Self-defense for the coming war

To make a long story short, I researched the way close combat is conducted in the only environment that regularly pits trained, aggressive opponents against each other in a fight to the death and without any rules. This means I researched close combat in wars.

As it turns out, the solutions people came up with are quite a bit different from the sports matches and even streetfights we all know. There are only a few styles that actually made the cut and proved themselves in wartime close combat. I will tell you about these.

>Basic boxing and Japanese Jiu Jitsu combined with medieval wrestling
This (quite unusual for the time) combination was used in WW2 to great effect by the German Wehrmacht and SS.

While everyone was using Jiu Jitsu at the time (after the Russo-Japanese war, people realized close combat is extremely important and immediately took to importing Jiu Jitsu teachers), the Germans took it up a notch: They combined the Japanese Jiu Jitsu with medieval wrestling techniques (basically the same as Jiu Jitsu, just with a focus on breaking bones instead of subduing; at the time, it was a well-known fact that Jiu Jitsu was just the Japanese development of medieval European wrestling brought there during the Sengoku era) and very basic boxing, both mainly trained via partner drills.

The reason for this was that the Germans saw pro boxing as "entartet", too specialized for the real world. However, they were of the opinion that boxing was great for training fighting spirit and courage (Jiu Jitsu, not so much). So what they did was that only very basic boxing without any frills or advanced maneuvers was taught. Nothing fancy like counter punching, footwork or anything like that. Just slugging.

Did it work? Yes. The Nazis were close combat monsters, able to completely take apart even the British Gurkhas and the Greek partisans (allegedly, those were using Pankration). After the war, the Allies banned martial arts training in Germany for this very reason.

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>Taekwondo
Believe it or not. The much-maligned Taekwondo was used to great effect by the Koreans during the Vietnam war. So great was the effect, that the Vietcong recommended its troops not to engage the Koreans in close combat.

The training was traditional as fuck, basically your typical run-of-the-mill dojo stuff with added body hardening like Makiwara (remember, TKD is just rebranded Shotokan). It proved to be much superior to whatever the Americans used - Uncle Sam regulary got his ass kicked in close combat by the mush smaller but much more violent Vietnamese.

Today, you're probably best off if you do ITF Taekwondo, which is more similar to what was taught back then.

>Basic Karate and Judo
This is what the Japanese used in WW2. It turned out to be more than a match for the diverse fighting arts of Asia, beating out Muay Thai, 99% Kung Fu and SEA styles, not to mention the Korean ones. The Karate was famously done by training full contact with just a lead punch (oi tsuki) and a kick to the balls (kinteki geri) with military boots. Injuries, even heavy injuries, during training were normal and expected.

Judo was the usual Judo training, but Judo is trained quite differently in Japan, mostly randori of different intensities.

And it's also worth noting that during the beginning of the Chinese campaign, Japanese troops actually engaged German troops who were, at the time, allied with China. Japan got BTFO massively, which is interesting because the Japanese were of the opinion that Germany was the only country that understood the self-defense aspect of Jiu Jitsu. It wasn't a case of "bigger Euro beating Asian boy" either, since the Chinese trained by Germans (Division 88 for example) also defeated the Japanese easily in engagements.

Lead works faster.
Break distance and shoot.

>Tongbei Quan and Xingyi Quan
The only Kugn Fu styles that showed merit in war. Tongbei Quan more so than Xingyi Quan, the latter was mostly used by generals. Everything else turned out to be useless, which says something. Even the similar styles of Baji Quan or Xinyi Liuhe Quan proved to be shit.

Pistols are useless under 21 feet, see Tueller Drill. This is something Americans will have to learn in the future, because the future battlefield is urban. From experience, I can however say that you will not accept this until lots of soldiers die.

Anyway, that pretty much was it. Every other style ranges from so-so to hilariously underpowered. France lost a whole generation of savate kickboxers in the trenches, Thailand lost their best Nak Muay against the Japanese.

Today, many armies are using a rebranded Nazi boxing/stand up grappling style. Examples include: Bojewoje Sambo, Krav maga/Kapap, Lerdrit, and so on. Sometimes, boxing is replaced with karate (in case of Lerdrit), but it seems your best bet will be stand up grappling and good old fisticuffs.

What about krav maga or is that just a meme?

I'd like some discussion and maybe additional sources, by the way.

Don't fall into the trap of relying on pistols exclusively. The Russians made that error during the Russo-Japanese war, the Americans made that error during Vietnam. Learn from their mistakes. You NEED close combat techniques, either unarmed or armed, preferably both. This is one of the great lessons from history.

Krav Maga for civilians is a meme, but see Military KM is more or less what the Nazis did. The Israelis try their best to replicate the SS and Wehrmacht training, from what I have seen.

Interesting shit, i havw nothing to contribute so have a bump.

Sidewalks in america are sometimes over 21 feet wide...
Eurokeks lack spatial awareness in relation to america.
Its over 30 feet from my couch to my kitchen fridge, in the “narrow” part of my home.
(((Urban))) combat in burgerclapistan will be 10-250 yards

You will have to make your own mistakes then. Sorry.

Used to have a docu on SOE training: intended to be quick and intensive, pistol, blade, hand to hand, point shooting etc. Based on stuff from guys like Fairbairn. They got a bunch of SOE vets in their fucking 80s, and they remembered all the moves...

Beta Israël copying the Chad SS fighting style

So why is kung fu useless exactly?

> Pistols are useless under 21 feet

This is a half truth, but whatever - I own a semiautomatic shotgun. Nobody is invading my home without eating a load of buckshot for their trouble.

The best close combat is a derringer in your pocket.

Interesting thread. Bump.

I want to learn how to fight besides the kind of fights you get into back in highschool.

Any videos that teach the basics? I don't want to pay for lessons cause I already pay for a gym membership and it's expensive enough

Its not. Most nip martial arts are bastardised from the chinks anyway, like most things they have. But the generic term kung fu covers thousands of arts from empty hand to weapons, tai chi to the wrestling styles. Its as if all jap styles were covered by one term so you think jiu jutsus useless cos you dont like karate.

Having said that if i had my time over i would concentrate on boxing and judo.

...............kung fury is a documentary too? jesus christ

>so why is hard work useless excatly
are you wildly ignorant of what the term kung fu means or are you posting non-sense on purpose

Cant learn this stuff from a vid mate. Got to feel it, its as important to learn how to get hit as to hit. Need to work with people. Join your local boxing gym.

If someone tries to hurt me I'm just gonna piss on them and maybe cum

Because its an art form now with no real world application due to the restrictions placed on a "sport" for safety.
And its by design in order to weaken non-military forces.

The mainland chinese stuff is, wu shu shite etc. All the decent guys left for hong kong and taiwan when the commies took over. Thats where the real stuff is.

>Train for combat entire life
>Leave when commies take over
How can they cope with the shame?

All styles and refinement disappears after you get punched in the face by someone who wants to fuck you up. Even before that, unless you've been in several fights and experienced, your body will absolutely betray you, you'll experience an adrenaline dump, your vision will narrow and your legs will suddenly feel stuck to the ground.

What works in a fight is a boxing ability, balls, stamina, and power. Kicking 9 times out of 10 is wrong, unless it's a clear and easy boot to the nutsack..

All martial arts are memes, boxing is and always will be the best; if someone breaks through your jab, then you NEED to take them to the floor fast, the only way you do that is with power and using your or their weight if you can. Best way is using your hips as torque and grappling. If they land on you, you've fucked up and they have the advantage.

Most street fights, never go longer than 30seconds, If you end up in a fight that lasts more than 60seconds and the person is still throwing punches, it means either they're really good, or you're ineffective, in which case run.

I used to do the doors in London, back in the day, a fight against a pissed up blokes throwing hay makers is one thing, but a fight against someone carrying a blade is a potential life ender, there's no defence or martial fart that's going to help.

Just scream "rape" and be sure to carry your extra loud rape alarm.

>Pistols are useless under 21 feet
That's the stupidest shit anyone has ever warped into common knowledge.

>Pistols are useless under 21 feet
This is exactly the opposite of reality you derranged memeflaggot.

bump

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No, I think he's probably talking about how quick it takes to draw a pistol and the closing range of someone running at you with a knife. Not everyone can draw a pistol like John Wayne.

Wait one...

Knife vs gun -21 foot rule
If you're law enforcement of military infantry you'd know this.
youtube.com/watch?v=2h0-q_IJbxE

Fairbairn-style got BTFO in WW2 though. It#s better than nothing, though.

>So why is kung fu useless exactly?
Training method is weird in China. Everyone does partner drills or shadowboxing and it works. But not for China, for some reason.

They started copying Western arts with Sanda, later on because of that. I read a book from the 1700s where European travelers had the same points of criticism as we do today: Kung Fu has lots of very nice tricks and body conditioning, but it doesn't work in a fight.

But home defense is kinda different to what I'm worried about.

The Russians thought like that and lost. You also thought like that during Vietnam and lost.

Basics are kinda the same everywhere. I think the most important thing is to stay relaxed which is very hard in a fight.

Modern boxing has not been proven in combat, though. The sport is too different from a real fight. Early on, bare knuckle era with added low kicks and grappling, was very useful. But modern boxing was invented in the first place so people wouldn't kill each other in street fights anymore.

Hard work is mostly useless, you need to work smart. You have to be able to fight even if everything goes south. Hard work doesn't help you then.

No, you totally can learn it from a book or vid, IF the vid or book is good. Boxing is overrated.

This is, of course, the view of someone who never fought for real. And the defense against a knife is of course beating the other guy before he pulls it out completely.

youtube.com/watch?v=8djH9JjUsyU

Well no shit. Be a fucking yeti won't help you if you're ambushed completely unawares. Buying a little space and doing a point blank hipshoot will be more effective than muh kung fu.

>This is, of course, the view of someone who never fought for real. And the defense against a knife is of course beating the other guy before he pulls it out completely.
You're a fucking dickhead.
I've had more fights than you've had christmas dinners.
If someone has a knife you run, doesn't matter what you clown dojo instructor teaches you; unless you shoot him in the head.

Yeah, but that's not what he said. He said the Chinese whispers version of the rule. That a pistol is useless at under 21 feet. Which is an absurd thing to say.
There are issues with the knife vs gun thing too, but nothing major.

>Pistols are useless under 21 feet,
I actually have to wonder what the fuck OP studied or if he's just shitposting?

Vid vaguely related. It's close combat, Mexican Marines storming a cartel safehouse, you can clearly see the marines using tkd under 21 feet. Oh wait, no, they use grenades and shoot fuckers.

youtube.com/watch?v=AepqmtDsZNY

There's a HUGE difference between "you are likely to get fucked up by a fucking fucker with a knife at that distance", and "pistols are completely useless.

>I've had more fights than you've had christmas dinners.
Kicking out a drunk idiot isn't a fight. Anyone can do that.

FWIW; every bouncer in bad neighborhoods agrees with me. Only the new guys and the guys working the door in peaceful areas disagree.

>If someone has a knife you run, doesn't matter what you clown dojo instructor teaches you; unless you shoot him in the head.
Then you will be killed when someone with a knife knows what he's doing. If your run, you get a knife in the back.

Recently, German police gave out some tips against knife fighters for its personnel. Running away is one of the bigger mistakes you can do. The best course is, of course, to have a gun drawn and aimed and just shoot the fucker - but this isn't practical in many situations.

>Kicking 9 times out of 10 is wrong, unless it's a clear and easy boot to the nutsack..
I disagree particularly if you’re fighting someone fat/big or heavyset. A few shots to the head followed by the hardest knee kick you muster can seriously fuck up the mobility of some fat mexican or 300lb rick ross wannabe. Those are the ones you absolutely can’t let get on top of you or you could end up dead, might as well take a shot at preventing it right off the bat.

Now do one where the knife at 21 feet where the knife is sheathed and the gun is drawn. I'll be waiting.

Shite thread from a shite flag

I see it's American retard time again. Yes, if you have your gun drawn and aimed at the knife fighter, you can shoot him before he stabs you. So, if you are running around with your gun drawn and ready 24/7, feel free to disregard the advice from police and military.

If you have to draw your gun, aim and shoot, then the knife will always win.

plot twist: is’s a 21 foot knife

You say that like vietnam was a combat loss.
Vietnam was a political loss. We were unable to sell the idea well enough and the civilians back home grew in anti-war sentiment, the same civvies who were sent to war or influenced those yet to be sent to war. which translated into soldiers in vietnam actively opposing the war.

we didn't lose because we didn't martial arts hard enough.

>Even before that, unless you've been in several fights and experienced, your body will absolutely betray you, you'll experience an adrenaline dump, your vision will narrow and your legs will suddenly feel stuck to the ground.
The only way to remotely counter that is exactly that. Get fucked up a bunch of times.

G20 mob fights in Germany proved that kicking is useless. In a street fight, the other guy comes in with loads of forward pressure, much more pressure than in n a match. There is no feeling out with jabs or feinting or anything like that. And that means you cannot use the usual kicks to stop the guy, he will just rush through them. That is the reality.

A street fight or close combat is NOT a duel situation where you keep your distance and use "art" to overcome "strength".

In think we all know you lost and lost hard, especially in all close combat related engagements. That is just a fact of history.

This is my major problem with the 21 foot rule. It assumes a lot of shit. A big one being that you're just going to stand there and be stabbed.
The rule is there so people don't underestimate a knife wielding attacker. I get that. But lying about the outcome by using the worst possible scenario has made people underestimate the utility of pistols at close range instead.

>So, if you are running around with your knife drawn and ready 24/7, feel free to disregard the advice from police and military.
Slight change. Now what, manimal? You're premise is overly specific and you're a memeflag kike. Ocksucker.

Jej

>This is my major problem with the 21 foot rule. It assumes a lot of shit. A big one being that you're just going to stand there and be stabbed.
That is just wrong. Watch the videos.

The only assumption is that the gunfighter hasn't drawn his gun yet. That's it.

Stop being so retarded, you fucking fat idiot. Unless you're not part of a Swat team rolling over some fuckers, the rule applies. You are too slow to stop a knife attack if the gun hasn't been drawn yet.

Accept it or die.

Given his other posts, OP is just an aspergy kid, who watched too much anime / Jet li.
Doesn't know what he's talking about. The theory goes you need 21 feet to pull on someone with a knife to be effective without getting injured. Of course, in the real world, there's other considerations too.

9/10 on kicking user, often it's stupid.
Weight always makes a big difference. A 10 stone 5'8 faggot is going to have a harder time against a 20 stone 6'5 faggot.

I've trained law enforcement and others, disarming perps with knifes and pistols shotguns and rifles. The disarming techniques are meme bollocks.


absolutely.

>I see it's American retard time again.
>disregard military advice
You're the fucking moron who misinterpreted the (generally sound);advice and regurgitated it to mean something entirely different.

>A street fight or close combat is NOT a duel situation where you keep your distance and use "art" to overcome "strength".

nah, that's not true, if you're boxing trained and got good footwork and a decent reach you can keep a muppet at bay. I've done so in a street fight. Until the time he slips / breaks through your jab.

>muh 21 ft rule
all these nikkas who never studied gun history and don't know that the best skill to have as a gun owner after trigger discipline and target accuracy is drawing speed and comfort.

It's like you've never seen a wild west movie and looked at the tactical advantage of being able to draw and shoot multiple opponents with fluid motion in order to slow their reaction systems.

And how didn't I see the the derranged fucker roaming around with a drawn knife before he got within 21 feet?
>Walking down sidewalk
>see nigger with a knife 100 ft off
>put hand on gun
> try to avoid nigger
> nigger within 50 foot
>draw gun, tell nigget to back off
> niger does or gets shot
Just fuck right off no gunz eurokike. You're not going to convince us stop carrying guns or shooting niggers. As always, you hooked nosed cock biters are fucking transparent.

>Watch the videos.
I did. They stood there and got stabbed by a fake knife. Because in a training scenario you do as the trainer says. You don't back up, grab his arm, kick him in the nuts, etc.
This is nitpicky shit, but again, as general advice the 21 foot rule is fine. The rule isn't - as was my original point - "pistols are useless at under 21 feet"

The 21 foot rule is only applicable to police and other security and law enforcement who will have their sidearms in a strapped and secured holster with safety on with no primary weapon. It's also based on having to precisely shoot just the target, again a stipulation for carriers that will be around non-combatants and cannot risk a stray.

in a combat zone none of those restrictions apply and the 21 foot rule becomes the corner rule.

Again, we lost politically. We had soldiers who refused orders, reported back fake enemy movement, and fragged our own officers.
we had high casualties but the majority were not to sudden knife attacks. They were to traps and ambushes in a dense forested area where visibility was low.

I’m talking about where you suddenly out of nowhere end up in a fight with some asshole or two and you simply need to survive it and gtfo, not rolling open battles. I’ve been attacked on a few occasions and doing karate sparring in college and being able to throw a decent salvo, get the eyes watered, try to hurt a leg, then gtfo asap has worked for me. Two pretty different situations.

Kempofag here, literally any Japanese martial
art will give you an instant +10 against any opponent of average untrained skill level. Boxing is still a good skill, but against trained
martial artists not so much. Also, Aikido is gay,
It's literally Ninjutsu's taijustsu without the Jutsu
and it's a fucking meme.

Bob Mundane fast as fuck, draws at 0.2 of a second.
>youtube.com/watch?v=mdYFv9_znRY

You're (we all are much to our shame) arguing with a memeflaggot lying kike. Thisnis a slide thread. We should know better and feel bad.

>unarmed
doesn't happen, it's always a knife fight
leverage is more important than style

Fair point. I should be asleep anyway.
Have a good night Jow Forums and pil/pol/!

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>Pistols are useless under 21 feet

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OK memeflaggot OP is completely retarded now.

Look at the casualties and tell me how we lost in combat again.

US casualties: ~50K

North Vietnam casualties: ~1 million

Archived thread OP archive.is/2Faez before it derails from redditfags. Your knowledge will not be wasted.

That's total deaths retard, that doesn't account for who got their shit rocked and brutalised.

>carry knife
>stay within 21ft of all possible threats
>become invincible

You're way too concerned with fine detail here. Toughness is the most important factor in fighting. The recipe for toughness, in order of importance, is spirit, strength, skill. It doesn't really matter what brand of fighting so long as you can actually fight.

As far as practical application is concerned, look at video footage of events you are concerned about and come up with strategies to deal with them. All the brand obsession about Nazi fighting or Jap Karate is really more masturbatory than anything else. Be inspired by their overall toughness rather than trying to LARP out of a manual or whatever.

Taekwondo is an absolute shit tier martial art, a buddy of mine is certified to open his own dojo and realizes basic boxing and wrestling could destroy mostly any taekwondo practitioner

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>Man charges you with knife

If you have a pistol draw and get on your back on the ground. The knife wielder will have to follow you to the ground by exposing their body to your fire whilst standing over you (Or crawl up to you like a retard).

Alternatively, but more autistiicly, pair a karambit knife with a pistol. Does not impair firing and makes disarmament difficult.

T.nobody cares

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This is not correct. I’ve boxed, wrestled, Bjj, Muay Thai, and some Krav and train in a Taekwondo dojang and have sparred with a few advanced degree black belts, it is extremely viable. Taekwondo is far more practical than many martial arts, and I’d defy anyone to go fuck with a ROK soldier in hand to hand with any other discipline and see how it goes. BJJ would win out of all of them but only if you have serious training and skill.

Aren't you cool

>T.nobody cares

what about your average redneck who are thoroughly experienced in modifying shotgun shells into nutbusters and also proficient in using them

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>average taikwondo practitioner for reference.

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bump

>after the Russo-Japanese war, people realized close combat is extremely important
stopped reading here
a single bullet is better than decades of training in any possible martial arts

Yeah, and I'm Pope John McCain the 69th

dude you can watch any war video from any gopro terrorist in middle east and watch for yourself that even face to face in buildings they prefer to shoot because its just more efficient, a single finger flex and you kill a dude vs years of training and just a bigger chance to come off against other unarmed dude

my buddy can't fight for shit even though he's thoroughly proficient in taekwondo, but maybe that's just him. I love smashing BJJ fags into walls and the ground, then smashing their face in with my fists. Works every time.

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If some dude wants to fight threaten to jerk them off

Have you even been in a fight?
Usually people don't go around with a knife or gun prepared to attack.
Fights tend to happen after a few minutes or seconds of arguing, pushing and cursing. Is in that moment, when the other one reaches his pocket to grab a knife and charges at you, not giving you time to draw your gun.

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