SS vs. Wehrmacht

In regards to tactics, experience, mindset and overall competence, how did the Wehrmacht differ from the SS? I have heard gruesome stories of fanatical SS members regularly making suicidal attacks, using wounded men as traps for medical doctors, and executing unarmed civilians without dicrmination. There also seemed to be a blatant disregard for equipment preservation among some in the SS command, to the point of Wehrmacht frustration. I have also heard the SS ironically had priority in receiving certain equipment, again to Wehrmacht frustration.
I can't imagine a professional army like the Wehrmacht with a such a deep and storied pedigree would look favorably upon such actions. Can any of our resident experts in all things Deutsch please offer some insight? Do not tell me to take this to Jow Forums.

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Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhoudt_massacre
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Paradis_massacre
twitter.com/AnonBabble

The Waffen-SS wasn't looked at very favourably at first by the political leadership too, so they couldn't use Wehrmacht stocks. That's the reason why you see so many of them running around with captured weapons in the early war. This could be somehow counterblanced by their motivation and pretty good training. But during the course of the war, more and more foreigners, conscripts and ""volunteers"" were accpted into the SS, their training quality decreased dramatically.

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In general, SS troops were quite shit, ignoring a few German (Germanic) divisions, and some other notable detachments.
Originally, they received inferior equipment, since Wehrmacht wasn't too keen on handing over top-of-the-line equipment to what they saw as disorganized political fanatics trying to replace them. Later, as Wehrmacht suffered more and more defeats that changed. In late war, yes, SS units had priority in receiving new equipment.
>I have heard gruesome stories of fanatical SS members regularly making suicidal attacks, using wounded men as traps for medical doctors, and executing unarmed civilians without dicrmination.

Most of that is true. They were fanatics, highly indoctrinated. Though a lot of that was done by SS as SS, not necessarily Waffen SS which was the combat arm.

>would look favorably upon such actions

Some didn't, some didn't give a fuck. ''Clean Wehrmacht'' is a myth. They participated in or committed war crimes often.

>regularly making suicidal attacks

Well, not necessarily suicidal, but in Poland and France they didn't fare so well, suffering huge losses for little gain, due to their fanaticism and aggressiveness. They also suffered a lot of casualties in Russia, for the same reason, but they generally fought better there, earning their (a bit undeserved) reputation.

In general, first few divisions were high quality. Rest, not so much.

Just to add, high-quality regular Wehrmacht divisions fought as well as best SS divisions did. SS being some undisputed elite of German military forces is pretty much a myth. Later they became ''elite'' on account of fanaticism and priority in supplies and equipment, as the rest of German military slowly disintegrated.

A lot of the negative perception of the SS (I know other divisions committed atrocities as well but this is the meme-catalyst) was due to the Dirlewanger division which was literally an SS penal division led by a literal sadistic sexual deviant. Also, the SS didn’t have preferred equipment procurement; quite the opposite. Their procurement was completely separate from the Wehrmacht which led them to adopt at the worst substandard equipment, and at best as good if not somewhat eccentric. If you do some reading youll see numerous cases of them using captured soviet weaponry, Czech produced arms, inferior or outmoded German equipment like K98az or various MP18 models. In terms of “eliteness” or combat effectiveness, I’d say they were by and large at least on par with a given Wehrmacht division. I’d even argue their “elite” status derives not necessarily entirely from combat prowess but also political and ideological means. The SS was a largely voluntary organization and many divisions were extremely well equipped and fought not only with extreme bravery and effectiveness, but with decency and gallantry as soldiers.

>tldr
Not consistently cutting-edge masters of the battlefield who would NEVER commit a war crime but also not wholesale rape/genocide factories

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Also this. Especially towards the end of the war, numerous - almost completely decimated - SS divisions would get fresh “volunteers” and restructured into ad-how divisions or Kampfgruppen. It was a shit show.

Late-war there were more and more men being forced into the SS from other units to replenish the ranks.
One notable example is the whole French LVF which became the Charlemagne SS division, which made a name for itself in the battle of Berlin for having knocked a disproportionate number of ruski tanks.

There is a difference between equipemtn procurement early and late into the war, with the SS really getting better equipment, there are tons of documents proving it.
In addition, Dirlewanger and his unit are way overrated, they played an incredibly small role before 1944, and even then, they were not the worst division of the SS in terms of warcrimes, that title goes to the Italian Karstjäger division. There was next to no SS divison who's members were not in some sort of warcrime trial after the war
>fought not only with extreme bravery and effectiveness, but with decency and gallantry as soldiers
Keep living in your diluted Jow Forums fantasies, Mr. HIAG

This thread is disguisting
SS were war criminals every single one of them
Also germans are shit at war but good at killing civilians so they had to made up enemy casualties number to seem good

SS were the special forces of the second world war. Favored higher than the regular army, looked after better, better equipped, better trained.

>SS being some undisputed elite of German military forces is pretty much a myth

But you are wrong.

The Waffen SS was originally a well equipped, well trained, indoctrinated, motivated group. They fought tooth and nail against the Soviets and the Western Allies and casualties were tremendous. As the war dragged on, younger and lower quality recruits were conscripted into the Waffen SS. Many foreigners were drafted into the Waffen SS. These later troops did not come close to matching the fierocity of the earlier troops. By the end of the war, they were just a shadow of the original Waffen SS.

Waffen SS would be comparable to the rangers

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>unironically spewing post-war propaganda
C'mon man. This isn't 50's. Those myths were dispelled decades ago.
Entire German military was implicated in war crimes.
>decency and gallantry
They literally killed British POWs in 1940, well before war became grim and desperate.
>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhoudt_massacre
>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Paradis_massacre

Imagine what they did on Eastern Front, in a far more savage combat.

Yes, please keep berating people like this. I don't understand why we can't have an objective discussion without someone injecting their personal beliefs into their argument.

>fought gallantly
That's some fucking cornball shit.

>Waffen SS would be comparable to the rangers
What? Rangers were/are American light infantry formations.
Waffen SS had all sorts of units. How the fuck would they be comparable to light infantry?

Go home jew

>What? Rangers were/are American light infantry formations.

Idiot that needs to be literally spoon-fed because of your incapable brain. They weren't comparable to today's special forces. I would compare them to US Army Rangers or the Pathfinders of other armies. More capable than typical infantry, but less specialized than special forces.

Got it now, Jamal?

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Because he's retarded and probably underaged

The allies killed POWs and civilians wholesale as well so I don’t see the issue. Why are the Axis war crimes “worse”?

You're both fucking idiots. Jesus Christ I think it's literally impossible to have a discussion on this. Bye.

t. Warthunder Historian with a minor in World of Tanks

They weren't special forces you retarded fuck.
Well, that's not the subject of this thread, but it was Germans who started the war.
And no, Western Allies didn't kill POWs ''wholesale'', and German POWs in USSR had way lower mortality than Soviet POWs in German camps.

That’s what I was getting at. Dirlewanger made itself notorious not through combat effectiveness but through atrocities.

Yeah I’m sure Wherner Von Braun stuffed 10 jewish babies into the Shoah slide that slammed them straight into the masterbaiting death machines you kike rat

Also, how the fuck can you compare light infantry regiment to Waffen SS, which was combat arm of SS?
Waffen SS actually had SF units you dumb retard.
What you said is so nonsensical I'm still in shock, fuck off from this board, go back to Jow Forums, you're simply not fit to discuss things here, don't embarrass yourself.

>They weren't special forces you retarded fuck.

Jesus... you are one fucking imbecile. Re-read both my posts, then ask your mother who has better reading comprehension to explain what i said and meant.

Once again, what a complete and utter imbecile.

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It was the Germans who declared war on France and the UK? You might want to look that up.

>Wherner Von Braun
...was a German rocket scientist, not SS.
He did use slave labor though, but he probably had no choice.
Are you trolling right now?
Because you're too fucking dumb even for the standards of this board.
I actually understood what you tried to say, but that's still so fucking childish and nonsensical that I again suggest you fuck off from this board right now.

Legit, how can you be this fucking stupid? Please explain in your own words what was said in my previous posts.

I'll be waiting, imbecile.

It was the Germans who declared war on Poland which was guaranteed by France and UK.
This happened few months after Germans, in total disregard for their previous promises, occupied Czechoslovakia, despite the fact they surrendered German-populated regions to them.

>The Waffen SS was originally a well equipped
No. Army, being threatened by the very existance of militarised SS excluded them from using army equipment and procurement channels which is why in the beginning of the war they didnt even have tanks and were equipped with all kinds of mishmash previous generation equipment and captured gear like MP-28s and czech made anti-tank rifles. If anything SS equipment situation got better as the war went on.

>Waffen SS actually had SF units you dumb retard.

We consider “special forces” to be units that fight and deploy unconventionally. Navy SEALs and Delta Operators will fight and deploy unconventionally to carry out clandestine missions, usually employing special tactics and equipment to stealthily raid enemy compounds deep in enemy lines and eliminate high profile targets

Waffen SS are not special forces, they are simply consider elite among the SS.

There were Indian and Muslim SS divisions. Take that for what you will.

You said that a combat arm of SS, Waffen SS (that means: infantry, cavalry, armor, mechanized infantry, special forces, security troops, anti-air, anti-tank, artillery...) ''could be compared to Rangers of Pathfinders''.

That's fucking retarded. Waffen SS was literally a fucking army, not a single formation. You retarded fuck.
Now fuck off, I'm not responding to you anymore.
Waffen SS was the combat arm of SS. SS was a wider organization.

Stop please, The Waffen-SS in the early war years was supplied with the best equipment. In the east Waffen-SS units were used as a reserve to be thrown into battle at the decisive moment, when regular Wehrmacht units already had softened the target. Their battlefield performance was excellent and most German Generals were master tacticians. This contributed to their legendary status: always the underdog and always fighting in the battlefield hot spots. Their maneuvering skills were brilliant, but due to a lack of means, could not beat the Russians on the strategic level.

So when the Allies were confronted with the SS units after the Normandy invasion, they encountered a very experienced force, used to fight against superior forces in brutal circumstances in the east. They relied on superior maneuvering instead of superior logistics, often outnumbered and very experienced.

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But you are wrong.

He was a Major in the Waffen SS you underage retard. Stop getting your WW2 knowledge from video games.

I will take that how it should be taken, given historical facts and logic: Germans lacked manpower and tried to get everyone they could.
Allgemeine SS, not Waffen SS.
Holy fuck you're so idiotic.

>given historical facts and logic: Germans lacked manpower and tried to get everyone they could.

Which is true, because all the young kids, niggers, Muslims, and other foreign trash did not have the fighting spirit of the true Germans from the begging of the war.

>And no, Western Allies didn't kill POWs ''wholesale''

The Prisoners of War Temporary Enclosures, or Rheinwiesenlager, were a collection of 19 U.S.-built prisoner of war camps constructed to hold German POWs during the Allied occupation of Germany. At the program’s height, the camps held up to two million prisoners, although the precise number of individuals imprisoned is unknown due to poor record keeping.Due to the sheer size of these camps, the Allies struggled to provide enough supplies for all the prisoners, which resulted in thousands of deaths. Typical estimates put the number of deaths from starvation, exposure and dehydration at up to 10,000. This figure has been heavily debated, however, with some researchers placing the death toll in the hundreds of thousands.Regardless, these deaths would have been classed as a war crime under the 1929 Geneva Convention if it wasn’t for the fact that Eisenhower ordered the prisoners to be classed as Disarmed Enemy Forces, in order to circumvent the treaty.

Laconia incident: US aircraft attacking Germans rescuing the sinking British troopship in the Atlantic Ocean. For example, the pilots of a United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) B-24 Liberator bomber, despite knowing the U-boat's location, intentions, and the presence of British seamen, killed dozens of Laconia's survivors with bombs and strafing attacks, forcing U-156 to cast their remaining survivors into the sea and crash dive to avoid being destroyed.
Unrestricted submarine warfare. Fleet Admiral Nimitz, the wartime commander-in-chief of the U.S. Pacific Fleet, provided unapologetic written testimony on Karl Dönitz's behalf at his trial that the U.S. Navy had waged unrestricted submarine warfare in the Pacific from the very first day the U.S. entered the war.
Canicattì massacre: killing of Italian civilians by Lieutenant Colonel McCaffrey. A confidential inquiry was made, but McCaffrey was never charged with an offense relating to the incident

>Not SS

You're still wrong retard

>And no, Western Allies didn't kill POWs ''wholesale''

Near the French village of Audouville-la-Hubert, 30 German Wehrmacht prisoners (probably German Army soldiers) were killed by U.S. paratroopers.[22]
In the aftermath of the Malmedy massacre, a written order from the HQ of the 328th US Army Infantry Regiment, dated 21 December 1944, stated: No SS troops or paratroopers will be taken prisoner but will be shot on sight.[23] Major-General Raymond Hufft (US Army) gave instructions to his troops not to take prisoners when they crossed the Rhine in 1945. "After the war, when he reflected on the war crimes he authorized, he admitted, 'if the Germans had won, I would have been on trial at Nuremberg instead of them.'"[24] Stephen Ambrose related: "I've interviewed well over 1000 combat veterans. Only one of them said he shot a prisoner ... Perhaps as many as one-third of the veterans ... however, related incidents in which they saw other GIs shooting unarmed German prisoners who had their hands up."[25]
Secret wartime files made public only in 2006 reveal that American GIs committed 400 sexual offenses in Europe, including 126 rapes in England, between 1942 and 1945.[26] A study by Robert J. Lilly estimates that a total of 14,000 civilian women in England, France and Germany were raped by American GIs during World War II.[27][28] It is estimated that there were around 3,500 rapes by American servicemen in France between June 1944 and the end of the war and one historian has claimed that sexual violence against women in liberated France was common.[29]
On April 22, 1945 American soldiers killed several Waffen SS soldiers who had been taken prisoners of war in the German town of Lippach. Members of the same unit are also alleged to have raped 20 women in the town.

>2 million POWs
>10,000 die
That's not ''wholesale slaughter''.
Germans for example killed, worked to death or starved some 3 million Soviet POWs.
I forgot he was a member of SS, true.
But SS was a wider organization, you retarded fuck. Waffen SS was the combat arm of said organization.

Biggest problem with the waffen SS was the fact that they had problems integrating into the Wehrmacht. They were generally overused and overextended and were often combat ineffective when rest and refit might have kept cohesion.

They were more feared as a political entity. In the end, signing up as an SS late in the war against Russia, if captured you were slaughtered on the spot and not sent east like the regular army.

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That's absolutely nothing compared to German crimes, which were systematic and widespread.

SS are like the fucking USMC infantry
Hot headed, up themselves, and very aggressive,

>Wholesale is what I define
>I was wrong but you are still retarded!

Fuck off, kiddo. You clearly get all your WW2 history knowledge from video games and holocaust movies.

I'm sure if the Axis somehow won WW2 we'd be reading about the 6 million Japanese that were shoah'd in the American death camps by Arch Villain FDR.

LOL "fighting spirit". They did well in the beginning cause they were beating up on small weak countries, once they faced serious opposition later in the war they got stomped. There were plenty of colonial troops used by England too and they did well stop making excuses

Holy shit you're on a new level of retardation. It's inspiring

Nice projection you absolute imbecile.

Imagine how fun it would have been to join Dirlewanger Division
>Filled with all criminal bandits, all doing our time
>Slaughtering anyone that crosses our path
>Placing clean 8mm rounds into the heads of dirty polish
>Raping all the pretty girls
>Stealing everything and drinking all the alcohol you can finds
>Slaughtering dirty Jews

Sounds awesome.

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see
> They were generally overused and overextended

This was a big problem for the waffen SS.

Funny you accuse someone else of what you did when you sperged out when being called out for being wrong.

Every major combatant did terrible things to the opposition. It’s war. Fucking cry about it.

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I was wrong about Von Braun not being in SS. You were wrong about everything else, you mouth-breathing cretin. Including being partially wrong about Von Braun, since he wasn't part of Waffen SS, which we are discussing here.

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This, the war was so big and widespread, the Russian and Americans would have committed just as fucked up war crimes.

Also i see no mention in here about the massive wide spread rapes committed by the Russians, to where they raped little kids, to very old grandmas.

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Blubbery sacks of fat masturbate to both so what difference does it make. Cool jackets though.

Only Soviets came close to Nazis, in the scale and severity of their war crimes.
Except no one denies that, like you're ignoring the systematic and widespread criminal behavior of German armed forces.

I’ll let Communism speak for itself

Holy fuck you sound like a highschooler desperately trieing to sound smart

>Except no one denies that
>Only Soviets came close to Nazis,

Then why weren't the Russians charged for war crimes, wheres the Germans were? If the Russians are free to be let off the hook, I'll simply (forget) about German war crimes.

Seems fair to me.

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>babies drink milk. If you want to be strong, drink beer

Communism and fascism were both evil. It's annoying how poltards always try to point out all the Soviet war crimes in order to make it seem like Germans dindu nuffin wrong. We already know that Communism is bad, something else being negative doesn't make fascism any better. It's just blatant intellectual dishonesty at its finest.

I too am a Libertarian

Can confirm.

I have a distant non-blood relation who ended up in the SS during the war. He was from a Ukrainian German-speaking community, he got press ganged into the SS at the age of 14/15 when the SS arrived in their village and rounded up every single military aged male. He then drove trucks for the rest of the war, surrender to Canadians at the end.

> someone else murdered a guy and got away with it, that means that I should be let go for my crimes too
Nice logic. Up your iq moron.

Why is it flawed logic? as you said, Soviets came close to the Nazis, thus the war crimes they committed were wide spread and just as evil and ferocious.

So why has only one side been imprisoned for their actions?

>Commissar looking for intellectual spijon
Nice try, Tovarisch

war crimes are war crimes only if you lose

Do whatever you want, my point was that those war crimes happened and they were systematic.

Because they won you fucking shitlord. Most of their crimes weren’t based on ethnic reasons or committed during wartime so it’s OK

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The soviets should have been punished for what they did, and they weren't. That's unfortunate and communism is obviously a terrible system. But the fact that they got away with it doesn't somehow nullify the reality of what the nazis did. It is very obviously flawed logic to suggest that if someone gets away with a horrible crime that everyone else who's committed that crime should be pardoned

>he soviets should have been punished for what they did, and they weren't.

Well then, i just forgot what crimes Germany committed.

SS were generally more ideologically fanatical and hence had better morale and were considered much more reliable than Wehrmach by the NSDAP.
The Wehrmacht though they are bunch of suicidal amateurs and blocked their arms procurement, so they were armed by foreign weapons (early in the war), but they were still used as WWI Stosstruppen, which is considered elite, again due to high morale.
After operation Valkyrie that involved dozens of high ranking officers, they got priority over the Army in pretty much everything, including command over V2.

They weren't Special forces, that comes from confusion with Skorzeny's 502nd SS Jäger Battalion. Skorzeny's special forces modeled after British SAS and Commandos. They were mix of Fallschirmjagers, SS and people from other branches.
There's also the Brandenburgers who were part of the Abwehr and they were more about infiltration and what's these days called hybrid warfare.

As for the war crimes, SS was considerably worse, they even had units dedicated for killing civilians for fuck sake. But Wehrmach was full of assholes and encouraged warcrimes, especially in the east.
In the 50's USA needed Germany to form Bundeswehr, so they kinda skimmed over the Wehrmach warcrimes and run with lie that SS was evil and Wehrmach dindunuffin, which is nonsense.

>mfw the Dirlewanger Brigade suffered 315% casualties in Warsaw

Also even the so called "elite" SS divisions were a meme, the full strength "Das Reich" Division got BTFO by an American infantry regiment and a battalion of M10 Tank destroyers in France. The one SS unit fighting in the hedgerows were pretty tough though, not sure if it was them being tough or just the absolute shittiness of having to fight in hedgerows

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The SS were literally slaughtering the Americans until late into the war... what the fuck you smoking?

Some divisions fared well, others didn’t. This even varies on unit per battle. It’s safe to say there were plenty of fuck-iOS and plenty of commendable/impressive examples

>muh bad germuns
>bad men

why forget about the US and Chenogne massacre?

Those who do not understand history are doomed to repeat it.

Because they started it

>In the 50's USA needed Germany to form Bundeswehr, so they kinda skimmed over the Wehrmach warcrimes and run with lie that SS was evil and Wehrmach dindunuffin, which is nonsense.
It makes perfect sense. In 1947 our "allies" in the east decided to drop the iron curtain and seize as much territory as possible while doing it. What are you going to do? Keep prosecuting war crimes on the country you're occupying while the Russians are breathing down your neck? By that time the bulk of the trials for the horrendous things had been concluded and the judges that the U.S. sent over were not the best and the JAG officers prosecuting the cases were vindictive jackasses. How long do you punish a nation for what it's done when an enemy pops up right on their border? An enemy you just so happened to finance for much of the war? The war was a mess, the postwar world was an even larger one.

Chenogne - 80 combatants
Trzbinia - 90 Civilians

"eee hitler did nothing wrong xd" go back to pol fucking tard

What are you smoking, the SS were on the Eastern Front the entirety of the war, Americans only fought the Wehr with like a handful of exceptions

Gott In Himmel. Is this the current Germania knowledge state of Jow Forums?

First of all, the SS were part of the Wehrmacht. Every German in military uniform, including the navy, were Wehrmacht. The parts you differ between are the (Waffen)SS and the Heer.

The Heer were the regular army, essentially going back to the Franco-German war of 1870-71. Its core all this time was a Generalkorps, which not only was the leadership but also self training and to a considerable degree self governing; closer to a DOD than an army staff of today. There was more than a little honor in staying away from public politics. A conservative system that none the less was quick to embrace new and better weapons like machineguns and mountain artillery. What it wasn't too fond of was young officers climbing fast, especially if they had political backing. Which is why Rommel never, even at his peak, had full support from the Heer leadership.

Which brings us to the SS. This was a system built upon politics from top to bottom; without the extremely ambitious Himmler they might never have grown further than being Hitlers personal guard company. Each soldier was, at the start, picked to be a poster boy for the New World Order with health, political and racial top scores. At the start this obscure little organization made do with what was left on the shelves after the Heer had taken what they needed. To meet this new demand, the SS themselves started production of uniforms in the concentration camps their sister unit the SS-Totverbanden was running. The SSTV was the complete opposite of the WWS, getting its staff mainly from criminal and military prisons. Of the Waffen SS the most interesting difference from the Heer is that whereas Heer soldiers went through a 6 month boot camo, the regular SS soldier had only a couple of very intense weeks of training - much like the US Marines of the same period.

cont

A war crime is a war crime user (^:

I want whatever you’re smoking, the US didnt face the SS in force until the battle of Anzio in 1944. Credit given where credit is due, even though the allies won the battle of Anzio, it was a complete mauling at the hands of the Wehrmacht and the SS. The most spectacular defeat the Allies suffered at the hands of the SS was Operation Market Garden, they BTFO the Brits at Arnhem and the allies in general during Market Garden. Not so much afterwards tho

cont

And that is why the SS ranks started to swell rapidly. The brief training was low cost in all ways, requiring a smaller staff and getting new men quicker to the battlefield. Foreign troops were faster to raise which was important when the occupation was shaky and the German soldiers were needed elsewhere. The thousands and thousands of kids who were manning the AA batteries could, when they were old and tall enough to be put into proper combat, be retrained very fast.

Also the SS Generalkorps attracted a different kind of leader that the meticolous standards of the Heer did not favor. This was a place for the adventurers, the fanatics, the luck seekers, the career hounds, the connected and the political. The kind of leader who was not overly worried about own losses.

That sounds pretty comfy desu

All war thunder has taught me is that french tanks were absolute dogshit

LOTTA LOYALTY FOR A HIRED PARTISAN

> SS vs. Wehrmacht
The real question is named unit or generic unit. Named divisions and regiments, Wechmacht or SS, had better selection, better training, better equipment and logistics that translated in better prestige and performance. The main exception are the early war Fallschirmjäger divisions.

Anything slapped together would be comparatively worse, and things got even worse as the war progressed and they started cutting corners.

> user believes Fury was a documentary

there was a testimony from a French civilian I read that said "when the germans were here we had to hide the booze, but with the americans we had to hide the women"

So was it a communist Frenchman, an Alsace Frenchman, a Vichy Frenchman or an Algerian Frenchman? Or do you place equal faith in all their testimonies?

The abwehr’s Brandenburger units (commandos who wore civilian clothes to sneak behind enemy lines) were eventually turned into an SS unit at one point is what I think he means^^

I bet the Soviets made that claim as they were sending their own captured soldiers into the gulag for ‘treason’

They got transform in the "Panzergrenadier-Division Brandenburg" late 1944. Sadly nobody know them today, they were pretty active in the middle eastern.

No, the special forces were the Brandenbruger, later swallowed by Skorzeny's SS troops and with that, their shittiness.

you sound asshurt