So I was reading a news article today on some spanish newspaper with an interview with Slavoj Zizek, a so called "intellectual" and self-proclaimed philosopher. In my opinion just another commie apologist.
Anyways, I found a very intersting part on women I would like to share with you and have your thoughts on. I'll try my best to translate it from the source language, but the grammar might still seem a little off. Sorry for that.
"...When women dress up provocatively, they objectify themselves in order to attract males, thus they actively play. This is precisely what irritates our masculine chauvinism, which is outraged when a woman teases us and then refuses to have sex with us. I reject the critique feminism makes against objectification. I actually support it. It is one of the greatest achievements of sexual liberation. Women have the right to objectify themselves. They should have control over the game of seduction."
So basically, it's ok for women to provoke men to gain advantage over them. I see this as supporting the theory of erotic capital by sociologist Catherine Hakim, and how women can profit from it much more than men, since men place greater value on physical atractiveness than women do. These people agree on both the descriptive as well as the normative claims: Woman can and HAVE THE RIGHT TO use their sexual attractiveness to their advantage.
My biggest concern with all of this are the ethical and political implications. Is it really morally acceptable for women to manipulate men by abusing their natural instincts and playing with their expectations for sex, even when they know in advance they are not going to comply? Won't this break the bonds of trust between the two genders, which are necessary to have order in society? Isn't this contributing to male resentment and the rise of misogyny? What are the long-term effects? Can this explain the increasing trend of transsexualism (predominantly MtF) in western countries?
yes a fucking woman can walk around sexy if she wants....
you incels throw every shit you can think of against woman
Eli Reyes
>you incels throw every shit you can think of against woman
That's a nice ad hominem there user. Not actually an incel but I can see why you would think that from the text I wrote.
Anyway, any actual argument? What are the rights to go around dressed as you like based on? Would really like to discuss this in an honest manner...
Connor Ross
No it's not acceptable but it is natural. Also lol to women putting lesser value on physical attractiveness. That is absolutely incorrect.
Luke Jackson
It only works because you act like horny muslim refugees all the time.
Dominic Sullivan
He is right when identifying the cause for the rising misogyny in society.
Jonathan Ward
>No it's not acceptable but it is natural
Appeal to nature, not a valid argument.
>lol to women putting lesser value on physical attractiveness. That is absolutely incorrect.
Well... it's hard to measure that obectively. But as far as I know, they put more value on self-confidence, charisma, etc...
Henry Peterson
The problem is within 20 years every school shooter or incel will be able to 3d print anthrax or pick a random WMD, and that the ONLY thing you can do to prevent regular mass killings is forcing society to make sure people are pair bonded Or not and we're all dead men standing I think Le Supreme Gentlemen Eliot could have managed to download through proxies for files
>What are the long-term effects? Waifubots. By continuously objectifying themselves, women are contributing to slowly growing the potential market for women as some kind of product that companies can sell. >Can this explain the increasing trend of transsexualism (predominantly MtF) in western countries? It's one of the factors for sure. There's a supply-and-demand issue with genders and there's an oversupply of males right now.
>The problem is within 20 years every school shooter or incel will be able to 3d print anthrax or pick a random WMD But they'll also be able to 3D print their waifu.
We have natural instinct just like animals. Observe how it is in nature and you can begin to understand the underlying processes.
OK try this for yourself. Setup 3 tinder accounts. Give them all identical profiles in every way. Use 3 different pictures. One ugly, one average, one attractive. See the response. Or any other dating site/app if you argue tinder is too superficial.
Christian Cook
Lol, Hiroshima is an Asian dick, Trinity is a White dick and Tsar Bomba is BBC.
Jeremiah Hernandez
>Technology out pacing ethics is a time bomb
Definitely agree with that statement. And nobody seems to know how to solve this problem. We're fucked.
Kevin Baker
Cost supply vs time in and out vs developments when I said 20 years I meant like 3-8 We already can do and polymer we just haven't started with biology ground up yet very soon though youtube.com/watch?v=Gar2jcRlGTo&t=585s
Connor Morales
I like Zizek, but he's so fucking autistic. Even the dumb shit that he says is pretty interesting.
Mason Mitchell
No I already did, I was trying to solve the existential crisis problem and invented a utopia model as a byproduct that works into the space fairing technological age Also solves A.I. and revolutionary phenotype problems
Trouble is getting it off the ground people are basically animals and need thorough training, which is half the point of my religion It just will never be implemented
Luke Hernandez
Waifubots could fix the birth rate problems as well. With waifubots you can have polygamous marriage. Because it won't cause beta uprisings anymore (that's a lot of what is happening in the middle east, jihads are pretty much beta uprisings). Chads can keep their harems forever instead of women having to try to settle down with a beta (which more and more does not make them happy). This solves everything.
it's called economic incentive which is why the entire global economy is slowing down Also chads don't invent shit or do anything important, all they do is maintain or build by directing others. That falls apart if others have no reason to give a damn which is children
Yeah I agree. I also believe that there is nothing above or beyond nature, and that we are still animals in essence, if anything more developed intellectualy. The problem is that by that logic you can justify any kind of unethical behaviour. You kill, exploit, manipulate someone and you can justify it by resorting to darwinian struggle for survival of the fittest or whatever. Judging a human for acting unethically would become just as absurd as judging a lion for devouring an anthelope...
>OK try this for yourself. Setup 3 tinder accounts. Give them all identical profiles in every way. Use 3 different pictures. One ugly, one average, one attractive. See the response. Or any other dating site/app if you argue tinder is too superficial.
Kek I can imagine what would happen. You're right.
Blake Reyes
I also have mixed feelings about him. I agree mostly with his description of what the problem is, but he also likes to larp a lot which is annoying.
Aiden Howard
A hard reset (fragile power grid getting attacked or economic collapse from demographics ) might solve it or hopefully the second coming of Christ to wipe all degenerates off the earth.
Adam Nelson
Yes. The problem is how to stop this dynamic. It seems to me like a positive feedback loop. It only gets worse and worse...
Logan Williams
I miss the Jetsons.
Adrian Foster
>But as far as I know, they put more value on self-confidence, charisma, etc...
That's just part of the women are better than men programming they push so hard.
>Look how enlightened and smart women are! They are more in tune emotionally and are more mature than disgusting pig men who only care about the size of our breasts and our asses!
Don't fall for the propaganda user. It only serves to dehumanize and deligitimize men and stroke female egos.
Ryder Brown
Ok I see now.
But...
>...is forcing society to make sure people are pair bonded
How do you even do that realistically? Isn't pair-bonding a spontaneous relation that only arises within the members involved and cannot be forced by external forces (ie society)?
Isaac Ward
Well if that's really the case it's pretty sad we have come to such a point.
Nathan Baker
>Is it really morally acceptable for women to manipulate men by abusing their natural instincts and playing with their expectations for sex, even when they know in advance they are not going to comply?
You have something called free will, its nothing your life depends on.
Joshua Campbell
Yes, unfortunately. When I discuss this it always goes back to the "the worse, the better" argument eventually. It's starting to look like there's no other choice.
Jordan Gray
learn to neuroscience It's really easy, you cheat with chemistry Make patches like for nicotine but fill them with an absorable oxytocin via the skin You do that in a high enough dosage to make penguins jealous of the bonding
Also church based screen provided to parents who marry their children off with church guidance but not final choice, based off compatibility like a 7/10 should marry a 7/10 for both parties healthy relationship power balance
Women are retarded creatures that only live to have men slave and die for them. > Is it really morally acceptable for women to manipulate men by abusing their natural instincts and playing with their expectations for sex, even when they know in advance they are not going to comply? Do they care? No. Women don't do anything aside what men provide for them, and even then they make you do their work for them. I try not to focus on my complaints of women because it is in their nature. Something I can not change.
Isaiah Ward
>You have something called free will, its nothing your life depends on.
Do we now? Might sound edgy but I believe free will is an illusion we have when we are unaware of the causes of our behaviour. It's like the problem of decision making; When making a choice, you are always doing it according to some pre-established criterion you are unaware of. I'm interested though, what do you even call free will? How do you define it? It's definitely the direction I want to go about in discussing this.
Asher Harris
Jesus fucking christ not this shit again, stop being a faggot what kind of a speach is this.
>So basically, it's ok for women to provoke men to gain advantage over them.
What kind of man thinks like that, don't fall for shittests whatever they are be a man and bitches will follow, then you wonder why they fuck arabs if they're surrounded by such insecure faggots.
> Is it really morally acceptable for women to manipulate men by abusing their natural instincts and playing with their expectations for sex, even when they know in advance they are not going to comply?
IT DOESNT MATTER AS YOU SHOULDNT GET MANIPULATED BY SOMEONE LESS SMART THAN YOU IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Ethan Brooks
Actually we are entering a brutal Ice Age cycle as well as the next major Earth expansion period The current "Christ" damn well learned his lessons from Jesus and will not be getting fucked this time around The economies in developing nations are already deteriorating the turkish Lira is already causing problems for the EU by unpayble debt
A whole world of intellectuals, philosophies and assorted mental gymnastics cant hold a candle to the time-tested truths taught on this matter within the Bible.
Austin Watson
Nice! im exactly on the same page when it comes to free will finally someone who has similar views. though i must say i dont want to accept determinism if wed ever found out its a thing i want to believe in free will and free will only. heard there r some experiments wich claim that the unconscious part of the brain desides for us before we can influence the decision process.
Ryan Turner
I don't even look at women anymore, prostitutes from 50 years ago were more modest
Easton Sanders
>Women are retarded creatures that only live to have men slave and die for them.
I don't think it's that extreme, but I do believe they derive pleasure and validation from male attention to some extent.
>it is in their nature. Something I can not change.
I want to hope not all of them are like that. Many are very self-deluded, but they must have some agency beyond instant gratification like mere animals. Then again, like I said on I believe none of us really have any agency or free will, so we are all on the same boat here, but there are certainly some difference of degree, and women, just like men, can be educated in this.
Kevin Davis
this. Men just have higher sex drives and settle easier, while women will only put out for the top best looking guys. I imagine if you were a male model you could also manipulate women pretty easily
Cameron Sanchez
Glad to know too user! I know that conflict very well. Unfortunately I'm a bit more pessimistic. I would say determinism would be the most logical thing... but we also need free will as a necessary element to ground morality and law. If anything, I think free will is a useful lie. But useful for whom? That's the problem...
You can't judge, say, a criminal, if you also believe at the same time he didn't have any other choice than to commit a crime.
Alexander Rogers
You are casting pearls before swines
Most people know more than Socrates ever did, Does that make 99.9999999999999999% of people that do his equal?
The only way forward is Slavery for everyone However with shackles to bind you to any greatness that may be held within you. That you will always be bound down to be better than a mere animal chasing it's instincts seldom beyond a know horizon
Women aren't actually less smart, they just have a more normal distribution of IQs (ie around average) whereas men have more geniuses more also more retards
Isaac Campbell
>if you were a male model you could also manipulate women pretty easily
true, but this happens way less frequently so most men empathize better with the other side of the story, that is, those being manipulated.
I'm not taking sides whith "women" as a cohesive social group and trying to ridiculize men. I'm just trying to understand how many of us feel that way and have the same conflicts.
I'm neither claiming it's good or bad.
Austin Richardson
>It was a genuine question. Then let me answer it
Ofc you get aroused by female bodies if youre a straight man but what of it? Do you want to fuck her? most likely that wont happen since if she is halfway decently attractive she has a bf already and she is just most likely doing this for attention/validation
Checking a woman out gives her power over you and you get nothing in return
Cameron Russell
We have a better shot at defeating globalism in the next five years than we do at getting women to behave.
Robert Torres
he's not a philosopher, he's a communist. everything he says reflects that.
Leo Gray
I like this attitude. At this point, Communism has been so utterly thrashed that anyone calling themselves a Communist should not be taken seriously.
Ryder Sanchez
Do most men prefer virgins? Like I've met someone claiming that they're from a country at the forefront of gender equality (Canada) and he doesn't mind his girlfriend's sexual history, that he didn't even think about her virginity. Is that how some men can be, or is it coping mechanism for the fact that finding virgin women in such countries is becoming an increasingly harder task?
I, however, believe that if given a choice, men will mostly prefer virgins. And if the women aren't virgins, men still secretly wish that they didn't lose it to some other men before. What do you guys think about this?
Hunter Adams
>IT DOESNT MATTER AS YOU SHOULDNT GET MANIPULATED BY SOMEONE LESS SMART THAN YOU IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Yeah I see your point.
But I'm not sure that women are, by definition, less intelligent than men.
The problem is that it's hard to correctly asses the intelligence of the woman you are dealing with with 100% certainty, so you never really know whether you are actually being manipulating. That way you the trust bond between both genders break. And that leads to a lot of problems...
Jackson Campbell
I really pity people driven by sex. The true NPCs.
Isaac Wood
Correction:
whether you are actually being manipulatED. That way the trust bond between both genders break. And that leads to a lot of problems...
Christopher Bell
>men place more value on physical attractiveness Absolutely false. Men value and desire physicality more than women. But that's not the same as valuing attractiveness more.
Colton Howard
What are you driven by user?
Nathaniel Garcia
Men DO in fact prefer debt free virgins without tattoos.
Some men have no justification for this criteria and will take whatever they can get, some are in a better position to negotiate and they will never ask for a woman who has slept with two dozen men, has a tramp stamp and 10k in student loan debt, that idea is too stupid to even take seriously.
Personally, I just refuse, one or two serious partners in your history isn't optimal, but I could look past it if the experience legitimately made you a better person. But the concept of "alpha fucks beta bucks" is VERY real to women and I and many other men refuse to pick up the tab for those terrible people, as it should be. Women who think they can be a whore in their teens and twenties and then "settle down" in their thirties are in for a hilariously rude awakening.
It's not just about sex, it's about loyalty, self control and intelligent long term decision making. This is why widows are usually given a pass, despite possessing all of the above qualities their situation is legitimately out of their own control, so it is not held against them and doesn't speak negatively about their character.
John Cox
yes
Brayden Murphy
knowledge, science, and galantery
Owen Cox
>Checking a woman out gives her power over you and you get nothing in return
Thanks for the reply user. I mostly agree with you there, so no problem.
I was just trying to confirm in my earlier post whether that other user was also feeling conflicted the way I also used to.
Gavin Collins
who cares? people can do whatever they want as long as it isn't hurting anyone. sage
Zachary Brown
Not him, but I can comment. The desire to see my rivals crushed, crying and naked in a ditch somewhere. Vindication is what I live for.
I haven't really thought this through though desu, the one thing that Jow Forums has taught me is the the only thing worse then being wrong could be being right all the time.
Still, the integrity of my motivation is not compromised, it's just a small price to pay to live justified.
Jose Foster
Lets hope he replies then
I also feel conflicted because i love lcute girls and nice asses so i cant help but to look even though i know looking wont get me anywhere and will prolly just leave me sad since i want more than i get.
Whats you conflict and did you get over it? how?
Michael Sullivan
>So basically, it's ok for women to provoke men to gain advantage over them.
Of course. Everyone knows these women are just massive narcissists. Just avoid them. Its just like how women basically have to learn to deal with players.
Kayden Morris
True. It's not the same. Thanks for the correction user.
Jason Cox
That's the problem unfortunately.
Tyler Campbell
What and who decides what is hurting moron? Low IQ Low innovation and empathy races and people breeding like rabbits destroys the planet
How much cancer do you get to cause as a byproduct of living in the modern world before I can't ethical say you threaten my children? How much do you get to support any system at all that does?
I could argue anyone supporting GMOs is declaring a war on linage pretty easily
You are thinking like actions don't have meaningful ramifications long term
>since men place greater value on physical atractiveness than women do
Wrong, women value physical attractiveness way more than men do, but women care about more than physical attractiveness while men mainly just care about physical attractiveness
>My biggest concern with all of this are the ethical and political implications. Is it really morally acceptable for women to manipulate men by abusing their natural instincts and playing with their expectations for sex, even when they know in advance they are not going to comply? Won't this break the bonds of trust between the two genders, which are necessary to have order in society? Isn't this contributing to male resentment and the rise of misogyny? What are the long-term effects? Can this explain the increasing trend of transsexualism (predominantly MtF) in western countries?
No it's ILLEGAL, women walking around in yoga pants and leggings and booty shorts and spandex gym clothes is SEXUAL ASSAULT IT'S AN ILLEGAL CRIME, it's INDECENT EXPOSURE and should be punished with the FULL FORCE OF THE LAW. It's fucking sexual harassment it's exposing yourself in public and it's a crime. I suggest a minimum mandatory sentence of 15 years for any woman caught committing this sexual offense.
James Gutierrez
An analysis as a bystander would be that it will have catasthrophic consequences for both sexes. For most men it fills them with an urge to get something they know they are unable which causes frustration. But for women is way worse. The focus on physical attractiveness is going to hamper them a lot since physical attraction decays fastly after the 30s which makes them unable to gain partners after that + no male partner will want to settle long range because attractive men will gun for younger chicks and unattractive men will have grown so fed up of women that there's no way they'll cuck themselves for an old spoiled women.
On a personal note i would recommend finding better things to do. The number two if not one of attraction to women is success so as long as you are good at what you do they'll come to you and as they are smart as hell they can smell your dependence to them. Being independant and reliable is better overall since they'll step up their game to impress you if you don't seem to be dependant on them. That's at least how it works for me, i'm a 7/10 guy but i've never had any issues to get a girl crazed for me and I think it all due to being able to attract them and retaining them through basically ""ignoring"" them.
Anthony Richardson
its evil its like showing food to a starving person and then denying it
Nathaniel Hernandez
Historically speaking women had to get married to receive income and security from a husband. The husband in exchange gets access to sex and love. The reason why loose women are thought to be whores and men who fuck around are alfas is because women are giving sex for free and those men dont have to offer income and home to receive sex. The man keeps his income while the woman gets nothing and loses value. This is the reason why nearly every man was got married. Now, however, the situation is different as women no longer need men. Women dont have that natural need for a husband and this allows women to prolong their wild years. This is why marriage is a dying institution.
Oliver Rivera
>Can this explain the increasing trend of transsexualism (predominantly MtF) in western countries? Maybe. Although it's a very atypical reaction. The long term effects is that men will just replace women with the artificial womb and robots.
Benjamin Wilson
Well, hurt is a very relative concept. To exploit a sexual need by deliberately arousing it and then denying it satisfaction would be a very subtle way of harm. It can definitely create a feeling of unfulfillment and disatisfaction. It depends on your definition of hurt.
Cooper Johnson
The thing with free will is, sure, we can do whatever we want, kinda. But what is the will? We don't control what we want, we basically aren't master of our own will. Sometimes we can exercise self-control and go against our desires but why can't most of us make it so that we don't desire things that will have bad consequence in the first place?
Connor Martinez
We're transitioning into matriarchical structures, women don't have to manipulate and seduce anymore, showing erotic capital devolved into a useless atavism to satisfy some instinct. Now it's just about demanding stuff from men and checking your privilege.
Patriarchy is a reaction to this kind of development but it's usually enforced by foreign invaders. I'm not optimistic that you can change the system from within because western women worship is ingrained in early childhood, every western male is a white knight even if he thinks he isn't, he will relapse once he leaves inceldom.
Kayden Nelson
Exactly. Nothing to add there because it's fucking true.
Oliver Rivera
truth, but in the end we cant tell yet to what degree we can influence decisions only time will tell i guess
Connor Price
I hope earth expands because hell fills up.
Kayden Rodriguez
>Whats you conflict and did you get over it? how?
Well, that I'm a man and as such I'm attracted to women while at the same time I know that many of them would exploit this attraction to gain something (which could be as trivial as my attention, go figure) and obviously I don't want to fall for that.
>and did you get over it? how?
No kek, I actually didn't. Just keeping my hopes up that eventually I will find someone who falls outside these patterns, or maybe understand the whole situation better.
Parker Fisher
Hope I don't live to see that...
Justin Price
If you play a game and never let the other side win don't be surprised when you get your head smashed in with a rock.
Ryder Barnes
The feminine mind encapsulated in a single sentence, zero effort to reason with the presented ideas, just knee jerk virginity accusation at barest hint of criticism of women
William Robinson
>top best looking guys Wrong. Its good to see such ignorance on here, it really puts in perspective how many actual isolated incels there are on this site
Joshua Davis
Many hot takes by Zizek is just Zizek saying things that every man with normal testosterone levels has said throughout human history. The only difference is that he pretends to be marxist and pretends marxist thinkers have value
Jackson Gutierrez
Overall a very interesting approach. Never looked at it that way but makes a lot of sense. Gracias spanish user.
Exactly. If more people knew this there would be less problems in the world.
James Clark
>Is it really morally acceptable for women to manipulate men by abusing their natural instincts and playing with their expectations for sex, even when they know in advance they are not going to comply?
short answer YES.
long answer, DEPENDS ON THEIR GOAL.
Moral goal of self-objectification is FAMILY not WHOREDOM. You can achive a lot by WHOREDOM since women are the only ones who control sexual capital (they dont control sexuality, it is men who dictate the norms of acceptable sexuality).
Also, style of self objectivication is different depending on the goal.
>No kek, I actually didn't. So we are in the same boat
I honestly have nothing against it if its a fair trade (She gets attention and validation, i get sex/validation) but at the moment there is no fair tradeoff. She gets attention that she wants or doesnt want and i get nothing
Nicholas Campbell
not the kraut, obviously, but you should just enjoy the way women look and move w/o being a whiny faggot who politicizes everything
I think this is mostly a new phenomenon, along with social pressure to not shame non-virgin women.
Austin Foster
>>No it's not acceptable but it is natural >Appeal to nature, not a valid argument. Why is appeal to nature not a valid argument? Do you deny we are natural being and biology has hella influence on us? Most things that happen in the social or sociological sphere so to speak, are an expression of somethign biological deep down. Why deny it?
Josiah Jackson
Look up Paglia and sexual sublimation:
>... the mother as an overwhelming force who condemns men to lifelong sexual anxiety, from which they fleetingly escape through rationalism and physical achievement.
Tell me this doesn't apply to you user
Kayden Wood
>Why is appeal to nature not a valid argument? Probably because everything 'natural' for men to do is essentially already either heavily discouraged or flat out outlawed, yet women are incentivized. I don't think you realize just how hard the west is clamping down on and attempting to kill all traces of masculinity.
