area.
Trades (Thinking about electrician or plumber, maybe IT/Networking) Pros: I don't waste 2 years bs prereqs, decent pay, have the ability to eventually be self employed. Cons: Mexicans/Latins flooding the field (nothing against them, don't know if they are in specialized trades or just regular construction), on the job injuries, have to suck union cock at first to get good paying job, parents will be slightly dissapointed for going against the status quo.
But aren't STEM majors in demand? I understand that there's no guaranteed job, but compared to other fields, it seems that way to me.
Julian Phillips
Thats just a meme pushed by clueless idiots and first-year STEMlords on Jow Forums
Jacob Evans
Nope. My brother's just graduated his engineering degree and so many of his class are having trouble finding jobs. And that's engineering, one of the most 'in demand' STEM majors.
Benjamin Brown
Yeah it's in demand, you just have to make sure you have high enough standards to be considered good when you finish. It'll be really hard for you to tell if you're challenging yourself enough though (and universities can lull you into a false sense of security).
I'm amazing by some peoples standards and an underachieving asshole by others. I got calls from recruiters at 6am the day after I updated my LinkedIn page. I usually sleep to 1pm if I have nothing else to do so I was caught off-guard. The calls continued for two months until I'd taken down every trace of my number and told a few that I wasn't interested at any price (I'd accepted a job). So IMO there's demand.
Xavier Bennett
I looked at the stats for BLS, and it seems that there are a lot of jobs.
(These are from BLS) Civil Engineering: 11% Growth Rate Mechanical Engineering: 9% Growth Rate What engineering field did he do?
John Cook
I think what helps is to base a career of the market and not job stability
like base your career around needs and not people's wants
for example you can always get a job in hvac, or changing oil, or at the grocery store because people will always need a/c, refrigeration, a working car, and food
stuff like arts and engineering and shit is only for if you're extremely specialized because they only need one guy to do it , whereas things people need they will constantly need more and more people because every person needs it and the population is growing
plumber and electrician would be good, IT would be good too even because lots of people have internet and that's a fairly large market I'd say
as for mexicans and shit, you just have to go to school for the trade and you will instantly be more qualified than them because they're basing all their shit off experience because they're illegal and cant go to public school or can't afford it
if you were specialized in experience and you had a degree they'd hire you over a spic
Oil change/brake places are hiring like crazy, there's a million of them in my town and my town is small. Theres one every 4 blocks
as for stem and shit you'd have to be the most specialized in your field to have complete job security cause no one wants newbies at that shit and they probably already have seniors, you'd have to intern or something probably. Unless it's a stem field that is not populated like optometry, my cousin is an optometrist and made 100k right out of college because theres so few specialists if you go stem pick some obscure ass shit and become qualified to perform it whatever it is and you should be fine but you'll probably have to move
Leo Morgan
The STEM field is about to reach bubble status. Within 5-10 years for sure (your time frame of graduation and job seeking). The problem right now is, at least in the U.S., the immigration system is allowing corporations and employers to sponsor those East and South Asians you're talking about, to do these STEM jobs for 60-70% the pay, work longer hours, and complain less (why would they complain if they could get sent back to India). Something like half of the labor force of Google and Silicon Valley is Chink and Indian. Unless you think you're incredibly hot shit, then I think you're up against stiff and unfair competition in the software development world, at least.
Nicholas Rogers
By challenging yourself do you mean getting a 4.0 GPA or something else?
And since you're in a STEM field, what do you think about the trades?
Michael Bennett
>What engineering field did he do? Electrical and computer, but he also did some software because he wanted to make sure he was well-rounded. But when I say people in his class, I mean across all of engineering.
Cameron Williams
>engineering and shit is only for if you're extremely specialized because they only need one guy to do it
I think there's a flaw in this line. The amount of work to be done is just ridiculous. Just because one guy is capable of doing something doesn't mean he'll touch it and it'll magically work, things take time. At the moment there is one engineer to several projects, with an endless list of projects backed up and the ones that are finished cannot be maintained properly. Ideally you would want a team on each project and people looking after the old ones but the people don't exist.
No end of useless marketing staff and "project managers" though.
Joshua Jones
Ok so what about automation? I'm slightly worried that the STEM majors will whip up some robot halfway throughout my career and I'll end up as a bum. Or are these jobs too specialized? I'm still in high school, so I figure I need to do this for about 50 years.
Adrian Murphy
You can look up the employment rates for specific courses in universities. About 97% is good for a bachelors and 100% is good for a masters.
Parker Miller
Btw, thanks for your all of your guys' inputs.
Alexander Long
They like pretty and fun people there. My friend is now CTO of some medium sized company (bit smaller than Discord) and all he had was a blog about easy programming optimisations and a smile. I know another guy, the creator of Lolcode and a fan of P2P, who's now in some VP role at Netflix.
It seems it is a silly place. But what do I know, they have yacht parties and I just have a house in gloomy town.
Gabriel Diaz
I have another story from a friend and friends of friend.
Smartest chick I know is a recent aerospace engineer. First of all to address your point about prereqs: yes it's true. It took her 6 years to graduate. And again, she's not dumb. Straight A high school student and floors me with her ability to grasp concepts and break it down for dummies like me to understand. Any engineering or CS person has to take EVERY math course offered by the math department at a university. That's in addition to the GE humanities requirements that people like me took. So yes, you have your work cut out for
Anyway, she told me that civil, construction and electrical engineering don't get work -- there is very little out there. She went into Aerospace because it's one of the niche ones (and Uncle Sam is always building shit). If I remember correctly, the other "hot" engineering fields are: biomedical and chemical/petroleum. And keep in mind, that relatively speaking, all of these top tier engineering fields are harder than civil, construction and EE, or other wise, everyone would be doing them. You literally have to study rocket science for aerospace and a bunch of organic chemistry courses for the other two mentioned (chemistry is regarded as the hardest subject in college).
So yeah, again, I have no first hand knowledge of the situation myself. Just hearsay. I myself am too stupid for basic calculus class. Even Algebra 2 (called intermediate in college) makes my head spin. So it's not a rosy picture. The road for a lucrative engineering field is a very long and hard one. Buncha sleepless nights. That chick barely had a social life after HS.
So take that as you will, and make your own decisions.
Dominic Garcia
If you're afraid of automation, consider careers where you work with people and need to be able to empathize and consider their feelings. Something like law, but that's already oversaturated
Jaxson Harris
I'm neither pretty nor fun. I'm actually being inclined towards the trades so instead of talking to people, I just fix toilets/computers/lights and get paid without having to small talk bullshit.
Wyatt White
Refer please to
Benjamin Butler
I don't really mean the GPA because who knows what that will cover. I'm talking about real knowledge and real work. It would be pointless to give a specialised example so how about this. Some IT people will be happy with plugging in RAM and doing virus scans, others will be happy when they have a international network of self-optimizing servers. I'm just saying there's levels of ability and you don't want to miss the boat entirely. Also, you could push yourself too hard.
I don't know enough about trades. All I know is that it would be useful if plumbers actually turned up.
Brandon Scott
Here's an alternative, how about a career as a ET in the United States Navy? ETN if you'd like to go Nuclear but Nuke school sucks, forewarning.
Landon Sanders
That comment was exclusively about Silicon Valley btw.
John Jones
My problem is that I've always felt like I've needed to work twice as hard as others. I'm in accelerated classes and taking AP classes, so it takes me forever to understand things. Don't know if this is going to hinder me if I go to college. I'll look into that. In general, if I major in STEM, I'll have to interact with people. And I'm not really a people person.
Levi Cooper
I'm not sure if anyone addressed this in OP's post: "it takes me forever to learn concepts". Yeah, you're not going to make it in the academic world if you're slow. At least, not in a normal time frame. Especially in a STEM field. You get mountains of information and get quizzed almost every week. I think you mentioned you're in high school still. You have to be honest with yourself. If your work ethic is shit now, or your brain processing power isn't the fastest, then you're just going to have a really rough time in college. College professors don't chase you down for missing/wrong assignments, or cut you breaks. I've gone up to them for help sometimes, and they shoo me away and send me to the tutoring center or library. That is how little fucks they give about you (especially in larger schools).
So please do keep that in mind. College is like high school without the hand holding, and if you increased the difficulty level by 10x.
Landon Parker
I take AP and accelerated courses, and got a 4.0 unweighted GPA, but that's because I've got all of the time in the world, and because I'm socially retarded I got no one to hang out with, do no sports etc. But thanks for your honest opinion.
Juan Barnes
> I'm in accelerated classes and taking AP classes
According to Harvard's admission staff AP classes are equivalent to A-Levels, so most international students can skip the first year of the degree. So AP is where you should be. The US just seems to drag a year behind.
This is actually my point, know what you're aiming for despite the environment you're in.
Ryder Evans
This is when you end up in some Italian cafe at 2am with a friend and two huge slices of cheese cake while lying on a sack of Java beans talking over some problem. It's actually relaxing. A nice campus is really important.
Hudson Allen
Former ME student here, this is spot on.
I couldn't swing the math. Regret not going into trades, would've had the same income I do now a few years earlier without the tuition costs. Anyway, ended up in an Advanced Manufacturing program, which was basically manufacturing engineering with less math. I do alright, currently working as a CAD technician with occasional maintenance and automation projects for a small manufacturing company.
Just know that experience is HUGE. Internship experience will put you on course for employment after graduation. Otherwise, it may be a challenge. Your skill set with just a bachelor's degree will be pretty limited, and you'll really develop your skills and be able to specialize only when you're in the field.
Michael Cooper
I'm unfamiliar with the English system. Is it common for everyone to take "A-levels" there? Here, only 10% of a top high school class are eligible to sit for AP courses. That's why our university system is structured around remediation of general liberal arts courses (that should've been taught in a proper prep school).
Hudson Rodriguez
Wtf, so you're saying that AP classes are "regular" for international students? Wow, the U.S. is really lacking in education. And just to clarify, I'm pretty good at "Humanities" AP classes, like History and Geography, since it's common sense/memorization, but I have most of the struggle in "Hard sciences" like Physics and Chemistry.
Josiah Richardson
For those with a perfect math track record, combine it with software (focus on AI) and go for finance.
Although if you really hate people you could always work from home and communicate by text like we're doing now.
Brayden Nguyen
In my school, anyone can take AP classes. I mean, like 20% dropped out the first week, and another 15% drop out after 1st semester, so you get failed class on your transcript, which isn't the best.
Colton Bell
Well one AP is worth about half an A-level, however most people don't do more than 5 A-levels.
Juan Phillips
Thanks for your input Don't you have to communicate with people and work at offices if I go into enginering?
Joshua Bailey
I'm an old fag who went to high school in an urban area 10 years ago. I was placed in AP classes the first year because of my middle school test scores. I got kicked out for not doing the work -- I'm not studious. I don't know if it was that school or time in particular, but it was explained to me that it was bit of a privilege to be in an AP class -- I was taking up someone else's spot.
If I could go back in time, then I wouldn't had been such a lazy fuck. I ended up having to just remediate courses in college. So it worked out the same in the end.
Gabriel Turner
Yes basically everybody. There's are some equivalent qualifications people can use instead, but those are on the same level. A lot of countries use these qualifications and buy the curriculum.
Levi Nguyen
So what if you're a lazy fuck like me? People who are not studious or aiming to go to college, do they get to just skip the A-levels or stop going to school after a certain year? It seems like you incorporate the first year of "American college" into your high system system.
Lucas Watson
That's why I'm taking AP classes, so I don't pay for things I could've done earlier.
Colton Walker
Yeah you can leave school at the end of the year before A-levels. Most people who do that end up not doing much, they might eventually become hair dressers or something. People can also return to do them later at a college (not a university college).
Jace Bennett
Well anyway dude, going back to the original topic of your thread. It's impossible for anyone here tell you what the right path is for you to take. If you have a 4.0 in high school then you're not stupid, by definition. Only you know your aptitude in the math and science courses. I'm sure with hard work, regardless of the difficulty, you can pull it off in college.
With that said, remember that there is an opportunity cost to doing an engineering program. Even with your AP courses, it's still going to be a 5 year program minimum. And then, you have to deal with job searching in whatever job market engineers have in 5-6 years from now.
The alternative is blue collar. I did some masonry and construction in a summer. It's hard work -- the outdoorsy trades. The big pro is, like you note, you can start making money a lot sooner. Apprenticeships can be done in a year, two at the most, and you start getting paid, unlike internships in college. Even community colleges and tech schools offer courses, so I'm sure it can be done quicker than two years. As a plumber or electrician, you'll make a solid lower middle class living. 60k salary average in the US. And keep in mind that blue collar jobs, unlike white collar ones, you can have an opportunity to be self employed. You literally just get a truck or a van, slap your name and number on the side of it, and buy your own equipment. You pick your hours, and the amount of work. If you're done for the day, then you shut off your work phone, and that's it. The same cannot be said for white collar professions. This is increasingly becoming a problem in the West -- the work follows you home. Your boss wants something, needs an answer, or a client wants something new, then you're expected to answer work emails and calls. No real off switch to 9-5 jobs like that, when you're beholden to a guy to write your checks.
You're young and this is a very much a crossroads situation. Make your own decision irrespective of what others think.
Luis Johnson
Here's Jordan Peterson commenting on this very topic.
I feel like I am a little bit above average in intelligence. I took and IQ test (Queendom, seemed legit to me) and got 110, which wasn't that suprising to me. On the topic of intelligence, since I'm in accelerated/AP classes, I interact with smart people. I can see that a lot of my classmates are able to "get" things faster, and be more creative than me, while at the same time having a life and using less time/effort. I only get a 4.0 GPA since I pretty much focus most of my time on acedemia, and the rest of the time I'm on Jow Forums, youtube, etc. I was going to major in STEM, but due to all the time and energy spent achieving the matter, I feel I can get more out of the trades due to all the benefits. Thanks for your input. I'm not thinking about going into the trades because I think I'm not that smart (not that you're implying this), but more so because of the benefits.
Elijah Cox
Well, I dont want to feel like I dissuaded you from following something either, especially if it is a dream in the back of your mind, or something that your parents want (even though you really shouln't care about what your parents want).
I guess, if I'm being completely honest with you, I'm projecting my own insecurity onto you. I spent 3 years in community college, and another 2 years in a state university, all for a bachelor's in psychology. My degree is worthless; I'm currently a NEET, and I'm now trying to study for a teaching licensing exam. If all goes well, then I'll be starting a 45k teacher's job at the ripe young age of 25. I have 20k in student loans (which is on the low end; believe me). So I often do wonder: why didn't I just become a plumber? Why did I waste thousands of hours sitting in classrooms and studying for exams for a worthless piece of paper? I could've just done plumbing training and earned roughly the same amount of money as I expect to earn now as a teacher.
Well, I don't want to be a debbie downer. You're a lot younger than me. You have time to make your own mistakes in life and learn from them. You decide what you want to do in your life by doing things, as simple as that sounds. Hey, if you decide after a year or two that you don't want to do the blue collar thing after all, then you can just apply to a university at a later date.
Alright broseph, good luck in figuring out your place in life.
Eli Myers
Do you want to do science and discover or do you want to make money?
both come with a sense of accomplishment
Trades will make you so much more money on average than STEM
trust me, I'm an internationally competitive chemistry postdocortal fellow, I have a PhD, i'm 33, and despite the high level of competition for jobs I still only make 40K / year
Brody Perez
Hehe, no, you haven't dissuaded me from anything, I've had doubts about everything since the beginning. I've been looking into the trades for a while now. I feel like my parents wouldn't be that dissapointed, as they only care that I have a job that's good paying and good for me (but they are slightly leaning towards college).
Truth be told, I don't know what I want to do in life, and I don't really care about what job I get, as long as it pays decently, I can be the boss of myself, and not talk to people that much. I just hope that I can survive till automation, get enough money to travel around the U.S. and eventually the world (I'll be smart about my money and time), and then settle down in a nice rural area with a small amount of land, where I can spend the rest of my days relaxing, reading, and doing things I want.
I hope you get rid of your debts and get a good job. Nothing worse than being enslaved.
I live in a country where it’s the highest unemployed but where people are also begging for them (time from CV upload to a job offers can be less than a day). I put it down to neckbeards and aspiring NEETs taking the course.
