US BTFO!

>In simulated World War III scenarios, the U.S. continues to lose against Russia and China, two top war planners warned last week. “In our games, when we fight Russia and China, blue gets its ass handed to it" RAND analyst David Ochmanek said Thursday.

archive.fo/wvqnQ

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Other urls found in this thread:

rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR1782-1.html
tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4746647
navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-031.php
cnbc.com/2018/12/20/russia-tests-hypersonic-missile-that-could-be-ready-for-war-by-2022.html
twitter.com/NSFWRedditGif

>The simulated war games showed, the "red" aggressor force often destroys U.S. F-35 Lightning II stealth fighters on the runway, sends several Naval fleets to the depths, destroys US military bases, and through electronic warfare, takes control of critical military communication systems. In short, a gruesome, if simulated, annihilation of some of the most modern of US forces.

>"Whenever we have an exercise and the red force really destroys our command and control, we stop the exercise," Work said without a trace of humor. Beijing calls this “system destruction warfare,” Work said. They aim to “attack the American battle network at all levels, relentlessly, and they practice it all the time.”

Repeat after me.
SIMULATIONS DO NOT MEAN SHIT.
THEY HAVE NEVER MEANT SHIT.
NOT NOW.
NOT IN 2002.
NOT EVER

Wargame red dragon or european assault?

HOLY FUCKING SHIT

>The simulated war games showed, the "red" aggressor force often destroys U.S. F-35 Lightning II stealth fighters on the runway, sends several Naval fleets to the depths, destroys US military bases, and through electronic warfare, takes control of critical military communication systems. In short, a gruesome, if simulated, annihilation of some of the most modern of US forces.

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>retards still dont know how simulations work/are used
>in 2016+3
Jow Forums has the second lowest IQ of any board and the fact that these bait threads continuously are brought up proves it.

So basically to stand a chance of winning, the US has to make the 1st strike?
>inb4 nukes

>he was right all along
i dont know how to feel about this. i guess the MiG-21 really is an ideal aircraft to model after.

It means, put more money on us, if not we gonna lose to that enemy who we know nothing about their capabilities and the enemy who doesn't even have a population or economy stable enough to make war

This is true.

We need to pour more trillions into the military industrial complex lest America get destroyed by the Russian Bear.

Pay your fucking taxes you fucking drones

This is no different than the millennium challenge, sims can't be twisted pretty easily

>tl;dr Americans LARPing as commies trying to break current doctrine so that it can be made better.

>he still doesnt get the point
youre an absolute cretin. youve been here since then and you still dont know how these work? after how many fucking threads this was explained in?

this board is a fucking joke.

Sims absolutely can be easily twisted. The scenerio does NOT stand Chang

>>In simulated World War III scenarios, the U.S. continues to lose against Russia and China,
Well durr...

guise...

>"Things that sail on the surface of the sea are going to have a hard time," Ochmanek said.

>Aircraft carriers, traditional beacons of American military might, are becoming increasingly vulnerable. They may be hard to kill, but they are significantly less difficult to take out of the fight.

>Naval experts estimate that US aircraft carriers now need to operate at least 1,000 nautical miles from the Chinese mainland to keep out of range of China's anti-ship missiles, according to USNI News.

1000 nautical miles away! LOL... and F-35's range is only 1,500 nmi.

What a shit-show.

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This simulation is a joke. Just like Red Flags where F-22 wins, they are also joke.

>aircraft carriers continue their spiral into uselessness
and water is fucking wet.

In a conflict against a near-peer threat, US communications satellites, command-and-control systems, and wireless networks would be crippled.

"The brain and the nervous system that connects all of these pieces is suppressed, if not shattered," Ochmanek said of this scenario. Work said the Chinese call this type of attack "system destruction warfare."

The Chinese would "attack the American battle network at all levels, relentlessly, and they practice it all the time," Work said. "On our side, whenever we have an exercise, when the red force really destroys our command and control, we stop the exercise and say, 'let's restart.'"

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the F-22 would never win in the real world, since its a slow, sluggish piece of shit, so yea.

F-22 is clearly the superior plane
Absolutely no reason for the F-35 to exist
Also why the fuck is the A-10 discontinued?

>F-22 is clearly the superior plane
no its not. it has the same problems as the F-35.

>need mo money fer dem programs

Makes more sense to iron out those existing issues than spending billions on an entirely new platform with the same problems.
But hey, that is corruption for ya.

>Things that sail on the surface of the sea are going to have a hard time
Clearly it is time for submersible aircraft carriers.

even with all the money, you can't defeat hypersonic missiles.

>literal retard

>calling others retarded without explaining
you're an imbecile who's just projecting.

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>In simulated World War III scenarios
>simulated
>BTFO
It's almost like war simulations like these are supposed to show what you're doing wrong so you don't lose in the real world, hmmm...

The fact that we have the intelligence and technology to create simulations like these at all in the first place puts us miles ahead of any chinkshit or vatnik powers.

I like how they never mention how China and Russia are suppose to get their ships over to the US without us knowing. In reality, there's no way they'd strike first, we'd know about it before they got halfway across the ocean.

It's the reason in the early 60's the Soviets figured out it's impossible for them to attack us and vice versa. Our Navy and Air Force is too strong to allow them to land any significant force on the continental US, and we don't have the manpower to successfully invade Russia or China.

A straight up war between us will never happen, only proxy wars in various countries.

Every one knows it is a fixed match just like simulations. F-22 is crap.

the F-22 was a dud from the start. they fell for the stealth meme.

Screw all that noise. War never changes. If you want to win, take the high ground!

Pic related

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>please let us bilk you out of even more money

This. Half the point of sims is to lose, and figure out how to get out of the no win scenarios. Since there's no one who can actually beat us, we have to make believe. That's how shit the rest of you are. We have to play chess against ourselves.

>second lowest IQ

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But the Russian and Chinese will be growing feet out of their heads for the next 3000 years!

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>Pay your fucking taxes you fucking drones

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t. Russian K-2 enthusiast.

yes. you are only beaten out by you-know-who

I like how all the mainstream (non-defense-specific) news outlets reporting on this completely cut out the RAND proposal and just ran the "russia and china are scary" part. Nobody even tries to write coherent articles anymore, just straight clickbait.

Anyway, forget the sim crap, here's what Ochmanek & Wok proposed:
>But, he said, “sure, $24 billion a year for the next five years would be a good expenditure.
>So what does that $24 billion buy?
>To start with, missiles. Lots and lots of missiles.
>MLRS missile launchers, and the Air Force’s JAGM-ER smart bomb,
>while Work touted the Navy’s LRASM ship-killer.
> defensive missiles to shoot down the enemy‘s offensive missiles,
>Maneuver Short-Range Air Defense (MSHORAD) batteries, Stinger missiles
>toughening up our command, control, and communications networks.
>That includes everything from jam-proof datalinks to electronic warfare gear on combat aircraft and warships.
>And he bemoaned reports the US Air Force will retire the B-1 bomber, If the Air Force doesn’t want them, he said, give them to the Navy, and load them with Long-Range Anti-Ship Missiles to sink the Chinese navy.
>also some buzzwords about AI

Yeah, I've been going through the actual report. It actually doesn't make for a terrible read.

>rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR1782-1.html

>what is airborne refueling

All of that can be bought from China

>China has no force projection.
>Russia's economy is in tatters and they can't even afford to maintain a lot of their equipment.

The US is probably weak in the cyber warfare aspect though but how will anyone really know until shit goes down.

the Russian and Chinese strategic objective is to protect their own sphere's of influence, while America's is to have a global sphere of influence

that means that US has to do forced entry, global expeditionary warfare ect, while russia and china only have to be good enough to stop the US from defeating them to 'win'

russia doesn't have to invade america, they simply have to stop america from invading them and a few baltic states and they win.
this is also how they can compete with much smaller military budgets

>constant news about chinks infiltrating amerifat corporate and government networks
>never news about what amerifats are doing in chink networks

The NSA and CIA must be so balls deep in chink infrastructure and government systems they don't even try to defend, just give as good as they get

air tankers are extremely vulnerable to enemy missiles. you can't safely fly them into the AO of a heavily protected space.

>>while Work touted the Navy’s LRASM ship-killer.

whew.

>>And he bemoaned reports the US Air Force will retire the B-1 bomber, If the Air Force doesn’t want them, he said, give them to the Navy, and load them with Long-Range Anti-Ship Missiles to sink the Chinese navy.

Not a terrible idea, albeit the B-1 is a bit slow. And the US has no suitable missiles. Meanwhile russia has decades of experience with long range high speed anti ship missiles.

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>you are only beaten out by you-know-who
Fucking /wg/.

In what magical world are china and russia in a position to project any kind of power, at the United states. And how is china practicing destroying anyone's CC, how do they simulate the US. How the fuck is rand simulating anything as well, with what resources no one is lending them battalions.

Because any homeless tier military has the manpads to remove the a-10, its honestly trash, a relic.

>mach 8
>What is guidance

>mach 8
>What is guidance

Yeah, americans don't really know what guidance is. Maybe that's why the Sparrow never hit anything, why the Patriot never intercepted any SCUD, and why the Phalanx CIWS can't even hit a subsonic chinese copy of a russian 1950 anti ship missile.

>we lost sim now gib moar munney

>oh no the Russian and Chinese captured more territory in the 15 minutes before 800,000,000 people died in nuclear hell fire wrecked the world for 100,000 years

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how long till USAF starts demanding a stealth tanker?
Or do you think they'll try to stuff it into the b-21?

Different targets, different needs.
No point in wasting money on a hypersonic CM if an ordinary one can do the job.
Actually I think the fact that Russia is working hard on hypersonics is an indication that US ABM systems have reached the point where they can be effective in a conflict.
If they were totally useless, hypersonics would be too.

as much shit as the J20 gets, it is a fast, long range, moderately stealthy air craft carrying nothing but air to air missiles. The chinese fail at execution but they understand what they are trying to do and the J20 seems like it is just built for shooting down aerial refuelers over the pacific, among others

The Zircon project was cancelled. Admiral Nakhimov's refit is on indefinite hold and is likely to be cancelled and the ship scrapped.

The Zircon weighed in excess of 7 tonnes, and would have required a strategic bomber to launch. The LRASM can be launched by F-18s with no problem.

These simulations always fail to take into account that it's starving chinese and russian peasants actually building, maintaining, and flying their equipment. They might be good on paper, but they probably weren't built to the design, haven't been maintained to the level of functionality indicated by the design, and are controlled directly by people who can't utilize the theoretical capabilities of the design.

Real simulation: in a war like this, nukes start flying and everybody loses

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>Different targets, different needs.
>No point in wasting money on a hypersonic CM if an ordinary one can do the job.

Yeah because russian and chinese ships have no anti missile defense systems and bolting a bunch of FLIR sensors to detect incoming subsonic "stealth" missiles is entirely impossib ... OH WAIT

>Actually I think the fact that Russia is working hard on hypersonics is an indication that US ABM systems have reached the point where they can be effective in a conflict.
>If they were totally useless, hypersonics would be too.

Russia has always been cautious and been keen to develop actually working and effective counters to whatever they felt threatend by. Both USA and soviet union during cold war overestimated enemy capabilities, sometimes vastly.

The few times Phalanx CIWS or CRAM have been used where entirely unimpressive, and it is very dubious if they are effective.
In short, i think the missiles the soviet union developed in 1970's are still very effective and would overwhelm existing missile defense systems. You have to shoot down every single one of them, while they just need one to make it thru. And they go Mach 3 at high G just a hands width above water.
And yeah. With hypersonic missiles, russia will stay ahead of the curve. If they want anything sunk, all they need to do is launch a Tu-22M and sink it.

>nukes start flying and everybody loses
Stop this. There aren't enough nukes on the planet to cause any kind of extinction or even a tech reversion event.

>The Zircon project was cancelled. Admiral Nakhimov's refit is on indefinite hold and is likely to be cancelled and the ship scrapped.
>The Zircon weighed in excess of 7 tonnes, and would have required a strategic bomber to launch. The LRASM can be launched by F-18s with no problem.

Kek, the level of American COPE

>The Zircon project was cancelled. Admiral Nakhimov's refit is on indefinite hold and is likely to be cancelled and the ship scrapped.

It is deployed already withhin russian forces.

tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4746647

>The Zircon weighed in excess of 7 tonnes, and would have required a strategic bomber to launch.

Russians have been using Tu-22 to launch their anti ship missiles for decades, and the zircon test launches have been done with a Tu-22 already. Where is the problem? Oh right, US doesn't have strategic naval bombers ...

>The LRASM can be launched by F-18s with no problem.

Which is laughably ineffective.

>It is deployed already withhin russian forces.
are you talking about the iskander ducked taped to a mig-31 or something else?

>Yeah because russian and chinese ships have no anti missile defense systems and bolting a bunch of FLIR sensors to detect incoming subsonic "stealth" missiles is entirely impossib ... OH WAIT

the problem with american ASM is that they come over the horizon 50 at a time with high and low altitude jamming support, jamming decoys, HARMS, JSOWS, glide bombers, and JDAMS

soviet ASM are kinematically superior, but arrive a few dozen at a time without support in the best case scenario

>are you talking about the iskander ducked taped to a mig-31 or something else?

We might be thousands of miles apart, yet i can still feel the intense butthurt of yours radiating all the way over.

>the problem with american ASM is that they come over the horizon 50 at a time with high and low altitude jamming support, jamming decoys, HARMS, JSOWS, glide bombers, and JDAMS

>soviet ASM are kinematically superior, but arrive a few dozen at a time without support in the best case scenario

What just happened is that subconciously, your brain figured out you lost the argument. So you started making up bullshit. It is time to stop posting now.

Pure cope. If the US had won, you'd have said the exact opposite.

>the "red" aggressor force often destroys U.S. F-35 Lightning II stealth fighters on the runway
kek
>and through electronic warfare, takes control of critical military communication systems
THEY OPENED THE EMAIL WITH THE BESTIALITY PDF WITH JAVASCIPT ENABLED WE WIN SAYS CHANG AND SER GAY

an american alpha-strike has all the things i mentioned...

a modern russian alpha-strike is get as many creaking crusty tupoleves into the air as you can manage and fire at what you think might be a carrier group but you can never really be sure, and then run away and cross your fingers

IF THIS MEANS CONTINUED MILITARY SUPREMACY OVER BELIGERENT SHITHOLES LIKE RUSSIAN AND CHINA I'M FINE WITH IT

Plus we get new weapons to drool over. So fuck off and die hippy its not 1968 and your narrative is stale

>yet i can still feel the intense butthurt of yours radiating all the way over.

vatnik butthurt has a half life greater than plutonium and unlike alpha beta and gamma radiation can pass through infinite barriers

Clearly, DoD should be investing into Starship and Starlink. Good luck shooting down 10-12,000 smallsats, half of them in MEO, without resorting to massive EMP bursts that would surely invite full nuclear retaliation.

I'm wouldn't be so sure about that.
Getting reliable information out of China is according to my teacher on chinese politics a gigantic pain in the ass due to the remarkable secrecy surrounding very many things and the country being fucking huge. Even as an intelligence agency dealing with the PRC is probably everything but easy.

>an american alpha-strike has all the things i mentioned...

No it doesn't. Nobody builds an anti ship missile with several 100km range, which is stealth ontop of that, to then fly really close with a bunch of planes and then shoot short range missiles and (LOL) glide bombs ontop of that. You're geniunely being retarded.

>a modern russian alpha-strike is get as many creaking crusty tupoleves into the air as you can manage and fire at what you think might be a carrier group but you can never really be sure, and then run away and cross your fingers

>what is spy satellites
>what is Tupolev Tu-142 maritime reconnaissance

And russian anti ship missiles were designed to operate independently. If you have a 7 ton missile, you can cram a lot of gear into them. They automatically re-assign priority targets if a missile is destroyed, can jam themselves, and that was 1970's tech.

Meanwhile american fleet can't defend against a chink copy of a 1950 missile without british assistance

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USN has been toying with the idea of a stealthy UAV tanker, since that's the simplest mission for a jet-powered drone.

>PLEASE GIVE US MORE MONEY
>OUR ENEMY IS REALLY BIG AND SCARY WE SWEAR

OH NO!!! The military industrial complex needs more of your money civilian!! Your saftey will be the priority and not our profit margins, rest assured.

I haven't said this. Only that MAD leaves no clear winner.

yes the USN does intend to use HARM, JSOW, and even glide bombs along side HARPOON in an alpha strike

>spy sats
this is a shrinking capability for russia for one, and for two the math on ocean search with satellites does not add up even if the CBG was in photo-op bullseye formation the entire time

there were several occaasions where the soviets deployed alot more reources than they have now to search for cold war era CBGs, and they simply could never do it
navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-031.php

Isn't the point of such exercises rather to identify potential weaknesses were we could easily get our shit pushed in if we don't properly secure and defend them?
Don't underestimate the chinese, they still have their very fair share of problems in many areas but they have left behind the starving peasant Mao era quite a while ago.

>alpha strike

Man that sounds cool, it will surely DEVASTATE the enemy with the coolness of the name alone.

>there were several occaasions where the soviets deployed alot more reources than they have now to search for cold war >era CBGs, and they simply could never do it
>navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-031.php

Yes yes CBG is invisible ontop of being invincible. BTFO russia! USA #1!

Sigh. russia knows where every single US carrier is, at all times. Rest assured.

oh so now you're going to pretend to be stupid for the rest of the discussion?

>oh so now you're going to pretend to be stupid for the rest of the discussion?

There is no "discussion", just you alone in your false reality bubble.

ill give you one more chance to reply coherently and then im filtering your posts

Not so sure an article supposedly written by Brad Pitt's character in the movie Fight Club is the best source

back when russia had 15 backfire regiments and would launch RORsats just for a short exercise , they couldn't find american carrier groups

now they have 3 (THREE) rusty backfire regiments in various states of disrepair, and a decaying space capability.....

>im filtering your posts

You must protect your false reality bubble. Otherwise it might collapse and you could become suicidal.

>Sigh. russia knows where every single US carrier is, at all times. Rest assured.
Well yeah, so does like, everyone. It's not like they're a stealth asset, they're what we use to swing our dick with overseas.

The US knows where every single Russian carrier is, at all times. Rest assured. Because Russia only has one carrier and it's kind of garbage.

>muh hypersonics
Yeah I'm sure it totally flies at mach 8 at sea level.

what he is pretending is zircon (cancelled) is actually just iskander stuck to a booster, it's a ballistic missile whos terminal speed isn't even hypersonic and can barely do terminal maneuvering

basically a shitty air-launched version of the chinese DONG FONG TWENTY ONE

American military is actually paper eagle and only capable of fighting against vastly inferior 3rd world militias.

Also notice how I say fight and not “win”

>vastly inferior 3rd world militias
Like China

Of course it isn't hypersonic at terminal speeds, because vatniggers love buzzwords and always give the top speed as if it matters.

The same goes for their new buzzword nuclear missile, that's only marginally faster than the Soviet ballistic missiles, and is hypersonic like pretty much every ballistic missiles since the 60s, but they made a huge deal out of it.

Russia is at the image of their leader, a manlet with a complex. Funniest shit I read all week was how butthurt they were about the successful Space-X resupply of the space station. Even their official agencies were being cunts about it.

Whatever helps you cope, mutt

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>Cancelled

I know asking for a reputable source is bad and is looked down here but I have to ask the source.

Because other news say it is still ongoing

cnbc.com/2018/12/20/russia-tests-hypersonic-missile-that-could-be-ready-for-war-by-2022.html

Sad to be an American in the Chinese century

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So do we have a Chinese shill problem here or what? It seems like there's a thread similar to this one every day.