France and Germany sign letters of intent to develop future tank and combat air systems

>France and Germany sign letters of intent to develop future tank and combat air systems

Key Points
France and Germany have signed letters of intent to develop the MGCS and NGWS within a FCAS
>The MGCS is expected to be introduced in 2035 and the FCAS and CIFS in around 2040
On 19 June, French Armed Forces (Defence) Minister Florence Parly and her German counterpart, Ursula von der Leyen, signed letters of intent (LOI) to develop the Main Ground Combat System (MGCS) and Next Generation Weapon System (NGWS) within a Future Combat Air System (FCAS).

In the LOI on the MGCS, the ministers agreed that the demonstration phase should begin by mid-2019 and that detailed operational requirements would be established by 2024, with Germany as the lead nation.

The MGCS will be integrated into the French Scorpion programme and the German Führungsinformationssystem Heer (Army Command, Control and Information System, FüInfoSys) with deployment planned in 2035. The German MoD said the system would replace the Leopard 2 in Bundeswehr service, going beyond a linear upgrade of the tank's capabilities.

The ministry described the MGCS as the land system industry's most important future armament programme, sending a strong signal regarding the refocus towards national and alliance defence.

The LOI also covers co-operation on a Common Indirect Fire System (CIFS), starting with joint studies and leading to the introduction of the system starting about 2040.

Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (KMW) and Nexter Defence Systems (KNDS) welcomed the Franco-German announcement of the joint development of an MGCS and CIFS, saying this co-operation was the "key motivation" for the creation of KNDS in 2015. They went on to say the projects "will shape the future of European armies’ main combat capabilities and contribute to Europe’s sovereignty and strategic autonomy."

KNDS presented the Euro Main Battle Tank (EMBT) demonstrator at Eurosatory 2018, which was held in Paris on 11-15 June.

Europa Superpower

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Other urls found in this thread:

bmvg.de/resource/blob/24288/6548107ac4b24da5611745b18252099a/20180427-factsheet-future-combat-air-system---anteil-next-generation-weapon-system-data.pdf
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBB_Lampyridae
baesystems.com/en/product/f-35-lightning-ii
flightglobal.com/news/articles/brexit-throws-anglo-french-fcas-programme-into-doubt-446592/
twitter.com/NSFWRedditImage

If there's one thing that these multinational defense projects are known for, it's delivering a quality end result on time and on budget.

bmvg.de/resource/blob/24288/6548107ac4b24da5611745b18252099a/20180427-factsheet-future-combat-air-system---anteil-next-generation-weapon-system-data.pdf

>deliberately excluding The UK
>turning your back on the only European nation with 5th gen experience
>turning your back on Rolls-Royce engines in favour of inferior french ones
>Turning your back on the only European nation to be building advanced autonomous aircraft (pic related)
>tuning your back on a close geographically

All in favour of combining the two nations that caused the most problems in Joint projects.

ah well, the UK has 5th gens now. it doesn't really matter what the French and Germans want to have in 2040.

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Did Germany and France actually exclude Britain? Did Britain even want to take part? What do you mean with 5th gen experience, that drone project? Germany and France have comparable projects with the nEUROn and Barracuda. And what, do you expect Germany and France to pursue collaborations with the UK as seriously as before when the UK clearly distanced itself with Brexit?

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For the MGCS at least, Britain doesn't really have anything to add. For the fighter, the Brits have already got the F-35 and are working on that Anglo-Jap 6th generation thing last time I checked.

Actually, Germany and France are now doing a non-technical study to determine scenarios and requirements for a next generation aircraft.

UK, Sweden, Italy and Spain are all part of the FCAS program.
So they could join at a later stage.

France will throw a massive hissy fit then leave the project halfway through, then Germany will cancel it.
EU super-poor.

The Iron Cross makes everything better.

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>Did Germany and France actually exclude Britain? Did Britain even want to take part?

The UK and France decided to combine work on their UAV's in order to work towards FCAS. The French wanted to keep as much design and building in France as possible. so they then went ahead and signed contracts with germany without offering participation to the UK.

It's a fairly standard french tactic to ask to see your notes then run away, I think it's the third time this has happened.

>What do you mean with 5th gen experience, that drone project?

Tier 1 Partner on F35, two domestic 5th gen projects, one cancelled fairly early(pic related), the other merged with the JSF program.

Then there's the work BAE has done on the stuff that really makes a 5th gen aircraft - sensor fusion and ESM. F22, F35, B2 amoungst others are all flying with a fair bit of BAE electronic kit. You'll see a lot of americans claim this is compartmentalised, which is the case for some things, however, all this stems from the BAE office in Edinburgh which is now SalesEX or something IIRC.

The big thing to note about Taranis Vs neuron, Taranis is an AI test platform, it's not just another UAV that is controlled from a caravan. It's testing software to make it fully autonomous during the critical stage of a mission.

> And what, do you expect Germany and France to pursue collaborations with the UK as seriously as before when the UK clearly distanced itself with Brexit?

Brexit was not a vote to distance ourselfs from Europe, it was a vote to remove ourselves from the European Parliament and European commision - the ministers and commissioners of which (who are disliked and unpopular in their own countries) are now desperate to turn it into an US V Them situation.

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>SalesEX

Selex ES, it's owned by Leonardo now rather than BAE, but it's still a British company in terms of what it makes. Makes VERY high end radars enabled for 5th gen technology integration.

>It's testing software to make it fully autonomous during the critical stage of a mission.

A bit vague. Taranis' autonomy is to permit it to carry out navigation, avoidance and seek with faster reactions than a human waiting for time lag and to identify routes that humans might not see, and to reduce emissions by not being actively connected to receiving.

The actual strike element will still be hardwired as manual only, for very good fucking reason.

Attached: Taranis shadow.jpg (2000x1130, 40K)

Smells like so much buthurt

UK would pretty much sell their mothers to become a part of a 6th gen aircraft project.

It's also the closest thing that will be designed around their own requirement with UK being part of the European Technology
Acquisition Programm for the FCAS.

France and Germany also communicated that other European partners may join.

>Selex ES, it's owned by Leonardo now rather than BAE

That's the one. They acquired the offices in Edinburgh, presumably for access to the testing chambers.

>The actual strike element will still be hardwired as manual only, for very good fucking reason.

Taranis is not a test platform for that aspect though, getting a machine to fire at a preselected set of approved targets is a mature technology, you see it in some missiles/sam systems already. Brimstone comes to mind.

Nice argument you've got there.

>In the LOI on the MGCS, the ministers agreed that the demonstration phase should begin by mid-2019 and that detailed operational requirements would be established by 2024, with Germany as the lead nation.

Years will be wasted with picking a cat's name.

so

new tank in 2035
new artillery in 2040
new aircraft in 2040

What a time to be alive.

>new tank in 2035
>new artillery in 2040
>new aircraft in 2040
>What a time to be alive.

What, in 22 years?

Sounds like normal developement time.

not contesting that, contesting that now probably isn't the time to be alive if that's what you're excited about.

Where to start?
First of all, the British add all the chances they wanted to go in with them French on a drone. They are bailing, reportedly because they are realising that it would be too hard to propose equipment on par with the frogs
Tier 1 f35 country. Yeah right. They don't do much more than Italy or Israel, but they threw a unbelievable hiss to be more than the other, to preserve the pride
The other 5th Gen project are jokes and you know it. Turkey, so much lol. As it will be even possible. Japan is the same. Bae is just eager to get money somewhere because they are heading to a wall
I could go on, but I have better things to do

>Sounds like normal developement time.
How so? For the MGCS that would be around 20 years, the Leclerc took around what, 7-8? I can't think of much that's changed that would necessitate doubling the development time

>Leclerc
>1977 the start of the new tank developement
>introduced in 1993

16 years

France and germany agree to team up to take 40 years to make inferior copies of American ideas and technology

Neat

Got a source for that? Everything I've seen says that the development of the Leclerc started in 1982. That's not to say that they hadn't identified the need for a new tank before then, but the project only started at that date.

>almost every single joint project with France or Germany has ended in two different designs because neither can handle someone else making something

MBT-70
MBT-80
Leopard/AMX-30
Eurofighter/Rafale
French/UK Carriers

Come to think of it, has there ever been an instance where two or more countries came together to build something and everyone was satisfied in the end?

Pretty much everything you said is wrong

2/10 made me reply.

>Come to think of it, has there ever been an instance where two or more countries came together to build something and everyone was satisfied in the end?

Tornado, Jaguar, various missiles.

F-35, granted that was only tokenly other countries and the only people dissatisfied are never served reformist retards

Well Sweden and Norway made the Archer artil-

Germs actually had promising 5th gen development that got shut down by the sharts

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He says, with zero sources whatsoever.

>Tier 1 f35 country. Yeah right. They don't do much more than Italy or Israel, but they threw a unbelievable hiss to be more than the other, to preserve the pride

The UK and the US are the only to countries with access to F35 source code, and the only two countries who can generate the daily operation codes that make the F35 work.

The UK designed and built various parts of the F35, it keeps around 10,000 brits in work in the UK and is producing tens of billions for the UK's economy.

A british test pilot was the first to fly the jet.

Ain't gonna do your Googling for you, Nigel. I did enough by providing you with a pic and the name.

There does seem to be some success in Europe with missiles and MBDA.

MILAN was a Franco-German project which then saw service throughout Europe. Meteor missile was initially British led, but Germany got in early and provided a lot of the technology for the engine now being widely ordered. The Aster missiles from PAAMS are happily in service with UK France and Italy. The SCALP/stormshadow missile between France & UK continues to be used.

That wasn't a 5th Gen, it was just a low observable aircraft, like the F117.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBB_Lampyridae

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>that got shut down by the sharts
So do you have a source for this or not?

And Italy have the only assembly plant out of the us
And Israel got to implement their own sensors and shit
So we're back to my point which was "muh spechal relationship"
As of right now, you're just sucking on the American tit. Learn to live with it, it'll only get worse

>F&T Programm zur Vorbereitung der Technologie
>Umsetzung im Rahmen einer nicht-technischen Studie
>No LD IDP
>No Initiative
>Just politics
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA fucking politicians creating random useless projects without following the proper procedere just for politics and distraction

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not the guy you're responding too, but

>And Italy have the only assembly plant out of the us
So what? They just assemble different parts of the plane together, the UK actually build those parts

>And Israel got to implement their own sensors and shit
Which isn't guaranteed to be as good as the original. It doesn't undermine UK's contribution to the F-35 project in anyways either.

>And Italy have the only assembly plant out of the us

Final assembly, the parts are mostly made elsewhere.

>And Israel got to implement their own sensors and shit

because Israel wanted to.

why the UK would want to is beyond me - since as the only teir 1 partner we helped create the F35's requirements. it's exactly what we want barring ASRAAM and Meteor issues but that's the fault of government indecision over ordering B or C.

Oh man I can't wait to see what they come up with a decade behind schedule just so that the project will get it's balls cut off as soon as any german """journalist""" can justify putting the words "killer" and "drone" into one sentence. We don't even call our Destroyers Destroyers anymore ffs.

>5th gen

it was no more 5th gen than the F-117, that is to say, it wasn't at all.

It must've been nuts to live through WWII in to the 70s, where we were rolling out new tanks and planes every 5 minutes.

>Two proudly muslim nations about to develop the most advanced vehicles known to man

Western world BTFO

>Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (KMW) and Nexter Defence Systems (KNDS)
...
KNDS litteraly means "KMW & Nexter Defense Systems"

>m-muh UK is excluded!
That's called "Brexit" user. And it's a UK decision. Kindly fuck off.

>The French wanted to keep as much design and building in France as possible. so they then went ahead and signed contracts with germany without offering participation to the UK.
>It's a fairly standard french tactic to ask to see your notes then run away, I think it's the third time this has happened.
That's not how it works. That's not how any of this works.
The current work on the french UK FCAS is still ongoing.
The French german FCAS is a different program entirely.
The Lancaster house treaty is still in full effect.

>all of this amazing technology being used for the sake of a glorified continent-wide refugee camp and shitty, a dying supranational institution, and to ensure that more interracial couples appear on television ads, and to make sure pureblooded whites kill as many of eachother as they can while protecting low IQ niggers if a war breaks out.

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back to Jow Forums Nigel.

Just to add, its around 25,000 workers in the UK, about 95% of the code and around 15% of other systems. So its a fairly hefty contribution.

ok jacques, back to those frogs

Based

Pointless. It'll be many, many, many years late and cost more than what is already under development.

How can Russia even compete?

Time for BAE and RR to lobby the shit out it

>How can Russia even compete?
by staying united as a country. France was conquered by africans and muslims and Germany's a nation with an incredibly low birth rate and now they're gonna end up in a civil war.

...

Airbus is most likely moving out of UK.

RIP British aviation industry

Cute

And people are actually serious when posting such nonsense?

The entire UK aviation industry includes 120k workers. I don't believe that 1/4 are working on the F-35.

which means they will sell their UK factories and business.

BAE (most likely) will buy them and it opens the door for BAE to restart civilian aircraft production..

>When it reaches peak production, the programme will be worth some £1 billion to UK industry alone, with an estimated 25,000 UK jobs sustained across more than 500 companies in the supply chain.

baesystems.com/en/product/f-35-lightning-ii

That being said, just because a carbon fibre company has 600 employees doesnt mean that all of them are in work because of F35.

it just means that F35 gives business to 500 companies that together employ 25,000 people in the UK.

Robots weapon and drones will/are the decisive thing now where France Germany and UK place themself in this race i suppose USA Russia are head & shoulders above but the rest China etc

Making this many butthurt assumptions without even googling the subject. See

Wrong.

FCAS is dead in the water, France and Germany's new project supersedes it.

>FCAS was expected to move into a full-scale demonstrator development programme at the end of 2017, following a formal two-year feasibility study begun in November 2014 and a further 12-month study phase last year. “We wanted a contract to build a demonstrator,” Trappier says, but that has not happened.

>Now, he says, attention has moved to a proposed Franco-German project that would see Dassault and Airbus design a new combat system for the 2040s, as a successor to the countries' respective Rafale and Eurofighter programmes. Details remain under discussion, but significant unmanned capabilities, perhaps as indicated by FCAS and the Dassault-led Neuron programme, are expected.

flightglobal.com/news/articles/brexit-throws-anglo-french-fcas-programme-into-doubt-446592/

The numbers are bullshit of course. Typical US marketing speech.

The project still falls under the umbrella of the ETAP regarding to the FCAS.

Germany and France have actually the political will to start the developement of such a project.

see

fact sheet from the German Bundeswher

roadmap

>signing High Level Common Operational Requirements Document
>German-French non-technical study
>multinational extension (they also specific noted Spain as additional potential partner)

>The project still falls under the umbrella of the ETAP regarding to the FCAS.

No.

FCAS was a project between BAE and Dassault.

Dassault has pushed ahead without BAE because they are desperate to push on because they can't afford a manned 5th gen project, so need to work on the unmanned project ASAP.

The UK is happy with Typhoon F35 and various drones until the 2040's by which point it will have decided what manned/unmanned system to replace F35, and Typhoon with.

It's like you don't even read aviation news.

Which doesn't magically turn the project into FCAS.

> spain working on high tech military project
What the fug

What a waste of money. Germany should focus on fixing the BW, putting in place another draft, and making sure that Ossis, Turks, and Arabs aren't the only ones held responsible for the defense of the land.

Spain actually has quite a large amount of experience in building aircraft components from carbon composite materials.

IIRC they build some of the wings for Eurofighter and various Airbus products.

>FCAS was a project between BAE and Dassault.

This is wrong.

Germany, France, United Kingdom, Spain, Italy, Sweden are all part of European Technology Acquisition Programme. They all worked on studies regarding to the FCAS. which the linked Bundeswehr fact sheet is refering to.

These nations are also the potantial developement partners for that new aircraft system.

ITP, the Spanish part of Airbus, Aernnova.

>The numbers are bullshit of course. Typical US marketing speech.

They are also only speaking about "sustaining" jobs. Which can means a lot of things.

It's also nothing compared to the +40k jobs the Eurofighter Typhoon actually created in the UK alone.

>some billions

They are sure super specific.

>138 shitty F-35 planned

Amazing

It's either way not even a good return.