At what point did Soviet leadership stop being generaly retarded in ww2? What was the turning point? Battle of Moscow?

Attached: tsw001_2.jpg (400x226, 29K)

When people like Zhukov got enough balls/rep to tell Stalin to stop being retarded. That and Stalingrad at the very least made him rethink his methods, especially after the complete disaster that was the Winter War.

you're generaly retarded

>At what point did Soviet leadership stop being generaly retarded in ww2?
July 28 1942

Attached: Order_No_227[1].jpg (820x1125, 324K)

Soviet high command was filled with Stalin's bootlickers, but the bravery and borderline animal fighting of the soldiers won the war. Read the diary of Germans at Stalingrad, they thought they were fighting devils not men.

Attached: 1553138959395.png (1680x1050, 145K)

A few officers showed promise from even before the war by realizing war was coming with Germany. Something Stalin didn't want to believe and which he forced onto Stavka, making the entire military generally unprepared.
Stalingrad was when the Red Army as a whole (under Stalin's leadership) finally showed skill instead of just buying time/sacrificing lives. While stopping the Germans outside of Moscow in 1941 was a success, it wasn't turned into a victory that regained what was lost. At Stalingrad, the Soviets recognized where to build their defenses, how to counter the Axis forces, and used an encirclement to not only defend the city but punish the Germans for trying to take it. A lot of this had to do with the frenzy of moving Soviet industry further East in 1941 and then in 1942 and onward was running more efficiently.

FPBP.

This. Tiny Germany vs four world spanning empires with unlimited manpower, and tiny Germany almost won with allies like Italy and resource starved Japan.
>while in 1944 it was most feared land army in the world.
Meanwhile, in the real world:
>"We promised the Europeans freedom. It would be worse than dishonorable not to see that they have it. This might mean war with the Russians, but what of it? They have no air force, and their gasoline and ammunition supplies are low. I've seen their miserable supply trains; mostly wagons drawn by beaten up old horses or oxen. I'll say this; the Third Army alone and with damned few casualties, could lick what is left of the Russians in six weeks." - General Patton

Is that quote from a book? Can I have salsa? Looks good

They killed him to save the Soviet Union.

“Fixed fortifications are monuments to man’s stupidity”
Another quote from the man whose whole army was delayed by the fortifications of Metz, so yeah im not gonna judge the russian readyness by a quote from Patton

>Tiny Germany

With its staggering coal reserves, sizable industry, and one of the largest populations in Europe

I think Patton's assessment may be wrong. The Red Army was motorized much more than the German Army. The Soviets supply lines were intact. War between the Western Allies and the Soviets would not have been a quick affair even in 1946.

The Soviet Union was suffering a massive famine in '46

Pretty much this.
Stalin trusted the generals more and Hitler trusted the generals less.
Hitler's refusal to allow retreats and consolidation was retarded, especially when the Russians did it to strategic success for thousands of miles.

>lot of this had to do with the frenzy of moving Soviet industry further East in 1941 and then in 1942 and onward was running more efficiently

Soviet leadership counted on going all the way to the Urals if necessary, and still winning.

>The Soviets supply lines were intact.
Now imagine if a strategic bombing effort and lend lease was cut off. Those supply lines critical for deep battle would be gone.

Germans fucked up in stalingrad that's all

I disagree with this entirely.

>Stalin trusted the generals more and Hitler trusted the generals less.
From 1940-1942, during the German invasion, the Russians had many military purges. Most notably, in mid-1941, the soviets arrested many military generals and commanders, which practically incapacitated the Soviet air force. Later in the year, the Soviets had 300 commanders executed during the Battle of Moscow. In early 1942, they went through another purge, killing 46 military leaders, 17 of which were generals.
I mean, Hitler didn't trust his generals, but neither did Stalin. This is why there was a politruk in every unit, company, or division. Hell, the very reason that the Soviet tactics were simply "push until we reach Berlin", was because Stalin trusted his political officers more then his generals.

>Hitler's refusal to allow retreats and consolidation was retarded, especially when the Russians did it to strategic success for thousands of miles.
What do you mean? The Soviets were pushed back to Moscow, they didn't retreat. I mean, retreat wasn't even allowed. Stalin signed Order No. 227, which was known as the "No step back policy". Any person or battalion who tried to retreat would be shot. This order was the reason that the Soviet casualties in WW2 were so high. Terrible tactics with no allowance for retreat means an extremely high death toll.

/thread

All that motorization and supply lines are thanks to the americans don't forget we won the war for Russia

If the Germans ran out of steam, then why were Budapest and Vienna such shitshows?

During WW2 it was coming from the US but during the Cold War the Soviets were producing their own equivalents to trucks & jeeps and other Eastern Bloc nations had their own versions. Striking Soviet industry with bombers to the same extent as Germany's would have been very difficult once jets started showing up.

The Soviets never stop being retarded, hell peak soviet retardation was Chernobyl. The only reason why the Soviet Union survived the Operation Barbarossa of 1941 was because of Zhukov.

This

Attached: 53399054_10156208577322005_6212280678784958464_n.jpg (341x500, 28K)

Attached: fax.jpg (600x315, 14K)

>people actually think Nazi Germany could have taken the entirety of the Soviet Union
Don't confuse Soviet incompetence as proof of German competence

operation Barbarossa getting delayed meant that winter set in just in time to barely keep Germany out of Russia. Everything was going swimmingly but then everything got fucked after that point

Germans would lose regardless

The Soviet famine lasted from 45-48. If they were at war with a country with atom bombs, it would have been quick. And yes the USSR had a massive shortage of motorized vehicles. Look at what they were even using for their Katyushas: American Studebakers. They were all imports.

At best, they would've taken the territory the west of the Ural Mountains and then gotten into a protracted war with the USSR, something they couldn't win. The USSR was already moving key factories over to the east of the Urals in 1941, where they knew the Germans couldn't reach them. With the factories still churning out materiel and still having a ton of raw materials to grab from the territory to the east of the Urals, the USSR would still have a real shot of winning, but it'd be a lot bloodier than what happened. Food would be a bigger problem with European USSR under Nazi control, but they'd think of a way to work around that.

The Nazis seemed to have assumed that the USSR would've quickly broken up if pushed to the east of the Urals, but the Nazis enslaving and killing every non-German civilian they could get their hands on would be a strong rallying cry for the USSR to continue fighting instead of shrugging and giving up like the Nazis seem to have expected.

>they'd think of a way to work around that.
The only solution is to import. If the Japanese had went to war with the USSR earlier, it would have cut off the majority of their lend lease through Vladivostok. That means lots of less boots, food, vehicles, etc. The USSR wouldn't have nearly enough supplies to last. I say they'd break by 44 if that course had been sought.
>The Nazis seemed to have assumed that the USSR would've quickly broken up if pushed to the east of the Urals, but the Nazis enslaving and killing every non-German civilian they could get their hands on would be a strong rallying cry for the USSR to continue fighting instead of shrugging and giving up like the Nazis seem to have expected.
...What? Tens of thousands of Slavs died at Stalingrad alone. Some 80k Cossacks fought for Germany and were given their own SS units. The Baltics also had their own SS units.

>Historian Kirill Alexandrov notes that during the great Patriotic war around 80 thousand Cossacks fought for the Germans. In the beginning of 1942 large regiments and divisions were created. Noteworthy, that according to the ideologists of the third Reich, Cossacks were descendants of the Ostrogoths – the German tribe inhabiting the plains of Eastern Europe. And if so, they were considered “true Aryans”.
slavorum.org/interesting-facts-why-didnt-cossacks-of-don-marry-russian-women/

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XV_SS_Cossack_Cavalry_Corps

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VI_SS_Army_Corps_(Latvian)

The opposite probably would have happened had the symbolic points been taken.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, enjoy that cope wehraboo, Bagration and pretty much all the campaigns afterwards where the Germans got their shit absolutely ruthlessly pushed in were just flukes as well right?

Attached: fall-german-army-1944-belarus-eastern-front-broken-german-tanks.jpg (839x590, 110K)

>Bagration
>486,493 combat personnel,[2] 849,000 total German
>1,670,300 Soviet
>450,000 casualties German
>770,888 casualties Soviet

It's a crime that the Soviets did as poorly as they did.

>some token SS units from mostly minority ethnic groups
>See the Russians were willing to tolerate German occupation!

The Germans were so bad toward the Russians that they rallied under the fucking communist government to fight them back, especially in Rural areas which ironically hated the communists most before the German invasion. If it wasn't for their retarded racial policies and outlook the Nazis could've done far better in Eastern Europe, heck many people saw them as liberators initially.

The Partisan movement that German oppression helped form exponentially, was massive and controlled a huge amount of territory west of the frontlines. Had the Germans stretched themselves further east the Partisan movements size and ability to inflict damage upon the Germans would have increased greatly, they were already over extended as it was.

>Force assaulting heavily entrenched well equipped opponent loses more people
>hurr durr they sucked, muh k/D!

Ok you're retarded, Bagration is almost universally viewed as a great military success by all academics and military historians and showed great use of deception, encirclement and deep penetration by the Soviets contrary to the "they just zerg rushed dude!" meme.

The Germans lost a quarter of their fucking manpower on the Eastern front, army group central was obliterated and army group North and ukaranie were divided from each-other and hundreds of thousands of kilometers of territory was lost in one fell swoop

>80,000 Cossacks
>Tens of thousands of Balts
>Hundreds of thousands of other Slavs
>Token
Alright so I guess you're choosing bias then, that much is clear. I'm on another board posting about something related, apparently in Kallistos Ware's "The Orthodox Church" the Germans opened over a thousand churches in Ukraine in just one year. After this invasion, the Soviets legalize religion. The Soviets gained their religious freedom because they were invaded by literal Nazis. Let that soak in. There's a reason Azov Battalion uses their iconography today. Meanwhile, the Soviets issued Order 227 and had to threaten sentence people with crimes to get them to serve in penal battalions and even volunteer soldiers risked getting shot for tactically retreating.

wrong.

With having a 2:1 advantage, those loss ratios should be reversed. There's no excuse for this kind of failure.
He was objectively right about everything he said, it's obvious you just don't like hearing it.

same poster as :Order 227 was mostly imposed for scared officers who sounded the retreat without even facing the germans.

Stalin's problem was that his whole army was demoralized and scared to fight. Order 227 was mostly a moral order and the common soldier didnt notice it except in propaganda. Blocking detachments were scarce and mostly used on penal batallions. Oh btw every army shot army personnel leaving their posts, not only soviets.

Saying that order 227 was a large contributing factor to soviet loses during the WHOLE of world war two shows a lack of understanding of both the order, what it meant in practice and the eastern front as a whole.

>Oh btw every army shot army personnel leaving their posts, not only soviets.
Very few made blocking detachments and put them right on their own men and banned tactical retreats. Let's investigate the Soviet system more clearly:
>The first penal battalion deployed under the new policy was sent to the Stalingrad Front on August 22, 1942, shortly before German troops reached the Volga river. It consisted of 929 disgraced officers convicted under Order No. 227 who had been demoted to the lowest enlisted rank and assigned to the penal battalion. After three days of assaults against the Germans, only 300 remained alive.
>The total number of people convicted to penal units from September 1942 to May 1945 was 422,700. Very few of them were known to have survived the war.[4]
>Pursuant to Order No. 227, any attempt to retreat without orders, or even a failure to advance was punished by barrier troops ('zagraditel'nye otriady') or "anti-retreat" detachments of the Soviet special organization known as SMERSH (Smert shpionam), Russian for "Death to spies".[1][2] SMERSH units were used to shoot retreating men serving in penal units should the latter commence a retreat after failing either to advance to secure an objective, or to stop a German attack via counter-attack.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shtrafbat

Almost half a million men sentenced to crimes in order to fight for their country, with a gun pointed at their back the entire time. Could you imagine failing to stop a German counter attack, limping back wounded to your fellow soldiers, only to be gunned down by a supposed "ally" for this?

Nearly all them were Minority Ethnic groups, and the Ukrainians who made one of the largest contingents at over 180,000 personal almost universally defected and actively fought with the Soviets against the Nazis when shit hit the fan. there was a reason a large amount of eastern European units were sent to the Western front, they were often unreliable and had dubious motivation or allegiance to the Nazi's with a few notable exceptions. Barley a case in point to Russian acceptance of German occupation.

Heck despite the huge risk and limited if any financial incentive more people volunteered to fight with the Partisans in Russia and Soviet states then fight with the Nazi's.

>With having a 2:1 advantage, those loss ratios should be reversed. There's no excuse for this kind of failure.
Yeah ok you're retarded, enjoy boiling down military campaigns to the K:D and numbers disparity figures you read on wiki

Attached: Nicholas-Cage-Cant-Hold-Back-The-Laughter-Reaction-Gif.gif (177x150, 1.74M)

' Unconditionally remove from their posts and send to the High Command for court martial those army commanders who have allowed unauthorized troop withdrawals from occupied positions, without the order of the Front command.'

This is what the order said. Your sources never backed your claim that order 227 was a reason for high soviet losses or that it was used till the end of the war. Even though it would be dropped officially in 1943 by order 349, Catherine Merridale said the idea of blocking battalions was unofficially dropped in october '42. They sent close to 450 000 to penal battalions that is correct, but not all penal battalions had blocking detachments and they didnt shoot randomly like in a movie like enemy at the gates. Go read a real book about it. Youtube also had a few good vids on order 227.

The order as a whole was a succes, I would even go as far to say that if it wasnt for order 227 the Soviet loses would remain as high as in summer 1941 and they would have possible even lost the war.

Btw Germans uses kettelhunde units in the battle of moscow, executing deserting soldiers and officers who fled the battle. So i dont really get your stick. The germans even had special strafbatiallons going on suicide missions.

Of these batallions some members were even sent to concentration camps. Imagine going all the way to moscow and getting sent to a concentration camp after.

You do know that the only reason the soviets had an industry during the cold war was because as they pushed west they actually plundered those country's factories and shipped them back to Russia.

>Heck despite the huge risk and limited if any financial incentive more people volunteered to fight with the Partisans in Russia and Soviet states then fight with the Nazi's.
That's what we would expect. The fact of hundreds of thousands sided with the Germans is surprising,and puts a pin in the tired old adage about Germans killing anything not specifically born in Germany circa 1910 with perfect ancestry.
>Gets triggered at the end
I'm just saying,those were not splendorous victories the Soviets were initiating.

>Could you imagine failing to stop a German counter attack, limping back wounded to your fellow soldiers, only to be gunned down by a supposed "ally" for this?
During Operation Case Blue the russian retreated a lot not wanting to get encircled. Guess what they were not obliterated by based NKVD machinegunners
Yeah stuhlin did give orders to form blocking detachments from the NKVD to stop panic mongering.
The gommies needed as much men as they can get so why would you think they would just slaughter a division worth of soldier?
Mostly the NKVD shot some soldiers publicly in front of the division to scare them, the goal was to get men back to the fight not to obliterate them,
It was never "oh vasilly they are retreating bring me my machinegun"

And the Germans made a corps size unit from Soviet POW's and formations of elderly people and children to stand in the way of unstoppable Soviet Armour assaults, whats your point?

We get it war is horrible and dictatorships do amoral shit when SHTF

We're hitting sovietboo levels that shouldn't be possible

Can I get sauce on this?

Vlasov army and Volksturm I presume

ok man

>16 years old children
>"The new Volkssturm drew inspiration from the old Prussian Landsturm of 1813–1815, that fought in the liberation wars against Napoleon, mainly as guerrilla forces."
>Britain did the same thing
I'm disappointed and my day is ruined.

>The fact of hundreds of thousands sided with the Germans is surprising
The fact hundreds of thousands of people from ethnic minorities that faced decades of genocide and oppression from the Soviets signed up to fight them given the chance surprises you? Well ok then

The fact that over half a million people that had endured decades of famines, political and religious persecution put their necks on the line and that of their own neighbors and family to fight the Nazi's on the Soviets behalf is the real surprise and a testament to how disastrous Nazi policy and treatment to Eastern Europeans were.

If they had not treated the people like subhumans in Eastern Europe they could have easily built up an army of over 1 million possibly even 2 million Slavs to fight the Soviets instead of the hodge podge and often terribly motivated or reliable group of less then 500,000 eastern Europeans they ended up having to mostly regulate to Partisan hunting and non-frontline duties.

>I'm just saying,those were not splendorous victories the Soviets were initiating.
Yeah well you're entitled to your own views about THE BIGGEST GERMAN MILITARY DEFEAT IN ITS ENTIRE HISTORY, but yeah sure it was a failure. I mean they only got from the Soviet Union to within striking distance of Berlin in one Offensive move, but no biggie they lost more guys right? Must've been a pyrrhic victory at best contrary to all analysis of the operation

Add Hitlerjugend if you wanna go below 16 y/o cuz by the end of the war they actively participated on fighting the invading forces

dont forget the 14-18 year olds of the Hitler youth they used or actual retards used by the volkstrum.

>Britain did the same thing
17 years old was youngest, 16 year olds could be accepted but only with parental consent. Not quite the same thing friendo

Attached: hitlerhandshakelarge.jpg (1200x668, 52K)

It didn't.

>60 year old British home guard armed with pike
This war was on its way to comedy.

Attached: Lt_Gen_Lashner_G_Whistler_(General_Officer_Commanding-in-Chief_of_the_Western_Command)_with_local_Ho (220x168, 12K)

And Germans had penal Sonderabteilungen and later Strafbataillone, what's your point

60 year old posing with pike for propaganda about british resolve vs literal 14,15, 16 year olds and handicapped people being sent to fight and die despite literally 0% chance of changing the inevitable.

what a bizarre comparison

You're desperate and failing to prove anything that looks like a point.

You literally just described what you're doing

Every-time German failure or questionable ethics is pointed out you try and make some desperate claim like
>well they actually did surprisingly good at recruiting eastern European's!
>b-but the Soviets should've done better given the odds!
>The British used child soldiers and old men too! Sending kids on suicide missions against the Russians was a historical concept anyway, its not that bad!

You've been proven wrong with facts every time or at the very least been shown to make false equivalencies, yet you still persist like getting in the last word is paramount to some kind of proof that you were right all along.

Please just stop, its getting embarrassing at this point. im outta here

Was that before or after the help of the West? Was it before or after the russians only had salt to eat and started butchering each other? No matter how Germany sucked, everyone knows that russia sucked 50 times more. The Germans had at least 2 superpowers in their back, but what's russia's excuse?

Hudred/s years of stunted and at points straight out backward absolutist monarchy and two decades of commies

Emperial Russia is the best version of Russia, everything after that is just Jewish bullshit. At least you acknowledge the fact that the Germans were better in every way, even after they lost, Russia could only take its own land back and merely a third of Germany after an agreement with the allies of course.

You should go to /his/ with these sort of questions. Jow Forums is the best board, but really stumbles as soon as you take even half a pace beyond the topic of weapons specifically.
The first post is a typical case of this. Big and biased claims with little words to support them.

Attached: german industry.jpg (871x800, 139K)

Retard

Nigger, Tsarist Russia was fucking atrocious beyond the grandest historical systematic fuckeries
>serfdom up until 19th century
>in reality, even after de iure emancipation the status of basically every settled Russian did not change
>the centralisation and concentration into urban areas was incredibly non-proportional; urban people and people of the countryside enjoyed, or rather did not, diametrally different life perspectives
>whole country was basically unaffected by industrial revolution and relied almost exclusively on foreign import, only a handful of factories were built on Russian soil while everything else stayed in basically medieval times
>all of this shit affected good majority, +80-90% of the population, while the nobility and urbanists lived rich life of Anglo, Italian and especially French high culture
Even if Uncle Nicky had even the best of intentions, they were too fucking late. Not condemning the attrocity that gottverdammt bolshevikhs commited upon the Romanovs
In a nutshell; fuck tsarists and fuck commies. One rigid, obsolete shit system into even more rigid, hellish and cruel bullshit. And this absolutely cuntfaggot grinds-my-gears legacy is still in its lingering effect today
Russian folk produced some of the most forward thinking inventors, innovators and talented artists in all of Europe, but they either usually got screwed by the respective system of their time or could not be supported in their innovation by their system while they could and probably would achieve success and productivity anywhere else in the civilized world
Germany, while also Eastern culture and mindset country, was at least bordering with the West and thus was in close touch with progress of Western civilization for near-immediate application of innovation in grand scale, than just in superficial, or narrowly specific way like in Russia

1991

>USSR had a massive shortage of motorized vehicles. Look at what they were even using for their Katyushas: American Studebakers.
That's a flawed logic. What if they did not build more trucks simply because americans were sending them anyway?

NOT A STEP BACK was that point
The real reason why russians suffered such causalities (mostly civilian) is because Stalin thought that Hitler wasnt utterly retarded to start a war on 2 fronts

>Germans almost won.

hahahaha hahahaha

Germans signed their death warrant the moment they crossed the Soviet border. Barbarossa was built on a fantasy that they could conquer Russia in a matter of months.

Russia went from a medieval tier shithole to a world superpower in 30 years. Really gets the noggin joggin.

C O P E
O
P
E

Germans were good tactically, but were pants on head retarded when it came to strategy. By 1943, the Soviets had developed an effective defensive strategy, something which the Germans never managed. By mid 43, the Soviet leadership was more intelligent than the Germans (as evidenced by the retardation that was Kursk).

Attached: 1557556772722.jpg (958x768, 121K)

Do you wehraboo faggots even realise the fact Red Army and Wehrmacht casualties were counted differently? Red Army casualties meant anything from minor wound recovered from in two weeks to death, Wehrmacht only counted grievous injuries to death as a casualty. This doesn't even take into account the fact that Wehrmacht units often exaggerated the number of kills and wounds inflicted that they recorded.

Slavaboo: the post

>By 1943, the Soviets had developed an effective defensive strategy, something which the Germans never managed.
Calling "human wave attacks" a "strategy" is a bit of a stretch.

This
Germany was doomed to fail from the start

The best post so far.

>No matter how Germany sucked, everyone knows that russia sucked 50 times more.
Maybe initially, the Russians became quite formidable by mid-late war which is a fact even acknowledged by the Germans themselves who on the contrary were becoming a husk of their former competence.

>The Germans had at least 2 superpowers in their back, but what's russia's excuse?
>Hurr durr 2 superpowers vs 1 = twice the odds!!
Go back to the wehraboo echo chamber you came from, if you cant acknowledge the Russians achieved any success outside of having the odds overwhelmingly stacked in their favor you obviously have no knowledge of the war on the Eastern front outside of memes. The Russians could barley defeat the Finns before Barbarossa, then in the course of less then 4 years they pushed an alliance of armies dozens of time larger and better equipped all the way from the Ukaraine to Berlin, obviously something changed and no "muh western support" alone can't make up for the level of incompetence in the Soviet army pre-41.

>Emperial Russia is the best version of Russia
>the Germans were better in every way
>Russia could only take its own land back and merely a third of Germany
Thanks for confirming to everyone you're retarded

>Calling "human wave attacks" a "strategy" is a bit of a stretch.
Just stick to playing company of heroes, watching history channel or whatever trash it is that you base your meme tier opinion off.

He is right though, I mean the Germans didn;'t even count vehicle losses unless they were absolute total right offs. Panzers might go through 2 or 3 refits/crews before finally been counted as "knocked out in action".

Attached: 50 Times better!.jpg (963x700, 208K)

>Stop
Stop?

They were already and continued to be retarded thoughout the whole fucking war.

Most of the info about the eastern front was sourced by the germans that ran like hell to surrender to the west. I would have doubted what they had to say about what they are running from, but would take their word to get published if that thing they were running from became an enemy all of the sudden.

based

When they starting getting constant shipments of US supplies

All the did was throw millions of men at the Germans. Not a good strategy unless losing 11 million men is acceptable

That quote.

No wonder central command told him to basically fuck off time and time again. Dude was so out of touch, that exact thinking and underestimation is what delayed Barbarossa and cost the Germans in the end.

I'm the first guy you responded to, and am not , like I think you believe, although he is right.

>Saying that order 227 was a large contributing factor to soviet loses during the WHOLE of world war two shows a lack of understanding of both the order, what it meant in practice and the eastern front as a whole.
I agree that the order wasn't a LARGE contributing factor, but a contributing factor nonetheless. The main factor for the Soviet losses were the aforementioned terrible tactics.
And while, yes, the amount of people directly killed by the order was small, the issue was the amount of people it indirectly killed. This order set a precedent. This precedent was that any form of retreat would not be tolerated. Once this order was dropped, while common soldiers were not really shot for retreats, officers were still arrested and/or killed for tactical retreats. This made the officers of the Soviet army push their unit in often unwinnable or unreasonable situations (in accordance with the terrible Soviet tactics), often not considering any form of retreat as a reasonable option. This resulted in the Soviet death rate skyrocketing.

>Oh btw every army shot army personnel leaving their posts, not only soviets.
Yes, armies do shoot soldiers for desertion. However, this was not desertion, this was retreat. Excluding the Soviets, you would be hard pressed to find an army that kills it's soldiers/officers for a tactical retreat.

>The order as a whole was a succes, I would even go as far to say that if it wasnt for order 227 the Soviet loses would remain as high as in summer 1941 and they would have possible even lost the war.
For Christ's sake, do you honestly believe that assigning potential manpower and resources to shoot their own countrymen is a great allocation of resources? If the Soviets just listened to their fucking generals then the order would have been obsolete and they would have lost significantly less men.

Correction: I'm not , although you think I am.

If they did stop being retarded, they wouldn't have kept being communists.

>deep battle totally isn't human wave, guys!
>we're just throwing wave after wave of humans at the enemy until a hole in their lines form and then flooding that hole with more men!
>totally unique idea copyright 1943 OC do not steal

based, redpilled and best post