Jow Forums: becoming friends with a girl is how you start a relationship

>Jow Forums: becoming friends with a girl is how you start a relationship
>most women I know: dating your friend is one of the worst things you can do, and I really can't stress that enough.
What gives?

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It's almost as if what Jow Forums thinks goes for women, and how women actually behave, are diametrically opposed to each other.

Also, the friends-first method is crap that Americans and people under 30 think is a good idea.

Pretty much everything women say about dating is about making rejecting you as painless for them as possible. It's what they want, not what actually works.

everyone is different, however women don't appreciate men who PRETEND to be their friends, only to swoop down like vultures to take advantage of her during her emotionally vulnerable moments
there's a difference between that and starting as friends and growing into a relationship as you get to know each other more

This is correct. It's useless to get advice about dating from most women. Women who are actually trying to help the guy are extremely rare.

I thought Americans only hookup first.

the terms are used in two different ways. The Jow Forums advice points out that the best way to approach women is to treat them as you would a friend when first getting to know them, this advice would apply while you are literally out together on a date - you're dating, but you start by befriending them as the base of the relationship

The other advice, from IRL women is meant to point out that a pre-existing platonic relationship that is already established, is usually not going to turn into a romantic relationship (though it can happen if both have been ignoring their mutual interest for various reasons, i.e., previously in a relationship).

Usually, dating a friend carries more risks, because you lose both the relationship and the friendship when it doesn't work out. A five month relationship can kill a ten-year relationship (as I had the unfortunate luck of learning ._.). Hell, even a few bad dates can ruin a long time friendship (something else I had to learn the hard way ._.). And when it does fail, the woman often suffers it the most.

>And when it does fail, the woman often suffers it the most.
How do you measure that? Do you have a happiness meter that you hold in front of people to see who suffers the most? Both people suffer, nobody should care about who """"""suffers the most"""""".

This. The idea of friendship is a mutual relationship. It isn't harboring secret feelings the entire time in hopes of it turning into something different.

The first step is to control yourself and drop the desperation. Stop seeing every female as a potential partner. Stop wanting it so bad.

Besides, the advice is a potential way of it happening. It isn't the end-all-be-all relationship forming avenue. It's an avenue that works. Of course there's going to be anecdotal counter evidences. Of course your female friends probably mean "the guy friends I'm not interested in" and not "the guy friends I am interested in but I usually don't tell my other guy friends about for obvious reasons."

Neither are the male posters here, because they're either full of virginal rage or they're good looking autistic sociopaths. The best bet is, like usual, to seek the most Chad acquaintance you know IRL for some tips.

I'm the user you are replying to and yes, I absolutely agree.

The fact guys usually try to move on from a relationship as quickly as possible (or at least act like it). And the fact it often isn't the guy who gets beaten by the other when it does fall apart.

>because they're either full of virginal rage or they're good looking autistic sociopaths
They're mostly ordinary men with shitty experiences with the opposite sex. Like most misogynists. :|

I disagree. What works for a "chad acquaintance" is not going to work for other people. Hell, what they say is more than likely going to be exactly what women will say.

The best way forward is to stop seeking advice. I guess this is the "just be yourself" realm of thinking, but seriously: stop being a fake faggot who's so desperate for validation that you need "advice" on how to maintain regular fucking relationships like some mastermind psychopath that needs a "plan" for every little thing.

>And the fact it often isn't the guy who gets beaten by the other when it does fall apart
Yes because a guy beating a woman up after a breakup is so extremely common, happens to every girl.
>The fact guys usually try to move on from a relationship as quickly as possible
Every girl I know who broke up found a new partner asap. The guys remained single and dateless for long. You are just generalizing and it's useless.

I found a Chad acquaintance who went from virgin to Chad. I hope you find one too. It's very motivational. He used to be fat but he worked out. I'm not a gym kind of person but his progress gave me some faith or at least made me happy for him and a bit happier in general.

>Yes because a guy beating a woman up after a breakup is so extremely common
Men beating up women, especially their partners, is common.
>Every girl I know who broke up found a new partner asap. The guys remained single and dateless for long.
Confirmation bias.

>Yes because a guy beating a woman up after a breakup is so extremely common, happens to every girl.
you must live in a nice fantasy land where this doesn't happen often

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Not everyone defines friend the same way.

When I say that kind of thing, I really just mean I like getting to know somebody first, as a guy. To me, until we are actually kissing, holding hands, making out, or engaging in sexual intimacy we "technically" are just friends. You can be friends, without holding strictly platonic feelings. A lot of guys hold a similar sentiment about how friendships "progress" into relationships and there's been some data collected that implies men are more likely to find female friends attractive, and more likely to over estimate their friends' attraction to them. But it also implied that for the men in question, a "friend" is a woman they'd have sex with, but can't, and for women, a friend is just a friend. So a lot of this really is semantics, and it helps to clarify what people mean by "friend" when this discussion happens.

>dating a friend is the worst thing you can do, and I can't stress that enough
I mean yeah, dating a good friend can fuck a friendship up. It's happened to me more than once. But I'd do it again if I really like the girl. I can't speak for everyone, but when I hear this kind of logic, it generally reads back that they aren't really interested, and are rationalizing reasons to not be. For the most part, a woman who's into you, is going to want to make that leap, whether you guys are already friends or not. I know many people preach the opposite and hey, maybe that's true, but I can think of so many instances of women liking a guy they've known for years and being pretty transparent about the fact that if they were both single and willing, she'd happily start dating him.

Everyone has a confirmation bias, including you. It's just data based on anecdotes. Stop generalizing.
It doesn't happen that often for it to be relevant in this context.

>What works for a "chad acquaintance" is not going to work for other people.
Ding, ding, ding! Congratulations on not being an absolutist fuckwit. Now leave, since you're honestly too good for this shithole.

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I'm not that guy or whatever guy you think I am.

I'm just a guy who has never needed advice for dating because it usually just works out.

>Everyone has a confirmation bias, including you.
we just had two entire threads of people batting "tu quoques" back at each other. and if we're going to derail into fallacies.
>It's just data based on anecdotes
that's a different one.
>It doesn't happen that often for it to be relevant in this context.
it happens enough for domestic abuse to be relevant to any discussion around dating.

Honestly, the more experience I gather, the more I am convinced that relationships only really start with sexual acts (counting even making out).
NEVER from being friends first.
The friendzone is a real thing, not like the so called "nice guys" would have you believe, but every woman seems to divide guys into "potential romantic/sexual partner" and "other guys".
It's easy to go from the former to the latter (literally make a single "mistake"), but almost impossible to reverse that.

The fact is, both have worked and both fail. The issue is with your women friends is that they've already seen guys who are dishonest about their feelings fall into this crazy obsession with them.

There's nothing wrong with casually getting to know a girl as a friend and finding out you two have a lot in common. But I'll admit, if you struggle with girls, "trying to be friends" first is a bad idea.

>The first step is to control yourself and drop the desperation. Stop seeing every female as a potential partner. Stop wanting it so bad.

Truer words have never been spoken.

No, it's not relevant here, we are not discussing domestic violence. Go make a thread about domestic violence instead of derailing this thread.

Alright that's just dumb dude. I don't know the stats for simple breakups, but I do know the majority of divorces are initiated by the woman. I don't see how you can twist it to appear that women suffer more than men when they get dumped. The only exception I can think of is like revenge porn or something, but even that's a bit of a stretch.

Yeah sorry I meant that more towards the user (or hypothetical anons) you are replying to or who think they need a Chad acquaintance. Imo getting advice from someone who once had the same problem and managed to solve it is the best way to get help in any problem.

"Chad" here. I do it all the time.

Most people here are mentally damaged/spergy to the point where they just need to see how a successful dude talks to people. Don't be anything you're not obviously, but learning how to talk to people with confidence and charm is a huge skill that you can't always learn on your own.

>No, it's not relevant here
it is relevant to anything involving women and relationships. especially after one poster mentioned being abused by friend-then-partner.
>we are not discussing domestic violence
we are right now.

>Americans
Seriously though, it took me way too long to realize that this "dating culture" of theirs is weird, jarring and counter intuitive.
I made quite an ass out of myself, asking and taking girls on "dates" like they do in american media, while that is really not something people usually seem to do where I live.
God knows why this is the one area where Germans are NOT straight forward, but the process seems to involve some rather arcane shit.

Being friends with a girl you have an eye on and dating a friend are different things.

Dating someone you have an established friendship with IS a bad idea. It's like dating in the work place. If/when things go wrong between the two of you, you're not the only ones who have to deal with the fallout. Your other friends inevitably are required to pick sides in the breakup and this often means they sacrifice friendships over someone else's break up.

However if you meet a girl and you think she's cool, spending some time getting to know her and letting her get to know you, without making yourself just-friends is totally possible. The trick is to cultivating and maintaining flirting and sexual tension which you can then choose to act on at a later date.

OP here, I don't see how it's not relevant. Women and abuse go together like bacon and eggs.

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Meant for .

>>Jow Forums: becoming friends with a girl is how you start a relationship
I'm on this fucking board for like 4 hours a day and I've never seen anyone say that

You want to be a friendly acquaintance, not a full-blown friend.

>Chadposting

Chad is going to tell you to be yourself.

Not everyone on this board is a raging incel, many of us have had successful relationships. You want to get advice from someone who has more likely walked your own path rather than getting advice from someone who's been driving around in a completely unrelated part of town, so to speak.

>I don't see how you can twist it to appear that women suffer more than men when they get dumped.
Not even her, but that shit's been common knowledge throughout history. Women often face harassment, stalking, physical violence, and outright murder by former lovers. It happens so much, there's not one medium in the world where this isn't a pop culture trope.

I'm I haven't had very many shitty experiences with the opposite sex, and I'm not even a misogynist.
I get that my post sounded incelly though so I'll elaborate more clearly.
Rejecting people is uncomfortable, and rejecting guys is the majority of dating for women, the same way getting rejected is the majority of dating for men. Obviously this affects the advice they give. Consciously or not, they're giving advice with the assumption that the guy is going to get rejected and with a little more empathy for the woman because that's the position they can relate to more.
With that in mind, I think there's lots value in asking girls about dating, you just have to ask the right questions.

Dating friends is a television trope

The way to start a sexual relationship is to show sexual intent from the beginning of your relationship

>friends are required to pick sides
I don't really agree with this. I think what happens is some details surface about the breakup and different people choose to side with one or the other over those details, which is different from just being forced to pick sides. I've distance myself from friends who i thought acted really shady and disrespectful in their relationships even if I didn't know the other person at all. You don't get to have different levels of character depending on the situation, it's either on point or it's not.

And what if you desire more than sex from a relationship? What then? I don't disagree with showing sexual interest to people you desire, but I disagree that you cannot do this while also maintaining a friendship.

Sometimes people need to just slightly pull their mindset back from the blackpill suicide cult and stop being fags. Worked on my machine

Women are more likely to physically abuse their partners so I don't see what you're point is.

>you're
*your

Grow up. White knighting on Jow Forums of all places won't get you laid.

Not that poster, but maybe it's not always picking sides, but there could be inequity to the breakup. The girl gets dumped and now she can't bear the sight of her ex boyfriend that she's come to love, so the group dynamic is ruined. It becomes all about them.

How is he white knighting? It honestly sounded like another post from a dude saying all women love abusive assholes and that's why they get abused so much.

oh yes im sure it must be so hard to be a middle class woman in the west

This thread is useless just like the thousands of "how do i get gf" threads in here.
>"your just an incel"
>"just be yourself"
>"stop literally raping and murdering all women bro"

>>Jow Forums: becoming friends with a girl is how you start a relationship
Literally never said that.

I always say the opposite, ask them out. Do it immediately, directly in intention, with a yes/no answer, and no pressure. THAT is how you ask a girl out.

Example, "Will you go out with me?"

Starting with you, the jerk that wants to fake a friendship just to sleep with women.

I mean I was simplifying it but yeah that's almost exactly what I said. Two people break up and a line gets drawn. Some friends choose sides, maybe based on what they've heard or which of the two they're better friends with, others stand aside because they don't want to get caught in the awkwardness, and no matter what the end result is that shit gets weird, maybe permanently.

This is all in addition to the fact that two existing friends suddenly developing feelings is unlikely in the first place of course.

Sure, I can see that, and I guess it's the risk you take when you date someone who knows people you know. For the most part, this kind of thing really hasn't been an issue for me. I'd always take a chance if I was really into the woman in question, because even if I met her "cold" I would eventually get to know some of her friends and family if it got serious, so it wouldn't make a difference for a friend group dynamic. Hell, as I get older, friend "groups" are not really a thing. There's circles and mutual friends and I'll hang out with the same batch of people every few months, but it's not like we are so invested that if one of us started dating the other, the whole foundation is at stake. Half of them wouldn't care enough to pick a side either way.

>You want to be a friendly acquaintance, not a full-blown friend.
100% this. I feel like OP misunderstood one user’s comment about making friends with girls

Don't get into a relationship, OP. You'll just end up beating her up after you lose your shit when you break up.

People get attached to each other when they are intimate. You don't have to be a milquetoast beta faggot to build a meaningful relationship with a girl. She'll seek out your commitment if she likes you.

What's wrong with being a "full-blown friend"? I've had this with women before and still been with them. My last GF literally told me before we started dating that the only difference between our friendship and a dating relationship would be sexual intimacy, and none of that was really established prior to me making a move, except the one or two times she said I was attractive and that she didn't understand why I was still single.

>if she likes you
This is the basis for every relationship. She has to like you first. If the girl likes you she will seek you. It doesn't matter if you like a girl, what matters is if she likes you, if she chooses you.
Be attractive.
Don't be unattractive.

I don't see what being a "beta faggot" and putting off sexual intimacy before you've established a level of comfort have to do with each other.

That statistically isn't true unless we're counting non-hetero relationships.
- ncadv.org/statistics

More women get abused by men than men by women.

>Be attractive.
>Don't be unattractive.

This. Everyone looks for some sort of explanation for relationship behavior when it usually just boils down to this.

>girlfriend
>friend
>not allowed to have your girlfriend be a friend
Explain women.

She can't really like you if she doesn't know you. Women have sought me out due to their interest, but sometimes faded out when they decided they didn't like me after getting to know me. Frankly, whether or not we were friends or met on a dating app didn't seem to effect the outcome - they'd either like me a lot, or they thought I was cute but I wasn't quite doing it for them personally after they learned who I was inside.

Of course two friends can get together one day. But a lot of anons are so socially inept that when they’re interested in a girl, they allow themselves to become close friends with a girl because they don’t know how to make the next step. And then they’re stuck in this platonic relationship with a girl who has no idea that her best friend secretly wants to fuck her.

I've maintained many friendships that have lasted 15, even 20+ years. Even people I sometimes still feel like I met "recently" I've known for 7+. Losing these people over a girl, either now or back in the day, would be terrible. And then there's even newer groups that I end up in, like friends from work, or new people at a bar, that I want to maintain friendships with because I'm pretty committed to not ending up old and friendless.

Do I really want to abandon these things because I got horny? The juice would have to be REALLY worth the squeeze.

It's different if you think you can't ask out this hot girl because you got introduced to her through your friend Rachel and you've all gotten beers together a whopping total of five times, but valid if you've known someone for a year or two and you're questioning if you're really interested because you like her, or she's just the only agreeable single person you've seen in a while.

>Do I really want to abandon these things because I got horny
There's more to wanting to be in a relationship with someone than "being horny"

I've seen a lot of people go through this thing where they don't know what to do. The reality for many is they know how to proceed, they just don't want to risk rejection. It can get so bad that any option is preferable to telling the other party you have feelings for them, or simply asking them out on a proper date.

>if you've known someone for a year or two and you're questioning if you're really interested because you like her, or she's just the only agreeable single person you've seen in a while.
I really don't see the harm in asking them out on a date if you find yourself having feelings that go beyond platonic. They might just reject you and that's the end of it. Or they might say yes, you go out and decide you have awesome chemistry and date for a while. Maybe you break up for a variety of reasons, but dating and romance are fraught with emotional risks, and the only way not to risk anything is to just do nothing at all. I respect that you don't want to ruin a good friendship, but to me if the feelings between both is strong enough, it's worth it to try. If you end up breaking up, it can be amicable and mature. I was kinda seeing a "friend" for a month before she ended it, not too long ago. It was awkward for a couple months after, but then we got over it and started talking again, and things are 100% normal. Nobody in the group derided or sided with either of us, and I'm not sure about her but on my end I didn't even tell any mutual friends what was going on.

I know, but you have to stop and ask yourself that. Especially back in college and my early 20s, every once in a while I'd find myself crushing on a friend. Y'know, we laugh with each other, we already enjoy each other's company, and she's looking hot, so why not, right? But then I'd take a step back and think "damn, wait, remember her last boyfriend where she threw a silly fit about him wanting to go out and drink on a Tuesday? Or how she leaves all of her dirty panties all over the floor? Do I want to be a part of that?"

I'm not saying it's not valid, just step back and figure out how much you really like the girl when you can't say "alright I'm going home now" whenever you want.

Agree. Not to argue but I hate when people bring up sex as the primary motivator for a relationship. I realize it drives many of them and for obvious reasons, but I've always desired a meaningful emotional connection over simply a sexual one, and that I'm more interested in the emotional than the physical aspect is probably why I struggle with this concept of "get sexual really quick" and I doubt I'm alone.

See my last post...
I'm not against dating a friend, you just really need to be confident about the how and the why, and not like I quoted before.
>The first step is to control yourself and drop the desperation. Stop seeing every female as a potential partner. Stop wanting it so bad.

And what if she's everything you've wanted and more, what if you think she's really just an amazing person, what if her "flaws" don't bother you as much as the other guy, etc.? Believe me, I've observed how certain women friends acted in relationships because they would tell me or I'd see it on facebook etc. and it made me lose any romantic interest in them, if there was any. So I 100% agree where you're coming from. But this is EXACTLY why I like to spend my time getting to know someone *before* I get sexual - because as stated above, being sexually intimate releases chemicals in the brain that cause you to get attached, making it harder to leave the person even if something about them really does drive you crazy. And this is the base of why I insist on being friends first - i.e. getting to know the girl and deciding if I really want to be with her, without the sex stuff clouding my judgement, but if I just acted on my sexual urges and got sexually forward right away, that would more likely lead me to getting attached and thinking irrationally.

I don't see every female as a potential partner IF I get to know them. I don't think most of them really are. If a girl is actually a nice person, of a legal age, and I like how she looks, I'm willing to explore something with them, but if something is revealed that raises real concerns, I'll probably lose interest and back off. Those kinds of things range from the obvious like she has a boyfriend or is a lesbian, to displaying signs of emotional unavailability and commitment phobia or straight up rudeness and selfishness, and every last thing in between. Which means that in the time taken getting to know them, the vast majority are going to weed out and the numbers grow smaller and smaller. Consider that this is the same thought process women have - they like a guy because he's cute, but he says or does something that turns her off, or she finds out he has a boyfriend etc. Simply thinking somebody is good looking and wanting to get to know them to find out if there's relationship potential =/= just assuming every girl could be a girlfriend to you and ignoring all contrary points.

>find out he has a boyfriend
I meant to say girlfriend* lol

The unfortunate fact is just that it doesn't really work that way. It's not fair, I know. In a perfect world, it would be a little slower to develop. But you're buying into a concept that personality overwhelmingly trumps sexuality, which it doesn't... and that dating is designed to be that friendship phase. You go on dates, you learn about each other, you have some intimacy, it builds. Now you're just doing it in a more transparent environment.

The biggest issue I see here is that you're failing to acknowledge real chemistry. The qualifiers are simply "nice, legal, and pretty?" I know I'm simplifying it too much, so I apologize, I'm not giving you shit. But even if you're claiming you're not viewing every girl as a potential partner, it sure sounds like you are, with the low barrier to entry here.

Why not stand firm, and when a girl fits your entry criteria, make it clear you're interested, instead of being her best pal until she has no clue you've ever found her sexually attractive?

You're not crazy, FYI, it's just that you're being encouraged to date a true friend if there's genuine chemistry that's been developed, not through the experimental "I don't even know about this person yet and want to know more" feeling.

In 62% of relationships in which only one partner is violent, the victimizer was the woman, compared to 38% for men. Overall 9% of women reported themselves as being the victimizer compared to just 3% of men.

Billingham, R. E., & Sack, A. R. (1986). Courtship Violence and the Interactive Status of the Relationship. Journal of Adolescent Research, 1(3), 315–325. doi.org/10.1177/074355488613006

It's a beta move. You're supposed to make your intentions clear and kiss her on the first date

>it doesn't really work that way
It's worked this way for me previously, so I'll have to respectfully disagree.

>personality overwhelmingly trumps sexuality
I'm not really sure what your point is. As a guy, I am very unlikely to want to have sex with a woman I don't know well enough to think she won't hurt me. I know myself well enough that I know that sex will make me feel attached to her, and so I need to feel comfortable before it happens. I'm not saying people don't hook up in the heat of the moment, or that it's even bad to get sexual quickly - I just don't want to personally.

>real chemistry
Yeah, maybe I should have. I figured that was obvious though, as the "everything in between".

>your qualifiers are nice, legal and pretty?
That's far from an extensive list of what I look for in a partner. What I meant was that's all I would need to know in order to approach a woman and talk to her, with the *sole* intention of getting to know her better and deciding from there if I want to pursue anything further. I cannot possibly have this laundry list of things I want in somebody and expect to check it all off before I even talk to her, much less ask her out on a date. The more important stuff like shared values or mutual desire to explore something together and see if there is chemistry, would be revealed only after I approach her.

>low barrier to entry
I mean, since not every girl is all that nice, and not every girl is going to be "pretty" in the sense that I personally find her physically attractive, and many women aren't single etc...it's actually not that low. At least I don't think so.

Neither Sage Journals nor DOIS are good sources of information. And you're citing a study that's been dated 32 years ago. :/

>1986

Dude, you do you. I don't date anyone I'm not head over heels for and am willing to sacrifice things for (which is just about no-one anymore). I have no problem with someone standing by their principles. But just don't throw a fit when you find yourself stuck swimming upstream and you get shut down by a "friend."

Also, I really, really dislike the
>I am very unlikely to want to have sex with a woman I don't know well enough to think she won't hurt me.
comment. That's some shit man. You're walking into relationships afraid. Bad move, sad way to approach things.

>don't be afraid when you start a new relationship
Says the due insisting dating a friend is a bad idea because of his fear that things won't work out and all this drama will ensue, lol

I'm not sure what you interpreted from my statement, but it's probably the wrong thing. Refer to my earlier post where I cited emotional unavailability and her being someone else as massive deal breakers. These directly tie into the strong likelihood that she will hurt me, and any strong/inarguable evidence that either of these are true are going to send me packing. Or are you really going to argue with me that I should chance it with someone who's displayed serious emotional/commitment issues??

What if the only thing I want is having a friend of the opposite sex?
I would want to have cool sis to have fun, share stuff and play vidyagams.

Why is it so complicated bros/sisters.

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Because the only reason any of us are alive is that men and women fucked each other.

You're misreading my post, then. Look at where we are. Most guys on Jow Forums are going to uncomfortably pine over a girl they're unwilling to express their interest or attraction to until it's too late. I'll believe you that you're not ending up here, but I do so with a lot of doubt.

I'm not going to argue with you that you should chance what you're saying, but again, consider your audience. Last night I sat in a thread here with a guy who was considering dating ugly girls because they'd be less prone to leave him.

I have a difficult time believing you have a bunch of unending success dating girls who are your close friends, or that maybe we have a different perception of what the word friends means, but it's all good.

As long as you're not letting fear navigate how you date, we're good.

So is there no chance for a failed product who gives no interest in fucking either females or males to have a sis?

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The "women you know" aren't attracted to you.
The men who say this were friends with a girl who was attracted to them.

I didn't say unending success occurred between and my friends, nor did I even imply it. All I'm saying is that it's happened before, and that the relationships that lasted the longest and felt the best were with women I had known already for months and years, and would've called friends previous to that formal dating stage. I've been rejected by friends before. I've tested the waters with female friends until one or both of us decided it wasn't going to work and ceased trying to be more. I've also met women through other means like Tinder or just being introduced by another friend and establishing mutual attraction pretty quickly. In all of those cases though, they not only didn't work out, but they seemed to fail much quicker and not go nearly as far as the relationships I had with women i'd known for a longer period of time.

>we have a different idea of what friends means
Maybe.

>unwilling to express interest or attraction until it's too late
I think it'll either work out or not, and timing can matter but there's no point rushing it. You get to know her and ask her out/escalate when it feels appropriate and you want to, not because somebody on Jow Forums said you need to fuck her by X date or you'll be friendzoned forever.

Chad always tells me to just run gambits and lie

When we give advice here, we're just playing the odds, man. You've got one experience, but most people would say the opposite... that taking your time and trying to express your attraction long after 15 other guys have expressed it is probably a losing game.

You're dragging it to the opposite end of the spectrum, making it all about sex, but the odds of most people here developing this meaningful long attraction based off of common interests and sparkling, engaging personalities, is kinda poor.

>after 15 other guys expressed it
By sending dick pictures, "negging" her, being creepy/weird in general. This all comes from female friends and acquaintances: a lot of guys have creepy or just plain bad approaches. Coworkers who are women receive numerous unwanted advances and are constantly hit on.

Most of the women I know have said they are very picky, so even just one or two dates with a guy doesn't mean she will sleep with him, let alone keep seeing him.
It also does not prove one way or the other that she wouldn't be at least open to her "friend" who seems cute and has stuff in common with her; that interest in getting to know him is not the same as her wanting to fuck his brains out or marry him.

Yeah, you wanna make a move and not waste too much time. But being too eager and moving too fast can put a lot of girls off even if they do like you initially.

Seriously, you're basically advising him to commit sexual misconduct. :/

Right, maybe because you're still under the age of 23. Meanwhile, I'm the guy who has met your friend, made out at the bar with them night one, and expressed I would like to hang out again, all without resorting to any of that shit, or trying to drag her home for a night one fuck.

I'm the guy who makes a little physical contact with her while you tuck your hands in your pockets and wait for the chance to see her again when your friends want to get together.

I hate when most of the foreveralones on this board give this shitty advice, but it applies to this conversation - your girlfriends aren't giving you real advice. They're giving you the perfect advice they think makes sense from how they're supposed to act. You're talking to me about how you think you're supposed to act, vs. what actually works. In reality, most of them are going to be charmed by the exciting moments of meeting someone for the first time, the associated adrenaline rush, the thought of something new.

>commit sexual misconduct
Bait, next we'll be talking about sexual consent forms.

Not every woman you talk to and hit on is going to make out with you. Not every woman is going to desire you that way. This applies if you're friends first or just met her for the first time.

>wait for the chance
You're assuming/projecting a lot. I ask out girls when I'm into them. They either reject me, or they say yes and we proceed. For some reason, you're really desperate to think anyone who doesn't approach relationships like you is stupid and wrong. I mean seriously, you're getting really weird and defensive about the fact that not everyone finds relationship success by physically escalating so soon.

>most of them are going to be charmed by the exciting moments of meeting someone
That doesn't mean she likes him that way and will go out with him.

That doesn't mean she will have sex with him.

That doesn't mean she isn't just being nice but already has a boyfriend or just isn't interested.

Most people like it and feel flattered if someone hits on them in a non creepy way. That doesn't mean they will reciprocate. By your own admission, a girl gets hit on a lot, and it's not reasonable for her to date all the guys that hit on her even if they're not all that bad.

I'm getting defensive because you're giving awful advice to a bunch of kids or incels who are going to think they're going to get their perfect virgin waifu by just "waiting for the right time," which is never going to come in their minds.

I've repeated several times that you're not completely wrong, but you need to know your audience.

>everyone on advice is a virgin teen or incel
Wew lad.

So the alternative is to tell these incels etc. to just go to a bar and start making out with girls? I don't know what you're suggesting. Neither of our advice works on everyone, and I never suggested that being friends first is the only way to go, just that it's worked out favorably for me and I don't think it should just be dismissed outright.