ATF Measuring OAL With Brace Folded?

It's unconstitutional.

Its all fucked.

fractal chess

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>no panties
l-lewd...

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Why does this matter? I thought being under 26 inches was fine for a pistol. Until you put a foregrip on, then it must be over 26"

Am I wrong? If so, why?

You don't say.

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They were taking pistol models, putting folding braces on them to get them over 26" OAL, then adding VFGs and selling them classified as "firearms". The ATF then decided they hadn't shot a pup in long enough so this is their newest crusade apparently.

Congrats, its an aow instead
Jk I don't know the length

sounds like it only applies to places with a minimum OAL requirement.

she's in a one piece

>implying they don't monitor most firearms forums
>implying they don't know where you live/haven't known for some time

What is the perceived benefit of enforcing this rule?
Pissing off a bunch of private citizen consumers ex post facto?
Won't it take them time, resources, personnel and money to follow through on this enforcement?
Is there not enough tobacco smuggling or untaxed booze to crack down on?

There must be something going on to motivate this, it's arbitrary, even for them

Better bust out this badboy.

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Still not half as ridiculous as accepting the whole "it's a brace, not a stock" thing and letting shit like go under pistol.

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The long short of it is that these are NOT pistols. They are "firearms". This is not really an issue for a pistol ar, as long as you do not have a foregrip on it. Which, correct me if I'm wrong, makes it an AOW.

Read the article, it'll explain everything. Basically the reason they wentf after Freedom Shoppe is because to exist in CT, these NEED to fall inside a specific loophole. And by rewriting the rules, this becomes an issue.

This is predominately an issue for CT residents, as there's been chat that they've gone after some people with pinned folding stocks as well.

Such is life in a ban state.

Can I stick an sb tactical brace on that? Asking for a friend.

Well that thing is automatic so might as well put a stock on it.

I have to wonder what kind of person joins the ATF or IRS... its like they heard what America was founded upon and said, "you know what, fuck that, let's make this place suck as much cock as humanly possible. the patriot douche bags who called us commie in high school are gonna find out the hard way who wears the big boy pants"
>youtu.be/uADb3NyYlSA

a kid i knew since middle school wanted to go FBI or CIA. his father cheated on his wife and made his kids and my friend hate their mother. He became a literal fedora atheist and tried to convert everybody at school to communism and atheism. I think he said he also wanted to try applying to the ATF, but by high school i wasn't friends with him at all.

Every article I've ever seen from TFB that interpreted firearms law got it wrong. Usually laughably so.

And that's the problem. You can't add length to a pistol and make it a "firearm". The "firearm" classification is a catch-all and once a gun has ever been a rifle, pistol, or shotgun it can never fall under the catch-all. That's why prior to the factory version, the homemade not-sbs's with the Shockwave grip had to be made from factory pistol grip only shotguns.
The Freedom Shoppe was selling apparently selling unregistered AOWs made from pistols and got caught.

tl;dr: The company was violating established regulations and are now crying "muh ebil ATF" for sympathy. TFB bought it because they're all idiots.

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>linking TFB

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>Every article I've ever seen from TFB that interpreted firearms law got it wrong. Usually laughably so.
>gets firearms law laughably wrong

The reason you can't un-shotgun/un-rifle a shotgun/rifle is because the definitions of SBS/SBR include "weapon made from a shotgun/rifle". But there is no "weapon made from a pistol" language anywhere in the NFA, so there's no corresponding problem un-pistoling a pistol. If the non-pistol is over 26" OAL, it becomes a Title 2 Firearm; if under, it becomes an AOW.

An AOW is a title 2 firearm you fucking retard, a "firearm" is not a pistol and does not conform to laws pertaining to pistols
"A vertical foregrip MAY be added to a pistol as long as the Overall Length (OAL) is greater than 26", regardless of barrel length, and providing the weapon remains unconcealed"
johnpierceesq.com/can-you-add-a-vertical-fore-grip-to-an-ar-pistol/

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Was his name jason?

People who want to get a sweet Federal job with a pension, not work hard, and retire early.

I fucking hate it. I should have known better to vote for a New York Democrat, and we ended up having fucking 2 of them on the ballot, with another gaining ground in the democrat primaries,
Just fucking nuke us already god damn

>Congress and state legislatures pass hundreds of unconstitutional gun laws
>that's fine
>ATF interprets one of these laws
>OMG it's the end of the world

Yeah that looka fuckin big gay

So if I have a shockwave on my 10.5 AR, OAL measures 26.5 from the back of the brace to the end of the threaded portion of the barrel, I'm good to out a foregrip on it?

Its not, notice the AFG. Its not a VFG

I absolutely am a fucking retard for not catching that typo. In a post calling someone else out for getting firearms law wrong, no less.
I did mean Title 1 Firearm, of course.

Yes.

Shit is so fucked. So many bullshit laws now that something can be legal for one person and illegal for the next. ATF may say one thing but you need to assume they're going to interpret the law to the fullest of their power when it's practical for them

20 armed men kicking in your door is hardly "letting" them in.

There are multiple definitions of "retire".

It must suck to live in Connecticut.
>(II) Any grip of the weapon, including a pistol grip, a thumbhole stock, or any other stock, the use of which would allow an individual to grip the weapon, resulting in any finger on the trigger hand in addition to the trigger finger being directly below any portion of the action of the weapon when firing;

>they got fucked because they were pistols first, and not properly manufactured as "Firearms"

Interesting, I suspect you may be right. However, it still doesn't explain why they were measuring them folded/collapsed...

care to bring a non-american up to speed on your laws? They seem complicated.

I often wonder the same thing myself. IMO they have to be

A)Douchebags that want some kind of power

B)Assholes with no moral compass who are in it for the money

C) Retards that truly believe that all their actions are just

Yeah but the ATF is gonna start coming after this too. You're creating a firearm that's no longer a pistol as it now is intended for two hands to operate which is the difference between a pistol an AOW.
How are you gonna argue in court that you have an angled foregrip on there but nah dude it's still intended for one hand use

You sure can buddy. Funny thing about the brace, it can be extended and fixed in place with plastic weld. Ya know, for comfort.

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There are people who see the ATF for what they are and what they do and want to be the change in the organization.

OAL has always been with brace folded, if the gun can fire with the brace in a folded position.

>This is not really an issue for a pistol ar, as long as you do not have a foregrip on it. Which, correct me if I'm wrong, makes it an AOW.

Nope, you can have a vertical foregrip on your pistol provided that the pistol's overall length is 26" or more.

All of the above.

No, that's wrong. Read the article.

get a fightlite lower on that
it's ugly as sin

>lmoa just put a 550 dollar bit of plastic on the end so it doesn't look ugly

firearmsblog is wrong. I literally have a printed ATF letter in my gun bag from the lawyer's office that got this point clarified, because I run a VFG on a pistol and I value the life of my dog.

This belongs in the abomination thread. Jesus H.

He's right, that's why OAL for AR pistols is measured from the end of the buffer, not from the end of whatever notastock you have on at the time. The ATF was just measuring and certifying shit wrong for probably years. (shocker)

I've yet to see anybody get charged for a dong on a draco, I imagine because that shit is an AOW by design

>implying the ATF can't tell you one thing, even though they've told a bunch of other people the exact opposite

That's the whole point of this. They can change their mind at the drop of a hat. Even if they've given a bunch of documentation saying something is OK. But it's cool, I'm sure they'll politely knock and ask if you have any letters before shooting your dog in the middle of the night

>Guadalupe Sanchez, 16, cries in the arms of her mother, Elida Sanchez
I can't tell which is which.

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>the Shockwave grip had to be made from factory pistol grip only shotguns.
That's because it would be an AOW. It's a shotgun the AOW definition was designed for shotguns.

TFB just updated the post. The gun shop was fucking with Connecticut AWB, not federal level legislation.

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No you can't. Modifying the brace, especially increasing length is the same as putting a stock on.

I don't understand, gun is pistol, pistol has no required length?

Wait, wait wait... hold up.

I can put a VFG on my AR pistol if the OAL is 26" or greater?

Because if it’s over 26” it becomes a “firearm”, not a pistol anymore

Hmm... wait again.
I have a conceal carry "handgun" permit.
Are you telling me if it's over 26" it's not a handgun?
That's a problem for me if so.

Opinion letters are not law and the ATF has authority to change their opinion at any time. Protect fluffy, m8

Check your local laws before you dive into the federal thing. In my state you can't CC anything over 12 inches. So even tho something like a draco is a 'pistol', you can't CC it.

Whatever, jokes on them anyway.

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why can't americans write a law that actually works?

The ATF doesnt give a shit about your CC. You'll get fucked by your local LEO if at all. Just a friendly heads up but you keep on do'n you man.

You know ATF's position got slapped down in court even for VFGs? Even if they extend it to AFGs, it's not gonna hold up any better.

The definition of pistol:
>A weapon ORIGINALLY designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, ...
ATF tries to avoid the obvious meaning of "originally" by claiming that when you slide a VFG on a rail, you're making a whole new gun, and this new gun "originally" has a VFG and is thus intended to be fired with two hands. But that's bullshit and the courts know it.

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Sounds like we need a hero.

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>ATF tries to avoid the obvious meaning of "originally" by claiming that when you slide a VFG on a rail, you're making a whole new gun, and this new gun "originally" has a VFG and is thus intended to be fired with two hands. But that's bullshit and the courts know it.
Because they reference the phrase "to create or recreate" and because they're a fucking dictionary they just interpret the pistol as being a completely brand new firearm by throwing a grip on it.

Your letter means shit. Its not law, its just the opinion of one clerk. They can change your mind tomorrow and slot Fido

So if I build an 80% in to a AOW I'm good to go because It was built that way from the start? What about striped lowers? How the fuck do they even know what's what at that point?

I miss carnik con

Is it odd i find B the least offensive option?

> Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

Is that a dickless dick? Like a ummm pussy dick

chortled.

You can honestly put a lot of "vertical" foregrips on shorter than that, the catch is make sure it's not 90 degrees. The other catch is this is pretty much as close to the line of being illegal as possible so dont go flashing it around

>thefirearmb
stopped reading there

Fuck you apes, he's your bitch. Stop trying to pawn your mistakes off on us.

>they've gone after some people with pinned folding stocks as well.
Wait what??? On the cz scoprion?

They took customer records from the FFL so they already have address and of the owners they've visited they have confiscated property with no compensation nor any possibility of registering the weapons under the NFA, either at the time nor in the future.

I don't have much to lose in my sad life but if I was in that situation and they showed up at my door I'd get a lawyer on retainer immediately and basically tell them they'd have to physically break into the property or come back with a warrant if they wanted my legally purchased and (under 80s years of established legal precadent) possessed property. I'd make it as big of a shitshow as possible to paint them in the worst light while recording/live streaming the entire ordeal. Then again the problem is you're basically gambling here with odds depending on your local jurisdiction and how much they're allowed to just make shit up as they go along.

We know ATF/FTB have done some downright disgraceful things in the past in regards to firearms legality and even forced them to retract sometimes, but this taking hard definitions set in stone and enforced as such for 80 years and just pretending they don't exist and can change on a whim. This potentially puts millions of firearm owners in the cross-hairs of a federal felony charge for any number of firearms made since 1934.

This is all CT Assault Pistol shit. Why the ATF is involved in state affair is beyond me, but I honestly don't give a fuck. I'll continue gripping my pistols however the fuck I want.

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ATF doesn't enforce state level laws like that. What's going on in this case is the agents in question are claiming the firearms being sold are unregistered AOWs despite 80 years of precedent stating otherwise. It just so happens that these configurations were made to avoid running afoul of CT's awful knee-jerk constitutional violating laws. If ATF is really going to now start enforcing OAL with stocks folded/collapsed like the the California DOJ does just to be assholes it opens up a huge can of worms.

I just re-read it and apparently the owner of the store was REGISTERING the guns as "FIREARMS" and not the pistols they arrived at his store as. And from what I can sus out is illegal in CT under their assault pistol ruling. I could be totally wrong there though.
Inversely, this can't be a new 'opinion' they're running with because the SBA3 brace literally just got accepted and was measured [according to the owner of SB Tactical] fully extended.

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That's just the thing though, the CT police/state officials aren't involved in this whatsoever and ATF doesn't enforce state level law. The CT law I'm sure is complex but I would assume based on laziness they wholesale copied definitions from either the 94 ban, newer incarnations of that ban from Fienstein, or existing federal law. Based on a cursory examination and lack of any action/enforcement at the state level I would say having the 2nd handgrip means they legally don't qualify as "pistols" under CT state law just as they don't under federal and thus are exempt from CTs ban. The definition of "handgun" includes the terminology "designed and intended to be fired with one hand " which is stupid by nonetheless that's what we're working with.

The "Title 1 Firearm" definition mostly dealt with stripped lowers but the Xo-26b from Franklin was the first full gun I heard of with that official definition. There is no shoulder stock so it can't be a rifle, 2 grips so it legally can't be a pistol because of the design intention, and under if it's over 26" OAL it can't legally be an AOW. What's at stake here is not CT state law but what bearing FTB and NFA precedent have against ATF's current claims, because since the ATFs inception the accepted standard has always been to measure OAL in the longest possible configuration with regards to a folding or telescoping stock. There are no exceptions I am aware of to this rule in ATF or NFA history, and the only exceptions are state level bullshit like here in Cali.

Exactly. So It's business as usual for me, measured extended, fuck em.

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>Oh look,
ar15.com/forums/General/-Ron-Paul-Republicans-Democrats-Teaming-Up-for-Federal-Gun-Confiscation-Bill/5-2113314/

>Ron Paul saying some controversial shit again with no legitimate back up
Wow

the fact that guns like this so short and obviously breaking the law (or in the spirit of), is fucking disgusting, why the Yankee ATF won't ban them shows a blatant disrespect for the law i will never no. Thank god in 'ol blighty we would never have this problem, as we may be a wee bit strict, but we do ban what we say and never betray the spirit of the law!

Where'd you get that chrome lined booster?