GF loves abortion

Just a catchy title user, my beliefs don't come from Jesus or religion, if its heart is beating it's alive.

>a human body
It's barely human, it looks like a tadpole and can't survive outside the womb.

what exactly is the argument for keeping it alive without ant exceptions even if its just going to live a shitty life until probably killing itself?

>if its heart is beating it's alive.
Tell that to the people who are in brain-dead comas hooked up to respirators and IVs.

A baby wouldn't survive without care until it's like 14, should we allow throwing children off buildings now too? They're barely people their brains still not developed until 25!

"Inconvenient"
Why do you people always use that term? Birthing a kid irreversibly changes your body. It can kill you, it can lead to chronic illnesses, it can send you into a deep state of depression.
A person suddenly exists and will one day die a horrible death.
At that point they have no nervous system, they can not feel pain, they have no will, no instinct, no family, no attachment to this world. Aborting a fetus in that stage is an act of mercy.

There's a simple solution to this problem, OP:

If you don't want her to ever have an abortion - don't GIVE HER A REASON to have one. Wrap your peepee up before sex and put her ass on birth control. Sperm is the cause of unwanted pregnancies, so don't contribute yours to the cause. The end.

>without care
Not the same thing as biologically being unable to survive for more than a few seconds before drying up like the simple organism that it is.

Because being killed is worse than being sad? Life isn't fair, that doesnt give you license to kill.

>kill

abortion literally isn't murder. Roe v Wade established that.

Not existing is better than a life of misery. I wish I had been aborted. The only reason I haven't killed myself yet is because my parents would be emotionally destroyed. I have a multitude of mental illnesses which will never go away.

Good thing i didn't say murder then right?
Abortion is ending a life, doesnt matter what you call it
That's nonsense I cant make the choice of suicide for you, circumcision is wrong too for a similar reason, you can't make these choices for babies, and not existing is NOT better because you dont feel relief you just aren't there at all there's no END for you to feel

It is better, because you never feel anything. It's the same outcome as the pregnancy never occurring. Do you think that every sperm and egg that didn't occur as a result of contraceptive is an act of murder? In the end the result is the same: preventing a human from forming. What gives you the right to force someone into existence? They didn't choose to be born.

Sperm and eggs have to be combined to make a person, you honestly believe if you asked people they'd think being killed in the womb is better than being alive? Just because you're depressed doesn't mean everyone thinks life is worse than death

A lot of the children foster system do. They're 4x more likely to commit suicide than the general population. Again, what's wrong with never existing?
You do not have a will to live before your brain is functional.
If a sperm and egg would meet but don't due to contraceptive, is that not murder? The outcome is the same. A person could've formed did not due to your own intervention. The same occurs during early term abortion. The fetus stops forming, and is expelled by the body.
Also, should IVF be illegal?

>ending a life
So is taking antibiotics and masturbating

>Sperm and eggs have to be combined to make a person
Those are also alive.

No dingus the result is not the same, you are the same organism created when your dad's sperm combined with mom's egg. You didn't BECOME something different at some random point after birth

I was not myself until I developed a consciousness in the third trimester. But by your logic I'm also my mother's egg and my father's sperm, and preventing them from meeting would be murder.

What are you talking about, what are they teaching in biology these days. Sperm and eggs aren't shit until they come together.

Also, let me ask you again. Should IVF be illegal?

Don't put your weird sperm logic on me you're inventing an insane argument

Sperm and eggs are haploid cells containing all of the genetic information that becomes a fetus. The are two halves of one whole.

What? Who cares how a fetus is conceived
Yea. Halves. Not a whole, once they make the whole it's the beginning of an actual human

>Yea. Halves.
They're still living organisms

In the process of IVF dozens of embryos are created and only a handful are used, and even fewer implant. Isn't that comparable to mass homicide or child sacrifice if abortion is murder?

Nothing is added when sperm cells and egg cells meet. They didn't create anything new, they merely combine.

So is a plant what is your point, its not a human organism until it's DNA is wholly formed when they meet

Well that is a compelling argument against ivf actually, I'll have to think on that thanks

I said life starts at the heart beat, just because I recognize an organism is human at conception doesn't mean i think that's where life begins

Who are you and where did you say this? Why does the contraption of muscle fibres denote human life and not the development of the nervous system (more specifically our brains), which is the one thing that separates us from all other living beings? A mouse has a heartbeat but we exterminate them when they're even less of an inconvenience to us.

Sounds like your problem. Anti-abortion crowd, as per this thread and the fact that you post this thread every day, tend to be crazy. People die every day in preventable fashion but no one bats an eye. Kidney donations? Bone Marrow donation? Blood donations? Cops don't even have an obligation to help people they pass by while on duty. No person has any obligation to care for another. If you wouldn't have an abortion yourself, if you are on kidney donation lists, if you donate blood every x weeks, if you are signed up to donate organs in the event of your death, great, but most people believe in freedom.

A mouse isnt a human, I'm not against hunting either.

People don't believe in freedom to kill, they just think a human isn't a person until whatever point they've imagined life starts

I'm thankful my bf isn't some "pro-life" cunt

What gives a human life more value at such a point? I do not believe you are truly a person until 23 weeks of development. That is when your cognitive function is capable of REM and dreaming.
Before then you do not have cognitive function even comparable to a dog. Before 12 weeks it is not even that of a mosquito. The only thing separating you from these creatures at such stages is your genetic code. Something present before even your conception.

Do you believe in UBI, universal healthcare and free tuition?

99.99% of pro "life" folks only care about the pile of half-baked cum that is the tiny frog-shaped fetus. As soon as it's born all it gets it a kick up the ass and a "good luck" and they're left to fend for themselves working minimum wage jobs to eventually accumulate debt from student loans and medical bills before accidentally killing themselves from an overdose. Pro life people don't care one bit what happens to their precious babies once they're unleashed into the world. They don't actually care about human life.

Im thankful i don't know a cold hearted person like you
Because heart beat is our current measurement of life or death in a person, youre declared dead when it stops beating.
I don't really know how to feel about those issues but it's insanely off topic, somehow this thread has just become about how terrible i am instead helping me get over my difference in opinion with my loved one which, trying to avoid, is why I posted on Jow Forums instead of Reddit.

You're not declared dead when your heart stops beating. Cardiac arrest is more common than you'd think. You're declared dead when your brain no longer functions.

>it's insanely off topic
Like I said, pro-life people have all the concern in the world for humans - as soon as they're born at which point it's like "fuck you, get a job, the nanny state isn't here to help you it's only there to make sure no one gets abortions"

So what if i think someone has the right to live I have to adopt them? I said i don't know how to feel about your off topic issues i didn't throw them out outright. Why are you even here?

Yeah OP this is going to be hard because abortion laws first and foremost concern women. It is difficult enough to navigate a big ethical difference without (and this is what it's going to feel like for her) you throwing her rights and bodily autonomy under the bus for your belief. And, probably, believing your opinion on abortion matters as much as hers even though it will never impact you as intimate and personally as it could impact her.

If you really, honestly love her and want to save the relationship, tell her that you are a lot more conservative on abortion and ask her to start from scratch with her arguments. Even if you still disagree 100% at least you show willingness in hearing her out properly.

And lose the "if it's a heartbeat it lives" line. Abortion is a lot more complex than that. Just like lines like "it's just a bunch of cells!!" it's technically right but really misses the fucking point.

They didn't ask to be alive though. How can you give rights to something that has no will? It would be like giving human rights to tapeworms.

Human have no right to suck blood and bone marrow out of other humans and that's what fetuses do. It's a vampire. Kill the vampire.

If there was a mosquito in your room, you would kill it wouldn't you? But why though? It's a living organism. It's murder just like abortions. An embryo living in it's mothers womb is so premature that it has no consciousness like you or i do. And that's why abortion is different from actually killing a living human.

I'm not pro abortion. I don't think anyone is. We are all aware that abortion has negative consequences. When people choose for abortion, they don't do it because they 'want to', they do it because in certain circumstances, it's the lesser of 2 evils. I would rather remove an embryo, than seeing a woman bearing a child from being raped for example. If you don't believe a woman should have the right to take an abortion when she becomes pregnant from rape, you honestly don't even deserve to be alive yourself.

>human lives
>off topic

The baby can be tossed over to the state that can stuff it in an orphanage where it can be raped for the pleasure of pedophiles.

The fetus leeches blood out of the woman. The fetus uses the woman's organs against her consent, sex is not consent to pregnancy, especially if she used birth control and the fucked attacked her in spit of it.

No human has the right to steal another human's organs. The fetus can live outside the woman, not her problem if it can't. If you don't agree with this, hand over your liver and kidney bucko your organs are not under your control anymore.

Im not under the impression pregnancy and childbirth are FUN, I wish technology would progress enough that you can just take the thing out without having to kill it but I can't get over the fact that you're killing a human because it committed the crime of being created, it just isn't right. I don't think people who believe abortion is ok are maliciously killing children I just don't want to have to listen to people try and rationalise life away because they don't want it to be this way and be told I'm some tyrant monster for not agreeing

>be told I'm some tyrant monster for not agreeing

You don't believe abortion should exist, right?

Yeah, it shouldn't have existed. Its fault it did, and now it's getting its just punishment for it. As it deserves, the hateful fucker.

All these males complaining about "ending a life" and not giving a shit about the quality of life of women, disgusting really.

>Im not under the impression pregnancy and childbirth are FUN
It's not about fun. Around 15% of women who gave birth suffer from postpartum depression, which in the best case scenario is just, well, bleakness and dread/suicidal thoughts, and in the worst case scenario fully fledged psychosis.
Pregnancy comes with health risks, women dying while giving birth is a rarity in developed western countries but definitely still occurs. Even if not, it is stigmatized and not discussed often but the body changes after pregnancy and long term pain or complaints like urine loss are not freak cases but common occurrences. This is still disregarding that a "normal" delivery is hours of pain and humiliation, and the vagina either tearing or being cut open to prevent natural tearing is a normal part of it.
After the pregnancy it depends on a lot of factors how well the body bounces back, but genetics is the absolute #1. Having handfuls of extra deflated skin, a permanently protruding stomach because the organs shifted and did not neatly go back to their old place, or stomach skin that looks like cracked earth happens all the time.

This is still disregarding the context, these are just the default risks for women who are wanting to have a child and carrying a healthy baby. Let alone what it's like for a girl carrying the child of her rapist, who violated and soiled her body and now planted a child in her.

Once the baby is born, women do the lion's share of child-rearing, they will have to wake up 2-5 times a night to feed, they will have their nipples chewed to shit, they will spend the most time with the child, do most of the disciplining, be the "bad cop" to the fun dad - if there even is a dad.

We also know the deep, often life-long damage from feeling as a child that you were unwanted and/or there was no time, energy or resources for you.

No sane person feels a-okay with the idea of killing even the potential of human life, it's about picking battles.

>How can I get over our difference of opinion about abortion?
Don't have one? How is this even an issue. Just completely ignore the entire thing until you accidentally knock her up and then it's an issue worth potentially breaking up over.

And yes you saying to your girlfriend that you think she should be a vessel for any start of any life if that situation arose, that you hold the moral high ground while she can take the beating of actually carrying and bringing a child into this world, that's disrespectful.

I don't think that men should not be allowed an opinion on abortion but be aware that you don't actually do the heavy lifting here. That you are not going to pay the price for abortion being potentially illegal.

None of that is the fault of the child. It's wrong to kill a human that is created through no fault of its own. Adoption is always better than death if you don't want to keep it.

>don't solve a problem now, wait until her future is in danger so you can blackmail her easier
I hope she leaves you OP, and this user and you both get killed.

>fuck gf without protection and cum inside her as deep as you can
>get her pregnant
>"just abort it lmao"
>absolute madwoman actually does it because she's strong and independent and 100% in control of her body
>develops all sorts of fucked up mental trauma and mother complexes
>becomes a shell of the woman she once was and will do everything you ask her
>fill her belly up with babies until she's stuck with 10+ little ankle biters
>start own dynasty
You've got this, OP. Godspeed.

If i could take the burden i would what do you think it makes me happy to say a women should be forced to carry a child? Its horrifying, that doesn't make it okay to kill it it didnt do anything through its own will to cause hurt

The vampire is sucking away her blood and bones against her will, that is its fault and it must be stopped. It has no right to steal her organs from her. It deserves to get thrown out just for that, whatever happens to it is its problem.

No one is saying it is. Just that you should view it within context. It's not "shall we kill a fetus or shall we not kill a fetus". It's "do we care more about the right to life of a fetus, or about the bodily autonomy and rights of a grown woman".

It has pretty hefty implications to think that should take a backseat to the life of a fetus. People cannot be forced to donate tissue to save someone's life, for example. How can you defend that I am legally allowed to let my own mother die because I don't want to give her a part of my liver or whatever, but I am not allowed to terminate life that hasn't come into the world yet and is going to uproot my body and life?

>Adoption is always better than death
Arguable, because fostercare and varieties are no walk in the park by a long fucking shot and often set up kids for a terrible life. And abortion takes care of the actual parenting aspect but not of the initial question of bodily autonomy.

So you want to steal a woman's organs from her, you want her not to be in control of her organs anymore? Hand over your lungs. It's leeching blood off her, it's causing her pain and vomit and damaging her health and ability to do anything, it's restricting her freedom, it is causing hurt to her. She has the right to remove the leech from her uterus. A girl I know nearly killed herself with alcohol just to refuse the infesting pest, are you going to dictate what she can drink too? And you call that "not causing hurt'?

Everyone loves to be molested and abused in foster homes!

It's hilarious how the sanctity of life absolutely stops at childbirth for you people.

I respect the argument about organ donation but c'mon you cant honestly believe people would rather be dead than adopted. Youd be killing someone because theres a chance they might be depressed? Everyone gets depressed that's why they fall it the common cold of mental illness

Well if you start saying pregnancy isn't fun, like it's an inconvenience, that doesn't really help with believing you understand the gravity of the sacrifice you are expecting of someone here no.

And you cannot take the burden and honestly, though the sentiment is sympathetic, that makes it meaningless to say you would. This is a 100% non-risk to you. It's literally not your problem to deal with.

>Adoption is always better than death
Try telling that to my best friend who killed herself at the age of 14 after being split from her brother by the adoption system.

>>i knew a girl who suicided so killing innocents is ok, it's just preemptive suicide!

Well the abandoned kids in Romania when Ceaucescu banned abortion sure pleaded to be killed because their parents dumped them in orphanages and the medical staff loved to rape them silly. Are you okay with selling unwanted children to pedophile rings? If you say no, then you are a piece of shit because you're not okay with impacting children's quality of life but you sure are okay with impacting women's quality of life you shit bastard. If being alive is all that matters, they can be sold to rapists just like you want to force women into carrying pregnancies, you don't get to selectively care about the life quality of one and not the other.

Not true, speaking for myself I'd love to have been an abortion instead of the life I'm currently living and I'm pretty sure there are plenty of people like me. Not everyone has the luxury of having normal functional family.

This argument is pathetically unconvincing i can't believe so many think it's a good point

My father survived an abortion attempt, I never outright asked if he'd rather have died because well, I'm his kid and I'm not really prepared to hear an honest answer. But I am quite sure that he has ambivalent feelings about it to say the least. His mom already couldn't deal with the four kids she had. She fell into a deep depression when he was born and he was removed from home for some time at age two. Most likely (though no clear memories) sexually abused during that time too, he fits all the classic signs at least.

On paper his life was a success, he had a family, is still together with my mother in a somewhat okay marriage, worked jobs etc. But he has been haunted his entire life by knowing deep down he was unwanted and it has caused a myriad of issues that have made it really difficult for him to live a good life. I am quite sure, because he's been open about that on rare occasions, that he regards himself a broken person and his life a failure.

We are animals hard-wired to want and choose life no matter what deal we get. Of course once you're alive (and not deeply depressed) you're going to say you want to live. What does that really mean? That is not a question possible to answer for mortals. I do know that foster care and the likes are hugely likely to cause trauma in children's development. Put a bunch of troubled kids together and you're going to get violence, sexual games, you name it. That's just how it is. And the way the psyche works, no matter how much we love the happy ending stories, it is the exception and not the rule for people to rise above a poor start in life. Isolation, poverty, rejection etc breed further issues. The unwanted kid grows into a troubled teen coming into contact with other troubled teens and so on.

In theory a lot can be saved but you need good, grounded, loving people to give endless patience, time, energy and money to distrustful, damaged and hostile kids.

Removing a parasite is always ok. Get your own body to leech off, parasite.

Not existing vs....
Highly probably chance of suffering and death.
What part of those who doesn't exist not having a will to live do you people not get? You're imprinting your will to live onto something that has no functional nervous system.

If you were in a coma and the doctor said high odds you'll be fine in a few months, would that make it okay to pull the plug before then?

What's so unconvincing about it? You don't believe that some people have shitty lives or shitty families?

The only true pro abortion people that I respect are the ones who take it to its logical conclusion and think infanticide should be legalized, at least they're intellectually honest.

What exactly even is the anti-abortion argument if it's not "babies need to be baptized before they die otherwise they go to hell" religious bullshit?

I don't believe assuming "itd probably rather be dead anyway" is a good argument. You can't make these choices for other people

At that point you exist. You are a fully developed human being, you have loved ones that would be hurt by your passing, you have aspirations, duties, etc. A fetus doesn't even have a functioning brain.

Are you stealing someone else's blood and bones and organs to stay in that coma? Not only is it okay for that person to free themselves of you, they also have the right to take your organs for your attempt to take their organs from them. Say goodbye to your lungs and kidneys.

It's an innocent human and you don't kill innocent humans.

In practice, most often it's "we hate the idea of fetuses being killed and the issues like illegal abortions, unwanted babies with no future etc are out of sight and out of mind".

A fetus exists, just because it's early doesn't mean its worthless, baby barely has an cognitive ability at all, it has no sense of self and won't be done developing until mid twenties why isnt it acceptable to kill a baby up until it can have aspirations etc

The coma argument is retarded because if OP were in a coma attached to another person, the other person sure has the right to cut off everything that ties them to OP and walk away from them to live their life. OP doesn't have the right to force another person into slavery for them, depriving that person of their liberty, and neither does the fetus.

You shouldn't bring up innocent humans into the worst possible living conditions either where they just end up killing themselves or going on a shooting spree anyways.

Because during the pregnancy the fetus and the mother literally share a body and while the fetus is (potentially) an independent being they rely on the sacrifice of the mother to actually develop.

At least, this is the ethical argument, the practical argument is that not allowing abortion means it's mostly young, poor, uneducated girls with no future popping out babies that also have no future that come to life instead of being aborted. And it's arguable if that is in the children's best interests.

Ultimately the big issue is that we just don't know what makes someone live (whether a "soul" exists) and what happens when you die. Say people do have a soul that can just be inserted in another fetus then it's a complete non-issue, but there is no way of knowing.

A baby is cognitively functional and aware of its existence in the most basic of ways at the very least. It cries when it's hungry, it forms bonds with its caretakers. It can see, hear, touch, taste. All of these things which a 6 week old fetus can not. It's like comparing a rock to a puppy.

I'm gonna be honest i don't see the problem with abortion. As an ex-fetus i can confirm that I would not have cared if i was aborted

Because the baby can be tossed over to someone else. We often do kill babies when it's one of a pair of conjoined twins because it being attached to someone else's body makes it impossible for other to live their life how they want it, and liberty is a fundamental right. A fetus inevitably violates the woman's fundamental right to liberty, thus why it's okay to kill it.

If we don't KNOW why are we erring on the side of death?

Because erring on the side of slavery is worse.

That's like saying if im walking down the street and someone stands in my way i have the right to kill him. He's depriving me of my liberty to walk where i want!

Because there's consequences to both choices, betting on life for the fetus means reducing women to their wombs, baby vessels.

This is still disregarding that the quality of life of a given fetus that would've been aborted is going to suck on average compared to a desired child. Money issues and/or issues with drugs are very common reasons to terminate a pregnancy.

A fetus can't walk down the street. It would drift into a storm drain or dry up on the sidewalk like a worm.