Can I get a QRD on unions? Are they good or bad for society and workers?
Looking for a redpill on Unions
Good, unless they are Burger unions, they are really fucking bad corrupt shitholes.
They used to have some good ideas, but they all became terrible, corrupt bullshit rather quickly.
It can be a good thing at first that helps the workers get an organized voice to show what they need. Eventually it can turn into a social club where if you are disliked by the group then they make your life a living hell. Go against them and you pay. Unions share some of the same issues as communism.
Pretty good overall, the problem is honestly mass immigration of low-quality populations, which in homogeneous countries unions tend to be against.
Unions in Australia for example were some of the largest proponents of the White Australia policy, and in America were some of the biggest proponents banning Chinese immigration after the 1870s and 1880s.
I’ll post Beaver user’s pasta since I lost the jpegs but transcribed it.
In an ideal world, unions would not be necessary. But this is far from an ideal world.
It would be absurd to expect the lone common worker to be capable of facing his employer alone on any issue. The employer has much greater resources at his disposal and without proper regulations, has nothing stopping him from abusing these resources to simply crush any demand coming his way, legitimate or not. His relationship to his employees becomes one of pseudo-slavery; though the employees can quite any time, they do so at the cost of their revenue, and thus their food, clothing, and housing. The only difference between such an individual and a slave is that he gets to pick his master, and even that is a presumptuous assumption: He does not always have another master to pick.
And thus, worker unions appear. The workers unite and work together to make demands of an employer. Alone they are weak, but united they possess the resources they need to force an otherwise uncaring superior to bend to their demands. Some, however, question the legitimacy of unions, and point to flaws which have shown themselves in this system in recent decades. Let us examine this further.
A common claim, especially among the more libertarian, is that worker unions are pointless. Supposedly, if the worker is unsatisfied with his lot, he can simply go to another employer. This supposedly creates a system where employers must compete for employees and only those offering proper wages and working conditions are able to retain their employees. I believe that many have fallen for the idealism that this situation requires and is very much a pipe dream of sorts. I have three issues with this thinking.
My union has done an excellent job for us in collective bargaining in recent years. They are not perfect organizations but I am most definitely better off with representation than I would be without.
Unions are communist breeding instituions that exist only to fleece workers of money through dues while giving the perception that they are fighting for "worker's rights"
Money in the hand begets money. Taxation though any means is designed to keep you down.
Firstly, this implies that labor is a limited resource. It is not. Labor is widely available, and in fact, the opposite is true: Jobs are the limiting factor. Jobs are in limited supply, especially in today’s economy. A man cannot merely leave his bread-winner for another one. He is far from guaranteed to find another one, especially if he is uneducated. So already, we see that the libertarian dream of employers having to compete for employees is but this, a dream. Rather, it is potential employees competing for jobs. And when the choice is between a low wage job with poor work conditions and homelessness and starvation, it is not a choice, it becomes an obligation. Though what I think what I just said would suffice to bring down the libertarian myth of unions’ uselessness, I am not done.
The second issue is that people must remember that workers sometimes do not have the luxury of picking. Maybe they live in a small town with only one big factory. Or maybe they do not have a car and there is no public transport where they live. It matters little. The truth is that to many people, there is only one possible employer, and moving is not an option available to them, nor is subsistence farming.
Lastly, we also have to consider the truth of employer collusion. Employers will collude to keep their wages and working conditions similar. They have nothing to gain by competing for employees, and a lot to gain by agreeing to all offer the same miserable wages and working conditions. Thus, the idea that they will compete for workers is proven further wrong.
However, this does not mean unions are perfect. Far from it.
One issue which unions face is corruption, and anyone who has had to deal with them knows of it. But this issue itself is merely the same which faces every organization: Dysfunctional individuals seek power over others to the detriment of the organization itself. The same answers to the corruption of bureaucracy can be applied to the corruption of unions: Oversight, a proper system for choosing leaders and harsh punishment for corruption. Yet it is not the main issue which unions face today.
No, beyond corruption, unions face a much harsher reality: Impotence. Unions will organize protests, strikes, pressure means, etc. And all of these will fail, because in the end they do not matter. Protests and pressure do not accomplish anything and strikes are pointless if the state declares it illegal, starts sending police to arrest strikers and people go back to work out of fear when they see their colleagues being fired or having their pension funds cut.
Strangely, to understand what a union must do to obtain what the workers deserve, one must look at the corrupt. Why do corrupt unions get so much money? Why do they manage to get such high wages and social benefits that the businesses are forced to close down after a few years? Because they do not hesitate to use violence. They will ruthlessly attack their opponents, destroy the employers’ goods, sabotage his installations, etc. When police forces are brought to intervene, they face heavy opposition. When the strike is declared illegal and people are fired and pensions cut, all the employer sees is further attacks, more sabotage, more destruction.
And there is the answer. The reason why unions are seen with such loathing nowadays is because the corrupt ones cause destruction while obtaining little for the average worker while the righteous ones refuse to use the means necessary to obtain what their members have a right to. All we see are either criminal organizations which eventually cause the business to become unprofitable and shut down, costing everyone their jobs, or impotent organizations which accomplish nothing.
This must change.
As explained, unions are necessary to protect workers from predatory practices from employers. However, due to either corruption or incompetence, modern unions are failing at this purpose. In both cases, however, we can see a common cause. The corruption is not purged or they refuse to engage in violence. In both cases, the one problem which unions face is an improper use of violence.
Members of corrupt unions hesitate to use violence to purge the corrupt from their organizations, while impotent unions hesitate to use violence to obtain what their workers need. In both cases, it is a problem of upstanding, honest, righteous people refusing to engage in violence to achieve what is right. The only ones willing to use violence are the corrupt and dysfunctional.
This reinforces my belief that a society where citizens are not taught the proper use of violence is one which is doomed to fail. The present state of unions is a perfect example of it. Thus, it is my belief that while unions are not only necessary, but are a boon to the people, being their defenders, that they will never achieve their goals until the righteous find the will to do what needs to be done.
The failure of unions is a failure of the will of the just.
Communist propganda equating to nothing more than "This time will be different, I swear" as if it's not the underlying idea of a union that leads them to become corrupt.
On pic related:
1) Wage means nothing if you also dont factor in living expenses and quality of life per dollar invested.
2) Overpopulation leads to cheap labor, making it easier to fill unskilled labor jobs (those that are paid in minimum wage).
Unions are just breeding nests for corrupition. In the end you have the leaders of the unions exploiting the workers as much as their employers.
Idk man a lot of unions specifically seem to be fine. German and Norwegian, Swedish, and Danish unions are prevalent and seem to do a pretty good job of ensuring good worker wages, benefits, and treatment without being a bunch of commie bullshit.
Even in America outside of certain ones like UAW they seem to do a pretty good job.
Beaver user makes a good point about employer collusion, which I know is rare, but is a major issue when it does happen.
Look, I’m super distrustful of unions too, but workers working together for reasonably better wages isn’t bad.
The only bad thing about Unions is that they will morph from working for the workers to a crime syndicate that will extort those beneath themselves, no different from the corporations they hate. Do background research on the unions you think about joining.
good idea until their leadership gets corrupted or infiltrated.
Unions disrupt the free labor market.. anything that disrupts the free market or distorts the intrinsic value of labor is a bad thing
At best they can make sure workers get paid proper wages, safe working conditions, humane working hours with breaks and the like.
At worst they can turn in to "mafias" that end up harming both workers and the industry.
I’m a former union member. I hate not being in the union but the president of my former local has no concept of the fundamentals of organized labor and wins on an appeal to emotion and a popularity contest.
In my former union the president and the secreteray drive Japanese, non UAW autos. In some states if you don’t drive UAW they will tow you out of the lot where the local meets.
If those idiots (Pres & Secretary) who are directly associated with the AFL-CIO, who get paid to be union leaders can’t stand in solidarity with other AFL-CIO members who fight for pay, benefits and pensions. I ask, to what are they actually fighting to achieve for me?
My former union is filled with and run by idiots. It’s a beer drinking popularity contest. They are all babies that have very little understanding of labor practices.
Unions have helped build this country and are so important for workers, it’s just a damn shame that they get too involved in left wing politics and social causes that have nothing to do with labor.
read Mein Kampf
What the fuck, how do unions disrupt the labor market when they are a market entity predicated upon selling or marketing labor itself?
They are a part of the labor market.
Unions disrupt the free labor market
I don't think you understand the free labor market user.