Am I wrong about woman?

>someone who must be stable enough in character to make something out of himself.

Wrong. Someone can get rich by fooling others.

>not sure what you mean with your other arguments
are you a girl?

>of course, when you're a loser who doesn't have anything going for him, you would do better to stick to women on the same level.
She's not even close to his level, really. But she's trying to attract him using sex.

>or moan about how unfair and evil women are, and how you're not going to bother with them, because you're the ultimate gift to women instead of all those other guys.
I'm not moaning, you're not making any sense.

Yes, I think that's the game.

Men are attracted by sex, so a woman knows, instinctively that she needs to use sex to attract men with status.

If she's more K in her sexual behavior, she'll go for one man and will use this instinct for him.

If she's more R she'll use that to attract attention of multiple men, and maybe set for one later in life, or extract resource from multiple men.

The point is that, as a man, I don't see any reason to go for K selection, because it doesn't sense to me if women are manipulative.

fooling others for his own advantage is still good. just like girls try to use their looks to get an edge and attract people 'out of their league'. and the moaning part was meant in a broader general sense, not about you.

and yes, i'm a girl. i'm also going to dare speculate that you're overestimating the emotional intelligence of most people. for example an acquaintance once made a big speech about how awful another girl was for seemingly going after a guy because of just his money, how she would never ever understand how people could do that, woe is me. a few weeks later she bragged what a 'huge bachelor patch' penthouse apartment her husband had when they met.

hypocritical, right? well, she wasn't even aware of it.

>To me, life operates in degrees of manipulation, both good and bad.
I see. But that's not my point.

>The thing I've most noticed is that some people want to build relationships with other for support and some people want to use others for their support.
True.

>I've developed this perception from many decades of actually speaking and developing close relationships with people.
I've tried and they always makes you stop to do things you like to do and live solely for them. Ultimately breaking your will.

>. I've developed this perception from many decades of actually speaking and developing close relationships with people. So if you believe that women are all manipulative and all the same its because that perception satisfies some kind of inner compulsion for you. You need to believe these things in order to feel comfortable with your sense of reality.
It sure feels like they're the same, but it's not because I want to satisfy any compulsion. That doesn't make sense.

The use of makeup and smartly chosen selfies already prove itself as something manipulative. Just use a common picture.

Looking into my crystal ball, I see the following in your future: being alone. Good luck.

>fooling others for his own advantage is still good.
wat? Not for society.

>and yes, i'm a girl.
I see.

>you're overestimating the emotional intelligence of most people.
hmmm

>a few weeks later she bragged what a 'huge bachelor patch' penthouse apartment her husband had when they met.
Yeah. I think the female goes into K selection if the male can provide a lot. Or enough for a good life.

Depends, it's hard to make a relationship last for more than 1~2 years. The problem is that there's no intimacy, the bright side is that you can hook up a lot.

Nature, though, eventually will bother my mind for having children.

That's the main issue, I guess. I'd like to have children with someone who's good. But will it worth it?

Everything is mainly reproduction.

>I see. But that's not my point.
It most certainly is relevant. You use the word "manipulation" in an exclusively negative context but that isn't the way real life is. Buying someone gifts or doing something nice for them so that they'll feel more attached to you or be happy is a form of manipulation. I'm doing something for someone who is, in turn, providing me with something either tangible or intangible in return. Just because I'm trying to influence the way someone feels or the way they view me does not mean it is inherently malicious.

>I've tried and they always makes you stop to do things you like to do and live solely for them. Ultimately breaking your will.
Again, I'm a 35 year old man and I haven't even remotely had this same experience. I've gone through what you're talking about before but, again, I've met a lot of different kinds of people. I don't ever recall anybody, man or woman, breaking my will.

>It sure feels like they're the same, but it's not because I want to satisfy any compulsion.
Of course it does. Everyone operates this way. Our perceptions are specifically built to help us make sense of the world and the way we interact with it. Humans excel and externalizing our deepest, most troubling traumas. We tend to process people and things in the world based solely on how we need them to appear, not on how they actually do.

>The use of makeup and smartly chosen selfies already prove itself as something manipulative. Just use a common picture.
Again, you use an exclusively negative context to describe this; as if it is inherently a negative personality trait to want other people to think you look nice. Everyone practices a form of attention seeking behavior, user. We all need validation in our own ways. While I agree that attention seeking behavior can turn obsessive and toxic it is not inherently negative or maliciously manipulative for someone to want other people to see them in a positive light. We all want that.

>As long as I obscure the truth and deceive others to make me look nice, it isn't manipulation because it's not malicious

This is how retarded you sound.

>he worries about society

wew lad, good luck white-knighting your way through life while your peers surpass you en masse. and if you think makeup is the epitome of evil, or other tools people will use to show themselves in a better light like going to the gym, you're in for a rough ride. or, as the other user said, a lonely ride. good luck

go to asia for a surrogate. your disney dream of someone falling in love with you at first sight for no reason at all isn't realistic.

lads why are you even bothering with OP? he obviously doesn’t want any advice. he’s just looking to argue

meh, adv is slow atm. i'm giong back to fit and vg

>You use the word "manipulation" in an exclusively negative context but that isn't the way real life is.
true

>Buying someone gifts or doing something nice for them so that they'll feel more attached to you or be happy is a form of manipulation.
Yes, it can be true. Normally, no one give gifts for nothing.

>I'm doing something for someone who is, in turn, providing me with something either tangible or intangible in return. Just because I'm trying to influence the way someone feels or the way they view me does not mean it is inherently malicious.
True, the main issue is that I'm seeing sexual manipulation, for both sides, actually, as something evil. But inherently it is not.

Yet, It doesn't make sense for me to go into a relationship like this, I'm too aware of it. What is it that'll make a long term relationship worth? I can only think of children.

>I'm a 35 year old man and I haven't even remotely had this same experience.
I'm not american though, is that cultural?

What I meant is that, they try to take away anything that makes you who you're, so you can only focus on the relationship. I won't even start about the drama. So it's hard to continue with your hobbies and stuff.

>Our perceptions are specifically built to help us make sense of the world and the way we interact with it.
I don't think it's about trauma, but more about the reticular activating system (RAS) in the brain. Hard to turn it off.

continued:

>it is inherently a negative personality trait to want other people to think you look nice.
That's not the point, the point is that makeup is not making you looking nicer, it's covering your flaws. I don't cover my flaws, I even have some scars.

But there's another side to this coin, if she doesn't manipulate the pictures with filters, makeup, smart angles... others will. They'll win in this "sexual market".

And since men are dumb and always look first for sex, then it makes no sense to show other abilities first. Because sex can't even compare to the rest.

In general, yes but men can find away around to resist that kind of temptation. Works for a lot of guys I know. The reason guys desperately try to find someone to sleep with is from societal pressure, not always because they're so horny they can't find a way to contain themselves.

good job not comprehending the overall point of his post and picking out some lame incongruity that isnt of consequence bro great job on that

>True, the main issue is that I'm seeing sexual manipulation, for both sides, actually, as something evil. But inherently it is not.
So you at least understand on some level that some of the things you've internalized aren't exactly logical on an objective scale.

>What is it that'll make a long term relationship worth? I can only think of children.
That's a pretty personal question but for me a long term relationship is about support and sacrifice. The things that individual people need to feel secure in a relationship are all different. A successful long term relationship is not one singular formula. The kind of person I do well with in long term relationships are people who are communicative, supportive and willing to endure discomfort or sacrifice for the sake of elevating and maintaining our relationship. The true measure of a relationship is not how great things are when there are no hurdles to get over. Adversity is what really tests bonds.

>I'm not american though, is that cultural?
It very may well be. As I said, I'm not saying that your experiences aren't real, I'm just saying that don't adopt the mentality that just because your house is on the beach that the whole world is covered in sand, if that makes sense.

>the point is that makeup is not making you looking nicer, it's covering your flaws. I don't cover my flaws, I even have some scars.
Who are you or I to tell other people what does and doesn't make them look nicer? Some people tattoo their faces and split their tongues and feel great about themselves. I hardly see how its anybody's place to look at someone and tell them that the things that make them feel good about themselves aren't legitimate. That's the thing about self-perception, user; you don't get to decide that for anybody else and nobody else gets to decide it for you. Maybe you make the decision not to cover your flaws but not everybody is you, user. I think your perceptions lack a lot of worldly perspective.

how is what he said silly you dumb fucking whore. women are inherently sexual by virtue of having passive behavior and prominent secondary sex characteristics as well as the ability to bear children. this doesn't leave us much doubt as to why they would characterize themselves based on those features in the exact same way that men characterize themselves on their inherent features of biology... whore.
Either refute his shit or dont say anything bitch who the fuck do you think you are saying his suspicions are silly and that he's probably a social failure. how come your assumptions about him are any less silly than his notions about women? why are your notions about 'social failures' credible but his aren't? dumb bitch provide a basis for your shit or dont talk at all.

Singing to a baby while its upset is manipulating it to calm down. Rewarding your child with money or outings if they do well in school is manipulating them to do homework. Picking out really nice clothes you think makes you look better is manipulating others into finding you more attractive. Surprising your mother with a present on mother's day is manipulating her into being happy and pleased with you. Her expression of happiness when you give her this gift makes you feel good and accepted and loved. Making other people feel good often makes us feel good. You're specifically choosing to view all of these terms in a negative context because your understanding of them is extremely childish and one-dimensional.

ah yes the world is one big neutral stage where everything is equally attenuated and no generalizations can be made whatsoever ah yes the bourgeois whore mindset... shut the fuck up.

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Calm down, Elliot Rogers. Its not that user's fault you're an angry KHV.

Is down today? Sure is a lot of you incels wandering out of your pens.

>Am I wrong about woman?
You're not "wrong" because you're generalizing.
In the same way I'm not wrong by saying black people are generally criminals.

See what I did there?

You're wrong however, in contrasting women's manipulation to men's.
There's no difference in prevalence here. Just different methods to acquire different things.

Both men and women are manipulative in general.
Keyword: general.

Protip: don't generalize too much. It's a bad habit.

>KHV

This is an example of what I'm talking about, the label of the kissless hugless virgin. The bane of the modern man.

You’re so wrong my dude. I get up and do shit for myself daily. I have a bf but I would be fine on my own as well. I deleted all social media except snap because I hate texting. I don’t post pics of myself or try manipulate anyone

Stop seeing women as a constant in a math problem and start seeing them as individual people.

If you're asking this because you're desperate for companionship, you need to learn to deal with your autism

>So you at least understand on some level that some of the things you've internalized aren't exactly logical on an objective scale.
It is logical. But it's not evil. It's unethical.

Actually I never thought it was evil, you implanted that thought there and I rode along with it. It's unethical, not evil.

>That's a pretty personal question but for me a long term relationship is about support and sacrifice.
With someone who's manipulative? Why sacrifice?

>people who are communicative, supportive and willing to endure discomfort or sacrifice
Not happening after the honeymoon phase.

I had some women doing unimaginable things to me.
I've seen some women doing unimaginable things to other people.

Including lying and distorting the reality.

There's no such a thing, it rarely happens.

>It very may well be. As I said, I'm not saying that your experiences aren't real, I'm just saying that don't adopt the mentality that just because your house is on the beach that the whole world is covered in sand, if that makes sense.
But that's not really what I'm saying.

>Who are you or I to tell other people what does and doesn't make them look nicer?
Someone who doesn't want to be manipulated?

Anytime you come with these personal attacks that's besides the point I think I'm dealing with a girl.

That's how I feel too user. I think that manipulation is the main weapon for a woman maintain a man for themselves. That's why they tend to destroy our hobbies and manipulates through sex.

But I don't like to be aggressive like this. lol

Yes, but have you noticed that most of these "manipulations" are for the good of the children? And long term? You have ethical reasons to do that.

Now that I'm thinking about it, these are not manipulations at all, they're rewarding good behaviors.

What's the ethical reason for a woman using makeup to manipulate men that they're prettier than they are? So they can feel good about it?

>Putting on make up or photoshoping selfies to deceive people is exactly the same as being a good person
This is your brain on estrogen. No one said singing a baby to sleep is manipulation. That's a lot of projection from your sociopathy user. I would get that checked out.

/thread

I see. There's one problem though, maybe girls that doesn't play the manipulation game... well, they appear much less than the ones that manipulates.

But it also happens in personal lives. It's also in the little things.

>Stop seeing women as a constant in a math problem and start seeing them as individual people.
>Stop thinking

Continue reading.

>>Stop seeing women as a constant in a math problem and start seeing them as individual people.
>>Stop thinking
Not memeing, this solidifies my theory of your autism
See a behavior specialists you can help you deal with your autism so you can live a more fulfilling life.
You're going to take this as an insult and immediately dismiss me, but w.e. Your life not mine.

This thread is generalized, waaaaaaaaay too generalized. Women are women and I think it's more than obvious that you will find a pattern in their behavior to some extent but you have to keep in mind the harder you look at each woman you'll eventually notice that many women out there have different beliefs or personalities that can vary.

Can't take this thread seriously OP.

I did. Your positions basically stayed the same.

You don’t value beauty or aesthetics, you think makeup can only be used for concealment and not for self-expression, blah blah blah

you’re still assuming that your values are universal. the issue he pointed out is ongoing.

>itt: i'm not the problem, it's literally the millions of women out there

I think that's just how they learned to survive since the stone age. Imagine being stupid and weak, and having different strong men drag you to the cave to rape you. Eventually they learned how to manipulate those strong men into giving their resources to them and not getting thrown out of the cave/tribe or getting killed.

Let me do you a big favor. Read the following 3 books:

The Game
Sperm Wars
The Selfish Gene

>thinking is autism

>You don’t value beauty or aesthetics
I'm a designer.

>itt: i'm not the problem, it's literally the millions of women out there
Read the topic.

yeah, I think a lot of it is rooted in survival. That's why I think that the problem in question is related to r/K selection.

I knew there was something more into it.

They look to be really great books by reading the synopses.

I'll read them. Thanks user!

I missed your post.

Yes, I guess that's why the whole NoFap thing exists. I'm willing to give it a try.

>bad history
>bad science
>just wow

thread die please

>So they manipulate a lot of things, like camera angles, dress, makeup so they manipulate men into adoring them.
Gosh I really hate it when people do that, like you know, on every professional Fotograf ever.
Design, Style and such things are a thing and usually not considered manipulation. Is this bait?

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What do you mean with this post?

What other things that manipulate people have to do with the main point of the topic?

ah yes the everyone who's mean is an incel mentality... ah yes the ignore the pertinent points and say he looks silly method of argumentation... fuck you dumb faggot youre proving my point and youre gonna continue to do so because you cant say anything but garbage meme type nonsense about how silly I look lol shut the fuck up please

>I'm going to generalize the thread by criticizing how generalized it is
Retarded.

What op called manipulation is just using makeup, wearing cute clothes, growing hair out etc. It's not manipulation and the whole thread is so nonesensical. It's like op has never talked to a girl.
I do sports and count kcal to get a nice body. Am I manipulating girls to find me attractive? Paying the guitar is sexy as fuck, are guitarists manipulative because of that?

This shitty bait thread was on page 6, why did your dumbass have to bump it back up? You could’ve left it alone to 404

Dude, you made a thread a few hours ago, and it was deleted. People gave you reasons as to why your reasoning is flawed. A lot of your ppints are based on false premises and generalizations from smaller subsets of populations, namely from younger people.

>What op called manipulation is just using makeup, wearing cute clothes, growing hair out etc.
No. Read the topic.

Stop changing the argument and focusing in a point that's not the main question.

>Dude, you made a thread a few hours ago, and it was deleted.
No, I didn't.

You're free to report the thread under this allegations.

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OP,you know that on you’ll find more like-minded people who’ll probably give you better conversation right? Not even trying to be like “gb2 r9k where u belong!!” but seriously that’s the board for this kind of off topic stuff. You’re not asking for advice, and all you seem to be doing is arguing with every single post.

Maybe not. Even the ones that don't do all that shit will take advantage of the attention you give them all the same.

Kinda. Many women are like that, but not all and some just to various degrees.

I dress well, but I was never a fan of makeup so I don't use it (except some lipstick from time to time). I'm not a bombshell or anything, but I'm thin, know how to dress and don't have any really ugly features. It might sound retarded and very incel-y, but my advice to any woman who wants a great relationship with a high quality man is to suck his dick really well. I mean it, it's not some joke. For some reason men don't give a shit about anything and would do anything for you if you know how to give an amazing blowjob. If you're not a raving lunatic, show him affection and suck his dick well, you'll have that man for life. You don't need makeup, don't need to have a pornstar body, don't need to be a saint who cooks him dinner every night, don't need to be the stereotypical "perfect woman". You just need to suck dick well, then watch him turn into a retarded puppy who will do anything for you. So I guess to answer OP, yes most women are manipulative to some degree. It's not always just about the physical appearance though.

Yes, I forgot to add that in the OP. I'm asking how to deal with that, how to raising a family knowing that most women are like that.

What kind of mindset you've got to have, and why not just going with r selection instead of K selection if that's the case.

Most people are not even giving advice, they're just telling me to go to Jow Forums, like you, or personal attacks.

Also deflecting the main argument into something it is not.

Sadly I don't see a reason for a long term relationship, not even a short a one. If it's all a game, it's better to play it in a way that it'll be fun, at least.

For now I'm going into the hook up life. But then there's the children question. I can't abandon their mom. It's not part of my nature.

Yeah, in a way, the main interest of men in a woman would be the fact that she can have children. Even if it doesn't feel like that.

If you think about it, it makes no sense for a man spend resources with woman. Why do we do that? Because our brain believes that she'll give birth to our children.

Yes, I think you're right. I see what the problem is. If a woman doesn't do that, she'll lower her chances of find a good partner, since men are mainly motivated by sex.

In a way, it's necessary, because even if a woman doesn't want to do that, another one will.

Some will sexualize more than others, and the one that sexualize and show herself as sexually available has a higher chance to attract a man with resources.

A good provider will raise the chances for her and her children to survive. And a good provider may also be a good/support husband.

That's a very good answer.

That and the guy that recommended that books.

I guess the answer is in accepting the fate that someone (man or woman) exists first and foremost to survive and to procreate. The rest is secondary in the grand scheme of things.

>Yes, I forgot to add that in the OP. I'm asking how to deal with that, how to raising a family knowing that most women are like that.
How convenient. Almost like this is bait or something.

read the topic