What’s the point of burst fire?

>You need to hold down the trigger for the full duration of the burst
>Burst cam doesn't reset so if you if you stop halfway the next burst only lets out two or three bullets
Fuck burst fire, fuck the M16A2, and fuck video games for misleading me.

Two or one bullets I mean.

WWII combat studies showed that you want volume of fire, the same exact study lead to ACR, G11, duplex ammunition and burst fire

Improving hit probability while requiring less training than true full-auto.

Also, it matters more where you hit someone rather than what you hit them with. Hitting someone in three different places with 5.56 will likely do more damage then hitting them with one 7.62.

these guys hit it right on the head. it lowers cost. it prevents a soldier who is scared from emptying his magazine completely on full auto. and it couples with the fact of muzzle rise.

Duplex ammunition is interesting, but I think the most interesting cartridge to come out of post WWII absurd government requests wast the CETME engineered 7.92x41mm cartridge. The Spanish military demanded a 1000 yard accuratae cartridge with low enough recoil to be effective in full auto fire at that distance. The madlads at CETME actually did it by making a light weight aluminum based bullet that was exceptionally long to better stabilize. People here bitch about us missing out on .280 British, but 7.92 CETME is the most interesting choice from that era for me.

I guess I should say the request seemed absurd from a design standpoint, from a military standpoint they were basically trying to solve a problem that still vexes infantry combat to this day in Afghanistan, namely "I want to kill that guy but he's way over there and volume of fire is the key to killing him but all I have are a rifle platoon with a single SAW that is effective at that range."

Supposed to increase kill likelihood while also keeping the bean-counters by conserving ammo. Basically, an on-paper compromise between semi and full auto. In real life, it was a complete waste of time since a rifleman is almost always just going to be doing rapid semi fire, and the few instances where he'd want more dakka he's going to likely want to do a desperate magdump. Further compounding things, the A2 burst FCG was a particularly bad mechanical implementation of the feature, with the cam making the trigger spongy no matter what mode it was in and also having "memory," as in if you didn't hold the trigger down throughout the 3-shot burst it'll just squirt out 2 or even just 1 round the next time the rifle is fired.

TLDR, burst fire is good on paper but lame in the field, and the A2 burst especially sucks.

>the Spanish make an insane request, presumably as a joke
>the germans actually fucking do it
>mfw

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Wouldn't be the first time.

>What’s the point of
SHALL

More accurate than full auto more dakka than semi auto

for the point man when room clearing

He didn't say you couldn't have anything you Mongoloid, he asked what the purpose of it is.

help with supression, doesn't actually work.

only thing that does is quick trigger pulls, 3MR, and full auto.

>quick trigger pulls
precise accurate shots, cheapest but stupidest way to suppress fire.

>3MR
depending on the type, it is a good compromise to full auto allowing rapid sustained controlled shots. it can also be used for suppressing fire without unnecessarily exhausting the shooter.

>full-auto
very good for two things, suppressing fire and CQB. in CQB you have to shoot a lot quickly in an area, so turning on the fun switch and going full auto fires faster than a human can as you hose the enemy.

do not mistake the CQB full auto for pray and spray, it is still controlled, just very rapid and short.

Full auto is pretty rarely a useful item in a carbine anyway. 98% of the time military folks use their rifles like they were civilian semi-autos.

sending them niggas a volley

Based and histpilled

I'm a combat vet and no one on my team ever fired on auto. It just makes you have an empty mag, fast. On the M60 we were taught to fire in three round burst to keep barrel cool and to not waste ammo. So maybe it is to keep personnel from doing the same, but barrel temp with M4's is not an issue.

Why don't you find out for yourself and let us know?
luth-ar.com/product/tri-burst-kit/
luth-ar.com/product/auto-sear-with-spring/

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Question: if on burst, can you fire one or two bullets, if you release the trigger in time?
My only "experience" with burst is with computer games, and there I couldn't fire less than three bullets at a time. However, on full auto, when careful, I can.
Always thought this was stupid. I'd want a "max 3 min 1" kind of burst.

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problem solvaing

Yes, but as other posters have pointed out, it's a problem. The design of the burst mechanism means that would be an incomplete burst, so if you fired two shots, the next burst would only be one shot.

Different user, does the burst cam still ratchet on semi auto or does it stay reset?

It ratchets on semi auto too. So if you fire two shots semi auto then switch to burst, you're only gonna get one shot out of it

Jesus that is...retardedly bad design work

When would you use full auto on an M4/M16?

more than one round on target

...

Not really? Just charge it again if you want three.

>the Germans can make a special bullet that defies physics
>still can't unfuck the SA80
Damn, it's really that bad for the bongs, huh?

To achieve the optimal combination of volume of fire and accuracy of fire without having to teach the troops how to shoot short controlled bursts like some kinda commie. In practice, the commies turned out to have had the right idea, hence the move away from burst fire.

user don't be a fucking idiot

Wow that's a super duper thing to keep in mind and do in the middle of combat, just remember to let off your semiauto shots in lots of three before switching to burst and if you fail that just rack your CH and waste 1-2 rounds to get a full burst! Great job!

>wider range of hitting said target since it is 3 bullets instead of 1.
Uhh no. Recoil basically completely midigates that. Burst is the worst of both worlds.

How much of a strategic advantage does any kind of automatic provide over semi auto?
Yes, I am asking if you really need it, no I am not asking if you really need it as though the fun switch should be limited or illegal

If I have to do anything between putting the selector switch to the mode I want and firing the trigger, then some pencil neck back in D&D has fucked up majorly.

And this is why the binary trigger is a superior design. You don't have a spongy trigger, and it won't get fucked up by burst cam memory.

We must keep the republicucks from sacrificing binary triggers to the anti-American demoshit cosmopolitans.

When engaging moving targets or attempting to provide suppressive fire its pretty useful. Inside rooms its also very useful to walk the rounds up someone.

So it depends what youre doing with the rifle really. Given the choice id rather have a rifle with it than without it.

>implying we have a choice between burst and binary
Well since we're spouting pointless babble, you could just use FA and not some gimmicky bullshit but okay nice nonseq there.

3 rounds landing center mass within milliseconds

>Duplex
git gud, scrubs

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you can fingerfuck the trigger and get the same effect as full auto

>the forbidden spaghetti

Sounds like a a business opportunity to me...

I wonder how hard it would be to make.

To get me fucked by my drill sergeant.

t. fired on burst in basic training and they made me take apart and reassemble my A2 over 50 times in front of the entire platoon as punishment

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in general, burst fire is always the end result of a conversation like this:
>>what if the troops panic and hold the trigger down, wasting all their ammo?!
>how about we spend hours training them not to do that
>>and waste all that ammo training?!
>yeah, but it actually takes firepower to respond to ambushes and shit
>>how about three rounds? Four shalt thou not shoot...
>fuck do I ever hate bean counters

When they were coming up with the M16A2, the PTB in the Marines wanted to eliminate full-auto completely. The Army (and probably most actual users in the Marines, but nobody asked them) wanted to keep it. So some idiot/hero/genius at Colt cleverly designed a burst mechanism that fit in the existing trigger group, and they accepted this as a compromise. This way, the troops would have some increased firepower available when needed, which is a nice thought, and at least the bean counters could rub their hands over the thought of all those bullets that wouldn't be wasted in the general direction of enemies, which will keep them off our backs.
On one hand, you've gotta hand it to Colt guy as an engineer -- under the constraint of not adding new holes to the receiver (because if it required that level of modification, they would've gone ahead and removed it instead), he did a great job, and under that constraint it would be unreasonable to expect him to have somehow squeezed in a proper resetting burst cam.
On the other hand, he cursed the M16/M4 series with a crappy burst mechanism, and what's worse, a horrible trigger even in semi-auto, and we're just now crawling out from under that legacy. Whereas if he'd just said "nope, a burst mechanism really needs another pin right here", and they'd simply removed full-auto in the M16A2, full-auto would likely have been brought back by now, and/or a better burst mechanism (with extra receiver holes as needed) introduced instead. Instead, we got a shit sandwich that was "good enough" to not get fixed for decades.

>simply removed full-auto in the M16A2
What were they going to do with the auto sear pin hole, plug it like they did with the M14?

To allow people with bad arthritis to double tap more proficiently.

eat it!

Can a real operator who has some real life experience help me out here. I just assume that you can just squeeze the trigger of a burst fire riffle really fast to get basically the same result as full auto for suppressive fire. Then I hear about that m27 the marines have and its just a piston AR that's full auto. is it really different?

I base my entirety of my experience with burst fire on video games where they lock you into those 2nd and 3rd rounds regardless if your still holding down the fire button, that's not how real life works, I know that. Is the issue messing up the rhythm and not getting all three shots, and getting stuck with a partial burst?

Some shoot the next burst full regardless of the previous, like the mp5 and other HKs. But I get the feeling that those were made for police and indoors commando shit where you want to double tap and defiantly avoid holding down the trigger pumping the room full of bullets. not the same combat doctrine that made the M16 and such.

>asking alot for real experience I know.

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You are the reason that they switched from words to single letters to pictures on sectors switches.

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It's for Canadians with an under funded military.

Y'all wanna see some shit?

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Is burst fire considered automatic by ATF standards, or can you own a gun with burst capability?

Pretty easy considering all the European guns with them from the same era work just fine. The AR's attempt dropped the ball hard.

I really don't see why binary triggers aren't considered more for military use. Aside from tards not realizing their gun is still hot and letting go while pointing it at the wrong thing, it sounds like a good way to have both semi and pseudo-auto rates of fire on a single setting. If they really felt like it they could remove the auto option.

Yes, it's considered automatic. Anything that fires more than 1 shot per trigger actuation is considered automatic. Otherwise all the fags buying up bump stocks would also be buying burst fire guns.

To use once in basic and then.be told to never use it again in your entire career because its easy to irreversively jam the gun

>Aside from tards not realizing their gun is still hot and letting go while pointing it at the wrong thing
Yes, I think you've hit on exactly why militaries have no interest in binary triggers.

Keep in mind is the sort of tard the military has to deal with.

ALL this and helps keep a panicky soldier from mag dumping into everything but the target.

>What's the point of burst fire?
To engage targets that are rushing you and are only exposing themselves for 2-4 seconds at a time. Often times requiring quite a lead to hit them. In this short engagement time, it is easier and even more conservative to burst fire per trigger pull rather than to fire semi automatically. Due to the fact that you only have a couple seconds to line up your shot and pull the trigger, often times only allowing you to get one good shot off at the enemy before they disappear. So firing 2-7 rounds gives you a much higher likelihood of hitting your target vs. only firing off one, maybe two rounds in semi-auto. This not only engages enemies quicker and sooner, it also ends up saving bullets in the long run due to you only having to engage an enemy once or twice before you land a hit, rather than multiple times as he rushes or flanks you due to not being able to land a shot.

Now of course this is accomplished through adequate training on the range with a full-auto feature on the weapon. burst-fire mechanisms as a mechanical limiter are fucking retarded.

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