The Italians have an aircraft carrier what holds less than 10 planes.
en.m.wikipedia.org
This one is larger but still is a small Spanish carrier.
en.m.wikipedia.org
What's the point in them when even African nations have larger airforces? How do they hope to win air superiority?
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You can ask the same for the Jap's Izumo and Hyuga class "Helicopter destroyers". Apparently they can refit it to station F-35s on there but they will be able to carry like what? 10 or less of those? Before modifications they can carry like nearly 20 helicopters for ASW purposes.
10 fighter aircraft in an engagement that otherwise just involves ships can be a serious force mulitiplier.
>bruh check this sweet heelflip!
Well I guess you just answered OP's question then!
I mean, he probably wanted something more in depth, but that’s the gist of it.
Aren't most ships designed for lobbing missiles long range? By the time aircrafts can join the fray surely it's all over?
Yea and I'm pretty sure aircrafts got even more range out of that. If missiles was the successor of the surface fleet meta then aircrafts would have been subsided post WW2. So.....airplanes lobbing missiles > ships lobbing missiles, somewhat
They both have after wiki the same hangar capacity of 20-30 but the italian cost 1400million € while the spanish one only 462million €.
What the hell did the spanish different? 462million € seems a good price
Naval missiles, especially out of line of sight, aren’t exactly a certain bet. Especially when you’re not using top of the line missiles. Look up the USS Mason as an example, but TLDR: A Burke has 9 1990’s era Chinese anti ship missiles fired at it, and not a single one hit.
Not the dude you replied to but isn't it strange how times change shit real fast? Like now you got supposedly supersonic missiles that can almost always hits its target DESPITE complex CIWS systems in place. And missiles 2 decades ago performed exactly like you said. But even with these developments, the missiles are still untested.
No one knows yet. I hope we won't find out.
>10 fighter aircraft in an engagement that otherwise just involves ships can be a serious force mulitiplier.
This, in the Falklands the Hermes only had 12 Harriers and the Invincible had 8. It made a huge difference.
tiny power projection, duh
I wonder if Harpoon missiles are equally bad. Specifically Block II missiles and newer.
Spec Ops
You can do a LOT with ten aircraft. It's like you don't even the advantage of having an airbase you can relocate anywhere in the world dude.
Take a look at pocket carriers in the pacific theater, WWII. They were actually very useful.
Pretty much all these nations are within Europe and don't need them. Only decent European carrier is the French one and possibly the British couple.
Carriers have been made obsolete by hypersonic missiles, might as well make several small ones rather than a big one.
Thailand operates HTMS Chakri Naruebet (P/N 911) based on Spanish ESPS Príncipe de Asturias (P/N R11) to protect Thai's illegal fisherman from law enforcement from neighbouring Malaysia and Vietnam. Designed to carry 8 BaE Matador/Harrier and 10 MH-60s. Pretty much useless due very limited sortie which is one day per-month and her only active service is to carry Thai Royal family for cruise. Plus, the Matador/Harrier were never ever launch for this oversized royal yacht for beginning til' retirement in 2006.
Still better than the shitty Maling air force and navy
I don't think you appreciate how astonishingly significant it is to have any capable combat aircraft supporting you at all
we got that british helicopter carrier. i say that it's pretty good for amphibious assault. we don't exactly need overkill nimitz.
Compensating much?
They operate closer to shore in shallower waters than fuckhuge fleet carriers.
10 F/A-18s is pretty good force projection.
I would that by the simple fact of having several aircraft carrying missiles in a carrier, even if that carrier is too small, it gives you a severe advantage in reach to the point where you can just win through atrittion if you don't want to risk your carrier.
/thread/
The spanish one is a lhd. Both the two australian camberra class lhd, and the turkish lhd anadolu are based in it (well, they are basically the same ship).
It can carry 25 airplanes: either 25 av8b/f35, or 10 airplanes and 15 helos, or 25 helicopters.
The principe de asturias, the first aircraft carrier build in spain, was based in us designs of the cold war, that thought it was a good idea to have pocket carriers to fight russian subs. As a helicopter carrier, they can carry as many helicopters as a european fleet, so thats a great issue in asub warfare. Spain needs it to support the canary islands, support the spanish "infanteria de marina" (a whole brigade) and their two cities in africa. There were plans to build another one. For spain and italy, they allow air operations in africa (specially in subsaharian africa). And for japan, spain and italy, they are a great asset in international ops, either in suport of nato or an european op (and whatever is called the pacific alliance)
The main issue, at least for spain, is that the f35 will be a lot expensive than the current av8b harrier (the spanish ones carry the same radar than our f18). I dont know what the italians will do, and obviously japan will buy the f35
The supersonic missiles that can allegedly hit with near certainty have yet to be proven in combat. The claims made by the missile designers seem to be rooted in reality, but it’s hard to say anything with any certainty until we actually see them being used in warfare, if we ever do. I suspect many defensive technologies are advancing in concert with these systems, but they tend to garner much less public attention. For instance, in the USS Mason incident, the Mason employed a hovering decoy system that had almost zero public attention beforehand.
Continues...
No idea why the cavour was more expensive, its a pure cv, and its more armed. I used to think that it was bigger, too. Anyway its listed as carrying only 8 av8b harriers because italy just bought 8 or 9. Spain bought 14 in the 80s, now i think it has 12 or 13 ( i know for sure it lost one in one accident). My point is that the cavour can carry a lot more than 8 airplanes, and as the italians are in the f35 project, i guess that it will be f35 for their navy?
>The SCSs were smaller than most fleet aircraft carriers, and the concept was seized upon by nations wanting inexpensive aircraft carriers.
en.wikipedia.org
The smallest operational aircraft carrier, based on the USN “Sea Control Ship” escort carrier design.
Capable of carrying 10 Harrier jets (or I guess 10 F-35B's?) + ASW helicopters.
So your buddy has 10 M240 laying around in his backyard.
But he is a richfag who loves to go on expensive safaris.
You are a poorfag.
Do you
a) buy a small pistol for self-defence
b) bankrupt yourself with a big iron for a dick-measuring contest
c) stay unarmed
Itanon here. Italy operates with 2 small aircraft carrier (Garibaldi and Cavour), Garibaldi is going to be replaced by LHD Trieste (35k ton) in the early 20's.
Italy has used a lot its naval aircrafts in these decades( Yugoslavia, Libia)
You imagine aircraft carriers to be the main force that cripples the military of a country, but those small aircraft carriers are made to protect the fleet and to hit targets, sometimes even important ones, when the hotter part of of the conflict has already been fought.
What's your take on replacing it with a larger LHD? I guess it'll make invading Libya easier.
>>but the italian cost 1400million € while the spanish one only 462million €.
What the hell did the spanish different? 462million € seems a good price
Construction, standards, components, sensors and armaments.
Cavour has 3 76mm canons that uses dart guided ammunition as CWS, vls with aster 15 and and an entire set of radars and sensors that makes it a harder target and the center of the fleet.
Juan Carlos is way cheaper.
>>invading Libya
Italy is a vassel state of USA. We don't move an inch without US approval, which is a good thing even if the American new left worries me a lot (they are just bunch of psychoes, and can't be trusted).
The LHD is fine, I would have reserved more space for the hangar so that we could have 12 F35 and 12Helicopters.
The thing that pisses me off is that half of the F35B will be owned by the airforce and the other half by the navy. They keep breaking each other balls for reason and create mayem.
To be honest I would have happier if Italy were somehow able to build on licence a US LHA, like the ones that are currently being used by marines.
We would have saved money and increased the economic cooperation with papabear.
>A Burke has 9 1990’s era Chinese anti ship missiles fired at it, and not a single one hit.
That's dishonest phrasing, you are making it sound like Mason had to deal with 9 in a single engagement, when the biggest salvo was actually 5
>hovering decoy system that had almost zero public attention beforehand
It has about the same amount of public attention, the incident changed nothing. Jow Forums already knew about nulkas and the general public still doesn't know or care
Japan is not allowed to build any carriers. Hence the stuff they make.
d) do what the Russians do, try to keep relevant while stronkposting over my broken tetanus-ship
where do you think Berlosconi got the money for cocain and 15 year old hookers, user?
>Japan is not allowed to build any carriers. Hence the stuff they make.
You do know that's wrong, right?
They are the only ones that were limiting themselves that way, and recently came to the conclusion that a carrier doesn't have to be a offensive weapon only, which is what their constitution prohibits.
You're getting an LHD/A mixed up with an "Aircraft Carrier".
I you literally look at the Wikipedia links you posted yourself, it literally calls them Amphibious Assault Ships.
>How do they hope to win air superiority?
They're not CVs, they have a wider role.
They are helicopter destroyers if you look at JMSDFs doctrine. Izumos have been confirmed to go through a maintenance availability so that they can launch 10-16 F-35Bs. Izumos are now classified as "Multi Purpose Operation Destroyers". Hyugas are still going to be almost solely focused on ASW operations, since the JMSDF has historically fulfilled that role.
Mostly this
In all but name yes, but the JS Izumo and Kaga are being retrofitted to handle F-35Bs, since Japan has confirmed that they are procuring 48 of them.
All good points pastaman
> "Multi Purpose Operation Destroyers"
Ha
Wish they'd try out a Multi-Purpose Operation Submarine.. You know, a modern I-400.
>you literally look at the Wikipedia links you posted yourself, it literally calls them Amphibious Assault Ships.
It calls the Italian one a carrier.
but in what situation will italy or spain or japan be operating in a place that they can't have planes from the mainland supporting them?
it's not like italy is going to be invading vietnam or something or spain is gonna reconquer south america or japan is gonna bomb pearl harbor again
>It can operate
>can
Based.
In any nato operation against russia. In any operation in north africa, or along the mediterranean sea. The same way lybia became unstable, it can happen to egypt, tunez, alger or morroco. Canary islands are 1500 km from the rest of spain. Any open war against northern african countries (argelia has a very potent army, both morroco and argelia are in a weapons race).
As i have said before, at 2 helos per frigatte, one of these light cv can carry as many asub helos as a standard european fleet. Or helos with aew radar, or planes with missiles. Basically you add 500-600 km (1000 with a f35) of reach to your standard antiship missiles if launching them from an airplane. You can search for enemy helos and shoot down them. Whatever an airplane can do, you can do from the middle of the sea.
Oh, and japan has china close to them. I hope i dont need to explain the utility of a cv... China should spent resources to locate, track and attackt them
The Americans come in and blow up all the aircraft on the runway before hand and Spain and Italy come in to drop some token bombs on easy targets.