What are Libertarians thoughts on unions?

What are Libertarians thoughts on unions?

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Other urls found in this thread:

economics.byu.edu/frandsen/Documents/nonrandomelections2.pdf
csun.edu/~vcecn007/publications/Unions_and_Employment_Growth.pdf
www2.gsu.edu/~ecobth/Fraser_Union_Performance.pdf
deltafa.org/pdf_library/do unions help the economy.pdf
sole-jole.org/15566.pdf
eh.net/encyclopedia/hours-of-work-in-u-s-history/
ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=5589
youtube.com/watch?v=ZITP93pqtdQ
twitter.com/NSFWRedditVideo

Libertarians should be supportive (or at least permissive) of any voluntary association, unions included.

It's when membership is forced and/or they're given special privileges from the government that makes libertarians chafe.

I don't believe in the non aggression principle so I believe that they should be exterminated and all members killed. Also they are a front for the mafia.

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Unions would be fine IF AND ONLY IF they were a legitimate fully voluntary association of workers. unfortunately unions have abused democracy to vote themselves a shit-ton of favorable legal treatment that allows them to basically run the company they are a part of into the dirt. Stuff like right-to-work erodes this ill-gotten power away from their dark jew masters which is why they scree so hard and immediately fall back to their most basic of jewish tactics whenver it is mentioned.

I've never met libertarians who were opposed to unions. Not sure why anyone would ever make or post that cartoon. It's pretty much a giant strawman. Pure demagoguery.

>people making unions
fine
>unions lobbying government for changes that benefit them and hurt others
gay

Libertarians are Anarchists in denial.
Do you also have issues with the government making it illegal for people to strike e.g. Taft-Hartley Act?

>Lobbying the government for higher wages is bad
That's stupid. Why do people like you exist? Shit, dumbass people like you should be choked until your brain is starved of oxygen.

>wahhhh the gubermint won't bully my employer for me wahhhhh

unions are excessively protected by regulations

Ultimate collection of "why unions are shit" researches:
economics.byu.edu/frandsen/Documents/nonrandomelections2.pdf

csun.edu/~vcecn007/publications/Unions_and_Employment_Growth.pdf

www2.gsu.edu/~ecobth/Fraser_Union_Performance.pdf

deltafa.org/pdf_library/do unions help the economy.pdf

sole-jole.org/15566.pdf

eh.net/encyclopedia/hours-of-work-in-u-s-history/

ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=5589

Educate yourself.

I'm a libertarian and I was in a union once.
They try to get you to support stupid policies. They give tons of money to democrats. They bitch about stupid things. They hook you up with some sweet paychecks and bennies, though, too.
Politics isn't why I left. But the fact that I despised their politics certainly made it easy.

Yeah right to work is more or less the one singular regulation on unions that actually makes sense and protects people. Everything else is corruption and the union laws are the biggest instrument of economic oppression today. Pisses me off when I hear "15 dollar an hour minimum wage!" it's fucking awful. Awful decision for the economy and everything. There should be no minimum wage, but unions. With unions you'd actually get more money, and the playing field of big business vs small business would be leveled out greatly. Everyone would be able to compete. It would be a genuine "free market".

Of course, we have a lot of foreign competition from places like China and that is what drives a lot of the justification for our draconian economic policy. And it isn't "BS". I mean when China overtakes us they are gonna fuck us hard.

So the way they end up after a generation or longer anywhere they've been tried? They grow like a business to become too big, then either push for communism (Europe) or become the high-financiers (Australian union superfunds). At least the vision of the business as an organization isn't quite so hypocritical.

Wages are an agreement between the employer and the employee. Lobbying the government for higher wages should be stupid, because the government should not be involved in that, other than when it hires people itself.

Libertarians generally favor right-to-work at least in principal.
Unions absolutely HATE HATE HATE right-to-work. So there's that.

>Do you also have issues with the government making...

I didn't finish reading the sentence before i decided i was against your statement

All those papers say unions are shit because they increase productivity and pay workers more. That's a dumb ass argument. Basically, union busters are angry their workers are paid better.

I am not anti-Union as long as participation is voluntary, but I am curious about a few things:

The United Auto Worker's Union (UAW), despite being a fifth of what it was in the 1980s, still rakes in nearly 300 million dollars a year in revenue from dues. The AFL-CIO at a 97 year low in participation, 200 million. Even in the 80s when their collective influence was much greater-and as the phenomena of outsourcing to the east and illegal immigration were in their infancy and presenting a looming-and ultimately realized-threat to the working class across the country not a penny was spent by either of them developing competing manufactured products or creating businesses based on the principles to which they purportedly ascribe. There is no Union factory, Union concept car or Union heavy machine industry, at least that I'm aware of. Why not?

Do Union employees really make that much more? It's said-and I believe correctly-that Union employees do make more money on average, however it's also true that most Union members are older by about 4-5 years. While it might not seem so at first glance, this is significant when deferring to generalized averages because older, more experienced workers are typically paid more regardless of their Union status as common sense (and a search engine) will tell you:

>Age: 25-34 Average Weekly Salary: $793 Average Annual Salary: $41,236
>Age: 35-44 Average Weekly Salary: $986 Average Annual Salary: $51,272

Union employees are also primarily employed in the Government public sector (35%~ total public vs 6%~ total private) which are completely unprofitable as our legendarily high deficit can attest, in those instances they should not be included in any such discussion.

What is a Union's place in a globalized world? Are they an important part of a labor ecosystem or just puffed-up parasites taking far more credit than they're owed?

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what's the difference between a union and a labor cartel?

Found the union punk lol

Nigga, your first source is mormon propaganda

Why are anarchists so stupid?

I didn't post nor read those papers.
From a point of principal forcing an employer to force his employees to participate in an organization against their will is bullshit.

Libertarians hate working class people, and love corporations, who knew.

If you're against force, then you probably shouldn't live in the United States. The United States is pretty forceful on a lot things. I guess you should move to Somalia because there's no government there, and no one would force you to do anything.

why can't you actually respond to an argument instead of jumping into a baseless ad hominem?

Man I thought unions were just a way to make more money from whatever shitty trade job you’re working.

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Nothing wrong with a union. The problem is when the government supports it (i.e. teachers' unions). Regular unions are perfectly fair game in capitalism.
That said, pure libertarians are retarded. Half of them are all "muh NAP" but think you shouldn't need a driver's license to drive on PUBLIC roads that are basically shared and thus yeah the people do have a right to decide who drives on them. Minimal govt libertarians are good. Ancaps are fucking retards. The NAP is a principle not a hard-fast law you stick to until you become a fucking parody of yourself.

youtube.com/watch?v=ZITP93pqtdQ

Your posts are shit in this thread.
whoever paid you to shill here is paying you too much.

>Educate yourself.
Because you're too dumb to elucidate your position?

As a liberal Jow Forums user I would say that for the most parts unions are unnecessary, because they don't ever stand up for their members and just suck free money out of them.

Unions would be beneficial to a lot of professions in preventing foreign H1B employers from exploiting cheap foreign labor and flooding the market in the US.

>Do you also have issues with the government making it illegal for people to strike e.g. Taft-Hartley Act
Problem is that goverment prohibits employer from firing all striking emplyees at the spot if he wishes to do so. So to counter balance that government needs to make more legislation.

I am working class libertarian in a skilled trade. Don't hate myself, don't love corporations. I just have strong beliefs about right and wrong.
And forcing non-union working people to pay union dues is fucking wrong.

>expecting a libertarian to have a valuable thought

>libertarians love corporations
>Meanwhile corporations don't exist without a government that ignores libertarian principles.

Libertarians are fags and incompetent self unaware morons, but drivers licenses are gay. Driving is not that hard. If you are a bad driver, you are banned from driving. No license is needed for that.

>And forcing non-union working people to pay union dues is fucking wrong.
They aren't forced.
If they don't want to pay dues then they don't have to perform union work.

>placing value on thought
mmm, yes, another smol thinker.

Yeah well I mean that is a fair point. A union without right-to-work protections for employees though is just a giant mob and a second government. And as I see it, right-to-work is not an infringement on the freedom of assembly in any way. I mean, your "right to freedom of assembly" does not guarantee that you have the right to explicitly blockade and infringe on other peoples freedom of assembly, which is what an employer and employee contract is.

It's like saying if you got together in a mob and went out and smashed car windows and stole shit that the government can't stop you because "you're in a mob and practicing your right to assembly". It's obviously a dishonest argument.

Unions should be unrestricted so long as their membership and association is voluntary and their members are not members under some kind of mere coercion.

Tragedy of the commons is unavoidable, because we all share the same universe. because of this we need a minimal level of a state to coordinate things like defense and ensure free movement across the country. Beyond this is simply selfish bully-tactics though.

Unions distort the real price of labor and cause imbalances in the free market. None of this really matters though so long as central banking and fiat money is still place because the money printing distorts the real price of everything up until the inevitable hyperinflation.

or they could not be required to involve a third party in a private agreement between themselves and their employer.

>lol just create your own labor market
soon followed by the old and predictable
>lol just make your own youtube
>lol just make your own credit card company
>lol just make your own banking system
>lol just make your own country

>Minimal govt libertarians are good. Ancaps are fucking retards.
I feel like this is really the truth. But it's weird because we live in a world today where people can ONLY understand extremes. ALL OR NOTHING when IRL you need to be smart, understand the world around you, calculate responsibly when a law or regulation is truly needed in order to maintain the integrity of the whole, and then back the fuck off when it comes to questions of decadence, "equality", social safety nets and all of the rest.

They don't have to create their own labor market they can go work at a non-union shop, there are plenty of them. Lots of boot-lickers out there love bending over for the man and getting fucked.

Libertarian Ethnostate when?

>A free market causes an imbalance in the free market.
Listen to yourself. I'm sorry if you feel that greentext is a strawman somehow, but I genuinely feel it's an accurate translation of what you just said.

muh dik

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Minarchism FTW

They should be able to form at any point for any reason to participate in collective bargaining.
However, once the grievance has been settled: the union would be forced to dissolve.

I support private trade unions I dont support public unions that essentially use government jobs as a way to collect funds for democrats at the cost of teachers, police, firefighters and other public servants.

>bennies
Stop talking like that

>"The struggle was befogged by the fact that the worst Fascists were they who disowned the word 'Fascism' and preached enslavement to Capitalism under the style of Constitutional and Native American Liberty. For they were thieves not only of wages but of honor. To their purpose they could quote not only Scripture but Jefferson."

Who cares what ropertarians think.
The villains.

right to work gives union benefits to people who dont pay union dues. Its the same as welfare gibs to people who dont pay taxes.

So, are you saying that social programs funded by tax payers
>WIC
>Food assistance for needy families
>utility assitance
>rent assistance
>school lunch programs
>after school care programs
>benefits for the mentally ill or handicap
are bad? because like, I'm pretty in favor of all of those things, but I will acknowledge that the programs need stricter requirements and actual arm of enforcement to prevent generations of welfare users.

I'm a union representative and we will not strike. AMA

>Union: I got you this
>Worker: I didn't need that.
>Union: Pay me for getting you this.
>Worker: I don't want it!
>Union: hey, this is welfare gibs if you don't pay me.

Or don't. Fuck off.

that comic is stupid because in a free society he could just fire me without infringing on anyone’s rights

>lol just get a new career
Do you even listen to yourself? What is "union work"? How can non-union workers "do union work"?

In theory I'd prefer to do away with all of those things and just have people take care of themselves. The nanny state is going to twist and pervert the human race into a slave-beast for the state, IMO. I don't want to take part in building that world.
In practice, we're in competition in a global economy, and it's a fight for our survival and existence in the future. So we need to make responsible decisions to prop up our GDP and fund our military.

But this second way of looking at things falls flat when you start realizing that in the USA we can build up the world's most powerful military, but then we refuse to use it to wipe out our enemies, because we're so decedent and insulated that people cry for "peace and tolerance" to the people who would annihilate us in an instant the second they get any kind fo economic or military upper hand.

So then you gotta start thinking, maybe the first option was really the way we should have gone from the very start. That IS actually more or less how this country started out, and became great, but it slowly decayed into nannying and totalitarianism.

ahaha
yea, no worker wants higher wages, more vacation time, sick days, holiday pay, job security, health insurance, tuition assistance, need i go on

right to work breaks the ability of the union to force membership. if the unions wanted to run an exclusive business then they could go form a happy commune, buy their own tools, and start their own business, only to be out competed because they spend all their profits on self-indulgent benefits instead of paying their workers what they would be willing to work for and spending the rest on improving the business.

Ok so you know nothing about unions.

>the union is a cabal serving their own ends under false pretense

literally jews accusing others of doing what they themselves are doing

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if you think we live in a free market you are fucking retarded

>I got you a higher wage so you could pay me a bigger union due

Wait.....what? WTF?
I didn't say.....
WTF are you talking about?
Who are you even talking / responding to?

you're basically claiming that the cost of membership is greater than the benefits of membership, which is fatuously stupid

Mixed bag.
Sometimes they're needed, sometimes they end up evil cunts who fuck over the people they're meant to help.
Joining a union should be optional and you should not be penalized for abstaining from enrolling.

I was in one for 4 years.
Pretty much this.

>25 dollars a month is too much to ask for a 5 dollar an hour pay raise, health care, and protection from unjust termination

Libertarians should be shot.

> I'm too illiterate to read an article or a study even if I'm spoonfed out of looking for it myself
Okay, here's a tl:dr then
> all union bosses are former executives from the companies they're supposed to be adversarial to
> through donations and similar excuses, they still take money from those same companies
> they should be fighting for the interests of the worker and willing to crash the entire industry if the worker doesn't get his way
> instead they put their buddies first, wave through pennies no-one can live off of for wages and don't do shit
> but you're obligated to join them and pay them out of your already shit wage anyway
Unions are a money-making scam.
They originally existed only to attack, destroy and weaken White owned businesses to force them to sell them off to (((revolutionaries who mysteriously have all the necessary money to buy them))). But ever since that purpose was already achieved, they exist only to milk even more money out of the working class and into the coffers of the (((bourgeoisie))).

>Want better working conditions, fair wages, decent working environment.
>Join an organization which claims to fight for said rights
>Fired on the spot
This is what happened to my grandfather's brother, and is ultimately why we need unions.

I’m not in denial. I’m an anarchist in an ideal sense but I don’t believe it’s possible yet

If you dont want to join a union dont work at a union shop. Theres other places out there.

The benefits vastly outweigh the costs though

Fuck lolbertians and fuck commies.

If the benefits outweighed the costs, you wouldn't need to legally push people into becoming members.

No it's SO GOOD, it's MANDATORY.

>fatuously stupid
Superfluous, user. Dial back the snobbery. This is Jow Forums. Don't be that guy who calls others a fool only to reveal that he too was a fool.
>protection from unjust termination
Right to work states are the best. Why does an employer owe you employment. Employers should have the ability to fire a worker for any reason.

Bet you can’t drive a manual and don’t know how to use a roundabout.

>Libertarians are Anarchists in denial.
#notalloufus
I'm not in denial

I'm an ex-anarchist now minarchist.
I liked anarchy when I was younger because of the freedom it granted, but quickly realized that it just could not be sustained, therefore a state was needed, but that state could be kept very small while still fulfilling the functions that make it necessary in the first place.

you're implying in the green text that unions are free market and i'm telling you that if you think we live in a free market you are retarded

> Employers should have the ability to fire a worker for any reason

sorry user, I heard your a conservative. We dont support that thinking here, pack your shit and dont come back.

"Libertarian Principles" like letting corporations with unlimited funds fuck over workers, and pretending that a free market exists? Anarchists, like you, are so incoherent when it comes to policy.

even 25 cents a month is too much to ask when it's guarunteed to end up in a clinton account

Listen retard, if you let everyone gain the benefits of the union without paying for the dues of being in the union why would anyone join the union to begin with? Right to work laws are a way to bleed unions financially into non-existence.

Respond to Utopian claims that government shouldn't exist? How stupid can you be? There's nothing wrong with having a government that promotes the general welfare of the people, especially when the people vote and consent for the policies that are enacted.

>libertarians pretend we live in a free market and don't constantly bitch about the corporatist economic we live in
Imagine believing this.

then dont work in a union shop. For the record union donations are publically available and not all of it goes to democrats. When I was in the SIU a good amount of money went to republicans because they supported the jones act.

Why is anyone not inside the union getting the benefits of the union? If there are 5 employees, and 3 of them come together to negotiate a higher wage for the 3 of them, why would the other 2 get suddenly higher wages for no reason?

I can be nice to someone like you, because at least your honest, but I'd consider dropping it quickly because every anarchist project from Catalonia (which was awesome btw), to Rojava (which isn't Anarchist, but still is inspired by some of their principles) has required some form of authority to protect itself from external and internal threats.

>youre not a real liberal because you dont have a picture of che guevara, mao tse tung and stalin hanging in your room and say the things I agree with
>:(

>For the record union donations are publically available and not all of it goes to democrats
>not all
>just like 99% or something small

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Stonetoss confirmed for kike jewery, controlled opposition. Really explains a lot why it continues to fly under the radar.

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No, dood, we totally will someday create this Utopian free market, perfect competition system that will exist some day! Just trust me! All we have to do is abolish the government, then, all our problems will go away. Authority bad! Unless, it's something I have idealistic moralist personal beliefs that almost always make me a useful idiot for corporations and the ultra rich.