Was Vietnam winnable?

Was Vietnam winnable?

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We did win.

Unfortunately the South Vietnamese lost.

Bomb the living shit out of the North and invade it, you could probably at least make the government capitulate. You'd never convince the people to stop fighting though.

Nope. We were winning and then we gave up and went home.

Explain how we won, we lost 60 thousand men, spend like 160 trillion and the communists took the country.

The best case would have been a 2nd Korean War and subsequent division because you bet the Chinese would have invaded the moment the US went into the North.

We lost because of the media and politics.

We won the vast majority of our engagements. We were honestly fucked the minute we started the war. We never should've done a full scale invasion. We should have just trained local forces and developed our special forces corps.

>we won but the government who we came to prop up and establish as a steadfast against communism lost and the guys we came to push back across the DMZ and eradicate there presence south of the DMZ won, but yeah we still won too!

amerifat 4d chess when it comes to denying the loss of the Vietnam war never gets old

not really the communist were far more popular then the corrupt south Vietnam government and overall far more motivated to win then either the Americans or South Vietnamese, the only thing America could've accomplished would be maintaing a stalemate as long as they stationed there military there.

But the drain on resources would've been very wasteful and further damaged there international image and public image (which it already did to an extent). Letting communism fail on its own accord was the best option, instead millions died and suffered just to see that happen at the end of it all anyway.

I was always thinking the same thing. Maybe the civilian casualties would be too high and they didn't wanna risk being seen as Germany 2 the electric boogaloo. I know lots of civilians died to U.S. bombings but its easier to hide when farmers are dying.

I think the media and politics effects are still being felt today it was so bad but as far as the operation we were doing that for a while but it wasn't enough.

T. North Vietnamese.

The only reason we lost was bc muh humanizing the enemy and international fag laws not letting us cross into louse

It could have been if we convinced Diem and especially Nhu to quit persecuting Buddhists so much or actually developed viable replacements before the coup. As it happened, the chain of succession just went to more incompetent leadership.

The best bet would have been to get Ho-Chi-Minh to stop being as much of a gommie back in the late '40s by helping him instead of the French.

It was a win. My brother went over for a summer and picked up a wife and only spent like $900 for living there 3 months. Shes not bad looking and it doesn't seem like they hate Americans. Seems comfy.

No. US lacked political will and balls to win the war. US didn't have political will stay 20 years in the south conducting long term COIN operation or balls to risk escalation by invading north. Probably biggest issue was lack of clear goals.

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>The best bet would have been to get Ho-Chi-Minh to stop being as much of a gommie back in the late '40s by helping him instead of the French.
Probably best bet would have been not delaying French in re-establishing control over their colonies when Japs capitulated. US interfered with that and that gave Vietminh access to a lot of Japanese weaponry. Vietnam War was caused by for most parts a complicated mess of several contradicting US policies in immediate aftermath of WWII.

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Yes, Vietnam won.

Not really thanks to the french.

French would never have been able to reestablish control long term. Even before WW2, their grip was weakening over rural areas and the Viet-Minh gained a great deal of power during the war. Any solution would have to be Vietnamese led.

If US had unconditionally supported Vietminh there is good chance that French would have stayed out of NATO. That probably would have had marginal effect on the alliance.

>we lost 60 thousand men
>as opposed to the 1.1 million lost by North Vietnam
In terms of K/D we did fucking great. We were just too eager to listen to liberal druggies whose main motivation for opposing the war was the fact they didn't want to get drafted.

Certainly was for the PAVN/NLF

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> Horror. Horror has a face...And you must make a friend of horror. Horror and moral terrorare your friends. If they are not then they are enemies to be feared.They are truly enemies. I remember when I was with Special Forces...Seems
a thousand centuries ago...We went into a camp to innoculate the children.We left the camp after we had innoculated the children for Polio, and this old man came running after us and he was crying. He couldn't see. We went back there and they had come and hacked off every innoculated arm. There they were in a pile...A pile of little arms. And I remember...I...I...I cried... I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out. I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it. I never want
to forget. And then I realized...like I was shot...Like I was shot with a diamond...a diamond bullet right through my forehead...And I thought:
My God...the genius of that. The genius. The will to do that. Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized they were
stronger than we. Because they could stand that these were not monsters...These were men...trained cadres...these men who fought with
their hearts, who had families, who had children, who were filled with love...but they had the strength...the strength...to do that. If I had ten
divisions of those men our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to have men who are moral...and at the same time who are able to
utilize their primordal instincts to kill without feeling...without passion... without judgement...without judgement. Because it's judgement that defeats us.

Was he right?

>few months after we leave they start up their shit again
>south vietnam lost the second war and somehow it's the US's fault
We win.

die, you anti-democracy commie bastard

You'd have to actually invade the North instead of only defending the South

you americans lost because of your inferior genes, lack of bravery and your nationwide cuck fetish.

>The best bet would have been to get Ho-Chi-Minh to stop being as much of a gommie back in the late '40s by helping him instead of the French.
The best bet would've been to have helped him after WW1, but lol freedumz only 4 wipipo

this.

Its people like you that are the problem, your patriotism is being exploited by the very people you hate.

Why should young US men be forced to risk there lives and be killed so some lobbyists, politicians and contractors can profit? Vietnam achieved NOTHING, 60,000 Americans died for NOTHING.

Yet nearly half a decade later you support it why? We all know communism is bound to fail inevitably why should we kill millions and sacrifice thousands just to delay the inevitable? Vietnam wanted communism for the most part so why should we stop them? let them have it and when they get sick of it then maybe we can come in and help them.

But you would rather lick boots and tear up at the national anthem rather then realize very powerful and twisted people threw away the lives of thousands of young men for am extra buck, or another footnote on there political/military career.

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Those gooks fought like pussies and communist countries made everybody poor so they could produce weapons. Nigger, the entire point of communism is to make the people equal[ly poor] so the government gets all your hard earned money.
I guess small penises are followed by small balls.

>We were losing and then we gave up and went home

ftfy

France pulled out of NATO regardless

Still got the oil. After all the genocide.

>has never learned about the Vietnam war

Totally, for the North Vietnamese.

> Americans still refuse to learn from their epic failure

This is good.

no for both sides

How to win Veitnam
>Invade North Veitnam
>force the Commies to commit to ground combat, BLEED THEM DRY, SCORCHED EARTH POLICY
>South Veitnam troops go full SS in the North, helicopter rides EVERYWHERE.
>Have a Special Forces unit called the "Black Knives"
>their job is getting rid of Journalists that have pro communist sympathy
>also this unit is employed in the U.S.
>Kent State is 9th page news
>kids dying left and right due to spiked drugs
>professors dying from home invasions and muggings
>KKK used as ground troops in America, they get full sanction, Selma gets M60'd
>Weather Underground BTFO, think Waco, EVERY WEEK.
>The left completely flees into Canada
>1950 TURBO CHARGE++++
>Now
>The Civil Rights issue was eventually resolved, the Republicans gently bring it on
>no Black Panthers, no welfare
>race relations are far better
>South Africa follows the same plan, Rhodesia is still alive
>China is North Korea x1000000

oh boy, here comes the summer/k/id armed with the things he learned from dennis prager university

Yes. The US just kept giving back territories, in favor of a blood and guts approach that didn't work against an endless supply of people willing to die for their country.

not with the same civilian S.V. and U.S. politicians and strategy

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The problem with Vietnam is that we went to the other side of the planet to kill commies who just wanted to make our nike shoes when we should have been killing the commies here in our own country that were in the initial stages of infiltrating our institutions of government, media, and higher learning.

Yeah, we just playing defense when we should have been marching on Hanoi

What would victory in Vietnam look like?

Yes, had we backed Minh immediately post WWII when he was pro America, instead of cucking him in favor of trying to help the faggot French hold their colonies.

Nuclear war with heavy casualities for both bands

The OTAN and the URSS are being torn apart limb by limb by the third world population as their zerg rush leaded by warlords and dictators that reclaim the Old world for themselves.

Usa becomes Ciudad Juarez: the country
Europe become the Caliphate of New Africa
Russia become Vietnam 2: cold edition

Soviet subversion is one hell of a drug.

Define Win? Because we could have wiped out all life in the Country. hell we make so much cement that we could have turned that shit into a parking lot.

Yes and no, we couldn't really go on an offensive into the north if we could we would've probably won but that's a huge "if" because politics with China and other communist being all annoying

>become as bad if not worse then your enemies, destroy international respect and become a authoritarian freedom hating dictatorship just so you can write that you won the Vietnam war in the Wikipedia article 50 years later
yep thats why people who share opinions like yours are just an insignificant blimp in the political world

because commies rewrite history.

most of the r*tards here would say YES WE WOULDA WON ONLY IF U LET US NUKE/GENOCIDE THEM GAT DAMN GOOKS.
But the fact of the matter is murisharts lost to rice farmers with Ak's, and no amount of weaseling or what if's can change that

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No one won but the politicans

We did win it.
Then Nixon resigned, the democrats double crossed the south, and the north snatched away victory.

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the winners write history dumbass (pro tip communism lost)

Now im really starting to understand what people mean by summerfags, just hurry up and go back to school

>we won but we didn't!
just give it up amerimutt, best case scenario you guys left it at a stalemate just one that would ultimately favor the guys you failed to defeat and not in the favor of the guys you came there to help.

>but we would've won if public opinion didn't matter, or we were an authoritarian shithole!
And Hitler might;'ve won if he wasn't obsessed with racial purity and treating potential eastern European allies like subhumans, what if's? like this are the worst kind, youre literally saying America would've won if they weren't America!

>just give it up amerimutt
No we literally forced the north to the negotiating table, got all the terms we wanted, and left the country.
Go look up the paris peace accords.

The problem is that shortly after Nixon resigned, democrats gained control and betrayed all the promises we made to enforce the agreement and keep the south free.

So we won at first, then intentionally sabotaged everything and lost.

Have you heard of the concept of saving face?

No one actually on the ground thought the peace accords had cemented anything other then an oppurtunity for politicians to shake hand son TV and look like winners. You make it sound like the democrats deviously turned on the south but Nixon and the republicans lost the elections (and the ability to maintain a stalemate in Vietnam) as a direct result of North Vietnamese action.

In other words North Vietnamese military action brought about conditions that would let them win, in the rest of the world this is called winning a war.

If the NVA and VC hadnt been so resilient and effectively drew in hundreds of thousands of American soldiers forcing a unpopular draft and then remained capable enough to kill tens of thousands of American soldiers and cement poltical and military infrastructure in and around south Vietnam they wouldve lost.

You totally discount North Vietnamese commitment and action resulting in there victory and instead jump to the cliche "b-but the politicians sabotaged us!". The NVA and VC sabotaged any chance of the US being able to commit as long as it took to defeat them, and by the 70's it was clear that continued involvement was political suicide. This was a direct result of NVA and VC action, hence they won.

>You make it sound like the democrats deviously turned on the south
Yes, it is my contention that the left intentionally sabotaged US efforts in Vietnam and intentionally threw away any hope of a free south after Nixon resigned.

>but Nixon and the republicans lost the elections (and the ability to maintain a stalemate in Vietnam) as a direct result of North Vietnamese action.
...What?
They lost because of watergate.
Are you retarded?

You know what, don't answer that. You're clearly pulling this stuff out of your ass and aren't worth speaking to.
I'm choosing to end this conversation.

Could swear the US was doing great militarily but basically lost the war back home rather than actually in Vietnam. Then pulled out under some fake peace only to have the north steam roll the remains of the ARVN and local government. Problem with it was a colossal fuck up that started LONG before the war actually kicked off and was more or less a measure to keep those dirty commies from taking over all of Asia outside of the original clusterfucks.

not him but have you heard of Vietnamization? A nicely put way of the the US withdrawing to leave the country to the less then competent ARVN. Guess who started that? *Drum roll* Yes it was Nixon and the Republicans.

Want to know what else? They never would've withdrawn the way they did without the military action of the NVA and VC.

You also make it sound like the "ebil" left decided to oppose the war on its own accord (cute that you consider the democrats part of the left btw). But that was again a result of NVA and VC military action, the deaths of tens of thousands and wounding of hundreds of thousands of young US men achieved by the NVA and VC turned public opinion against the war something the Democrats simply rallied behind when it was convenient (did you forget Democrats were conducting the war as well in its earlier stages?).

Another mistake you make is the claim the Paris accords were bringing a shattered NVA to the negotiating table which is bullshit. The NVA was still capable, even more so then the ARVN and continued to conduct military action both during and after the accords. The ceasefire was literally broken days after its signing, making it pretty clear it was little more then a token "saving face" gesture.

I won't dig into the rest of what you claim, but you should actually read about the war before you go about making the laughable claim that the Paris Peace accords established the US as the victors, its embarrassing.

c r i n g e

this.

the war could have been won military, especially after the tet campaign...but was lost back at home.

>this is your mind on schizophrenia

Jews

>huuur u lose dem fights against goat herders n rice farmer with rusty ak rifle
>huuur dem gubmmints hab tanks n drones ur rifle is useless

dumb frogposter

>its schizophrenic to believe that people profit off war at the expense of others
you have much to learn in this world child

NOPE

youtube.com/watch?v=6rKg11tu3HA

I never know if the retards saying "we lost at at home" are serious or just visitors from other boards. Yeah it was probably winnable but le liberals weren't the reason, there was decades of retardation leading up to the US withdrawing.

>he doesn't know how long jews, communists and libcucks have been at this

Didn't they say they would have surrendered in 3 weeks if we didn't leave?

>Was Vietnam winnable?
If the French stayed in sure, but America really had no reason to stay after the French left the war that they the French had started.

>t.Reddit

>main motivation for opposing the war was the fact they didn't want to get drafted.
And why again should they have wanted to be drafted?

That's the deal with the French? Are they just assholes or something?

The French left because the Algerian Fellagha decided to start their revolutionary war in the French Foreign Legion's homeland. The French war in Vietnam was fought heavily by the FFL. They were a much larger force and still had large amount of autonomy in those days, and when their homeland was threatened they basically stopped giving a fuck about Vietnam and went to fight in Algeria. If anyone is interested check out this book. One of the best military memoirs I've read. He served just as France had left Vietnam and shifted focus to Algeria. All of his senior leadership were French-Indochina vets.

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>Muh million to 60 thousand k/d meme
Reasonable estimates actually put it at 450,000-600,000 combat deaths for NCA/VC and original US figures are generally regarded as inflated. Also remember the North killed 250-300,000 ARVN and a couple thousand other folks.

Given they had totally no air support and operated in the most appalling conditions lacking the first aid abilities of there opponents (who it's worth mention had more wounded overall) they did pretty well

Fuck you dude they died for nothing because the U.S gave up. Why did we fight in a war against communism when it was doomed to fail? Because it wasn't fucking obvious at the time and the domino theory was in effect, which proved to be true for that region for after vietnam fell so did cambodia and laos with only thailand holding on.

Not only after the war did it get worse for vietnam millions got sent into reeducation camps where hundreds of thousands died. While others went on boats to escape the regime that was coming, and thousands died trying to do that.

Also fuck you for making it seem so obvious when at the time it was far from that how the war result was going to be.

Yes, but like afghanistan it needed the patience and support of the people to be won which the U.S had neither. Australia and South Korea were also similar in those regards in the vietnam war.

>half a decade
It's half a century tard.

>forced the north to the negotiating table by begging them to accept concessions

lol

Yes, because wars are won on K/D ratio.

*rolls fucking eyes*

And yet in the history books, the (((rothensteins)))'
espionage and treason are never mentioned, it's only ever referenced as an accusal. The civil rights movement being undeniably a product of soviet subversion is never mentioned. MLK's inner circle being filled with communists is never mentioned. McCarthy is lied about so much that it is absurdly blatant.
And one in five professors are openly marxist (Hint: they're the ones that are writing history books).

>If you kill the enemy, they win.

the irony here is that retard trudeau has it right more than the average Jow Forumsunt

I like how your alternate history fan fiction actually has a name for your death squad.
That's how we can tell that you've really thought about this a lot in math class.

The war was French. The US was just helping an ally, so there really wasn't a "winnable" goal when the French decided to leave.

>the irony here is that retard trudeau has it right more than the average Jow Forumsunt
If you read Vietnamese history from about 100BCE-1100CE, it's pretty fucking obvious that they don't give up. There's a very strong cultural resistance to foreign oppressors, like with most countries I guess but they're pretty single-minded about it.

Even now, there are streets in very Vietnamese city named after heros and generals who fought the Chinese two thousand years ago.

The US might defeat North Vietnam militarily but they'd have to turn the country into an occupation camp to actually maintain control, the Vietnamese people would never stop trying to resist.
The Chinese governors did it with brutality and the French tried civilisation and technology and they were both rejected (though the Vietnamese happily kept the French advances afterwards).

>Are they just assholes or something?
Yes. They are horrible allies. Even in WW2 they fucked everyone over by surrendering without even attempting to fight leaving the Americnas, and the British (whom might I add did a very good job of holding their hellish lines for France's sake).

>The US might defeat North Vietnam militarily

Yeah but the US didn't even manage that so the "we won" crowd is doubly retarded

There was nothing to "win" for America.

>60 thousand dead americans
>1 milllion dead gooks
america lost

they could start by taking control of 90% of the country from the NVA and/or VC

oh wait they tried and failed

It was a French war that the Americans partook in, and there wasn't really a goal for the Americans other than "kill commie gooks" which they did very well. Once the French left there was nothing to win.

Because fuck em. And fuck you too.

Would WW2 have been winnable if we simply stopped at Paris and tried to bomb the Germans out of the rest of France? And if the Soviets were SUPPLYING them?

Where are these numbers coming from?

read a book nigger