Why not make a cartridge like this?

Why not make a cartridge like this?

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale
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more expensive
far weaker case due to the major weak spot where the insulating ring is located (that's also the part of the case which needs to be the strongest)--electronic primers are a far better idea, which is why that's what people use now for the few applications which benefit from it.
electromagnetic extraction is amazingly dumb

Yeah.

If it ain't broke don't fix it

Because if a current travels around that ring it will blow up

Powder doesn't explode it just burns quickly

I've been arguing for years that the next logical step for fire control would be to remove the mechanical fire control group in favor of an extremely simple circuit consisting of a linear solenoid, a switch, and a battery. It would be a game changer.

Go ahead, make your argument as to why this shouldn't be the future and I'll show you why you're stupid.

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what is the point in applying current to the ear ring if its seperate

You're right but as far as I'm aware the ATF says that's a big no no which is why we haven't seen it.

You know I've been thinking that this is just what DIY firearms needs!
You can't call motors and shit "firearm parts"

It's already been tried and it's failed miserably. Remington EtronX

That system offers no advantages, only increased ammo cost and decreased reliabilty.

If it wasn't separate you couldn't apply current to the charge to ignite it electrically.

OP designed an extra-shitty version of the electric primer.

Let me kindly explain why you are stupid. Remington Etronx failed because it used a new cartridge that used an electric spark in place of a primer. There's lots of benefits to this, but it's one thing to ask consumers to adopt an untested concept but another thing to also force consumers into adopting a new cartridge with an uncertain future.

I'm just talking about tossing out the trigger, hammer, and firing pin for a magnetic solenoid and an electronic switch. Nothing too fancy. These parts can be made as robust or as sensitive as you'd ever want.

>No advantages
>Entire trigger group simplified to a literal button
>No hammer, firing pin, related springs
>Just two contacts

On the point of ammo being more expensive, that's only the fault of it not being popular. If electronic primers became the standard, there is no reason electronically primed ammunition should be inherently more expensive.

ATF does not care.
Etronx failed from pricing

Could you illustrate this concept in minecraft?

Could be cool. How does it retain the firing pin?

You have two things here:
Electronic priming, which is already used on high powered guns like the vulcan. It was also developed for civilian guns like the remington etronx, which was just a replacement primer.
Electronic extraction, which is dumb. Conventional extractors are pretty simple, but electromagnets can only attract steel, which would mean you'd have to move the magnet out of the way after activating it.

The same way every other firing pin is retained, with a part of the firing pin that is wider than than the firing pin channel.

Etronx was based on common cartridges like .243 and .22-250 you cum gargling shit swizler. It's overly complicated for a few miliseconds of lock time when two pieces of spring loaded metal and a small piece of contact explosive work so well.

BTW you're a faggot.

>Go ahead, make your argument as to why this shouldn't be the future and I'll show you why you're stupid.

It would be a commercial failure since firearms owners are too conservative to embrace new technology. There are still large portions of gun owners that don't accept polymer as an acceptable material to make a gun out of.

Furthermore, the firearms industry is totally complicit in waxing the sense of nostalgia for past conflicts to drive easy sales with no risk in R&D. A 1911 will always sell because it's been made so emblematic of 20th century conflict and patriotism for America's part in it. Even if you get past the multitude of issues in engineering and manufacture, consumers themselves will go to immense lengths to shit all over it because sentimentality runs so deep.

Electronic fire control is the easiest advancement we could make to small arms- it's a mature technology that's been hammered out on vehicle-mounted weapons since WW2. We just need to reach out and grab it.

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>linear solenoid
not fast enough

There can be any number of ways you can think of. Pic related is a pic where the firing pin is held captive by a spring. Now think of this mechanism being used in place of the following sequence of events:
1. pull the trigger
2. keep pulling until the sear slips off the hammer
3. hammer starts to move forward
4. hammer hits firing pin
5. firing pin accelerates and hits primer

Now you have:
1. two conductive surfaces make physical contact
2. "firing pin" accelerates and hits primer

Fewer moving parts, faster, more accurate, more customizable, completely removes the necessity to keep the fire control group located right behind the chamber in the typical manner.

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Except that you need power 100% of the time or it's a very expensive club.

you're retarded. Etronix and the cartridges they were based on weren't backwards compatible.

>. If electronic primers became the standard, there is no reason electronically primed ammunition should be inherently more expensive.
Of course.
But it's not any cheaper. Or any better in any other way. Therefore what is the motivation for anyone replacing the current system?

If you want to use off the shelf cartridges, the correct way to do it is still have the hammer or striker mechanically loaded with a spring, and then actuate the sear with the solenoid.

Etronix failed because it was a bunch of new expense that offered no benefit.

Your idea is no different.

What's the point of adding a battery which is good for a limited number of shots when existing modern firearms are highly reliable and don't have that disadvantage? You're making the gun worse for no reason.

then you have no real advantage
Trigger grouping are not that expensive

The things I already listed, simplicity on the side of the action.

>Entire trigger group simplified to a literal button
>No hammer, firing pin, related springs
>Just two contacts

Elaborate on why it would a game changer and what advantages it has over a mechanical part that never really has any issues unless horrendously abused.

You forgot the disadvantages:

>electrical contacts need constant maintenance or it can easily malfunction
>dead battery = you're fucked

this tech exists in olympic competition guns. there's good reason it's not used anywhere else: too maintenance intensive, limited number of shots.

Because electronics are less durable, harder to maintain in the field, and have a larger logistical footprint than mechanical systems.

Do you really want to go into battle with a gun that can run out of batteries or have a wire that could be jarred loose and only fixed with a soldering iron?

>Entire trigger group simplified to a literal button
Doesn't matter since trigger groups never have any issues unless it was designed by a retard

>No hammer, firing pin, related springs
Not really an advantage, see above

>Just two contacts
Again no advantage over above

>>Entire trigger group simplified to a literal button
>>No hammer, firing pin, related springs
>>Just two contacts
Contacts are less reliable than the other stuff you just mentioned. And while contacts would be cheaper, extant tech is cheap enough that there's no real point in saving more money. Of course, you're also ADDING the cost of a battery, hardware for charging it, etc.

Sure they were. The only difference was the primer and you could buy the primers to load your own.

Remingotn offered it calibers that were not highly popular with varmint shooters of the time or target shooters. Those were the only two groups that seriously cared about the lock time. They also only offered sporter profile barrels instead of the heavy target barrels

>Firing pins don't break
>Trigger groups don't get dirty
>Having an infinitely adjustable trigger pull is not an advantage
>Changing a complicated mechanical system that wears and is susceptible to dirt and debris into a static sealed system(if you could call it that, it could literally be two wires, a capacitor, a battery, and button) is not an advantage.

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>then you have no real advantage

The advantage is that you can now design the trigger to have perfect geometry, with no parts under any kind of spring load. All of the design work could go into improving trigger feel or adjustability.

Think about what this would mean for bullpups. You could make modular rifles could be reconfigured any which way- from bullpup to conventional layout and back again with the exact same trigger feel. You could even fire guns by remote for long range accuracy- like how benchrest railguns work. Mechanical engineering can now be 100% focused on making the gun fire accurately and reliably without having to link the trigger group to it mechanically.

Programmable rates of fire.. it unlocks so much potential in how you want to fire the gun.

>programmable rates of fire
Hide your dogs.

>exectrically
What did op mean by this?

ALL batteries lose charge.
The other malfunctions you describe are rare.

>>firing pin can fail
And a solenoid can't?

The only space this has merit in IMO is niche competition stuff like Olympic shooting. Outside of that sort of area this creates a point of failure (perceived or otherwise) that is unacceptable. Remember, in the firearms market if your weapon can't run for thousands of rounds without failure or maintenance then your product is branded unreliable. This would face an uphill battle in the current market, civilian or otherwise, and offer very little perceptible benefits vs a simple trigger upgrade.

We already have great triggers.
Limited battery capacity is a huge huge huge drawback.

>>but muh potenial
its all in your head. none of those things are problems which need solving, or tangible advantages. lock time might matter to a competition shooter, but we already know that they don't really give a shit.

I only see electronic firing being useful on bullpups as a way to eliminate the "squish" in triggers due to the transfer bar. In guns where everything is grouped together, there's no real benefit gained that I can think of.

Tell me user, do you think slamming a piece of metal at high speeds into another piece of metal in order to dent it, or touching two pieces of metal together causes more stress to those pieces of metal?

What I'm asking is
How do you keep the firing pin from rattling around and possibly striking the primer if for example the firearm is dropped. Plenty of firearms today have a catch or something else blocking the pin from moving unless the trigger is pulled.

>We already have great triggers.

Yeah except for all the guns that people bitch about having bad triggers. Go make a bullpup thread or ask what the difference is between striker and hammer fired handguns and get memed on.

>huge huge huge drawback.

Bullshit, you're just trying to pump this up for lack of any better criticism. A 9v battery is going to last you multiple thousands of rounds. Is cleaning or maintaining your gun a huge huge huge drawback?

>none of those things are problems which need solving, or tangible advantages.

If you had a longer memory you'd remember people saying literally the exact same shit about no magnification optics.

>m-muh batteries
>gud enuf fer great-grandad, gud enuf fer me!

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>Firing pins don't break
Rarely do.
>Trigger groups don't get dirty
Which can be avoided by proper maintenance and is usually not an issue unless you're a retard about it
>Having an infinitely adjustable trigger pull is not an advantage
youtube.com/watch?v=CdOaspqanJs

Also having a consistent trigger is good.

>Changing a complicated mechanical system that wears and is susceptible to dirt and debris into a static sealed system(if you could call it that, it could literally be two wires, a capacitor, a battery, and button) is not an advantage.
Pic related is not complicated unless you are an absolute brainlet. Pic related does not rely on a battery and shouldn't be in dirt & debris unless you're being so careless that it does. Even then they can operate dirty.

youtube.com/watch?v=YAneTFiz5WU

youtube.com/watch?v=8qP6Q9ZEsEo

Only thing I could see how this would be in someway useful is a hybrid like Digitrigger, which is so far just a rangetoy.

youtube.com/watch?v=TCNgY9mQltk

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Complexity and I don’t want a battery in my gun.

>Is cleaning or maintaining your gun a huge huge huge drawback?
yes, AK 47 does not require maintenance.

I know I've replaced a lot more solenoids in my life than I have firing pins in the firearms that I own.
T. Engineer with 26 years experience.
I've seen solenoid plungers break due to fatigue. I've seen the coils short out due to vibration, or have the conductor inside break entirely without shorting. The connectors at the coil can fail too. I prefer hardwiring with crimp type connectors, or better yet: soldering.

IF you're talking about firing pins breaking your're talking about a very rare failure on a modern firearm. soilenoids failing is far more likely.

or even worse and even more likely:
arcing at the contacts causes either sticking--trigger stuck "on" and won't turn off--or it won't work at all. Those are real-world problems with electric triggers in power tools, relay contacs, etc. If you're switching several amps of current then you will have arcing.

>A 9v battery is going to last you multiple thousands of rounds
Show maths

People argue about anything, user. What has your personal experience with firearms taught you about triggers? I know I love to argue Colt Vs. Smith Vs. Dan Wesson, etc but the fact is that all of them are plenty good enough.

>A 9v battery is going to last you multiple thousands of rounds
Show your work please.

>cleaning or maintaining your gun a huge huge huge drawback?
No, because:
1) you have to do that anyway with your electronic gun
2)a traditional firearm can be maintained in the field, without the need for electrical power of any sort.

Put up or shut up, Nogunz

>9V battery in a high stress area
I wonder what could go wrong.

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thats what an explosion is

>Faraday cage effect
unless the powder is exposed, the electricity wouldn't even reach it

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>T. Engineer with 26 years experience
>thinks soldering is better than mechanical connection

opinions and experience discarded

Lmao that little green dude

explosion =/= deflagration =/= detonation

gunpowder in a bullet =/= C4 or dynamite

>y no work?
Cause physics my good man.

Thats besides the point Etronix was bolt operated

2000-5000+ rds is how long (good) batteries last on paintball guns, according to a couple hits on google. Paintball guns have a bunch of other shit in them too- like the optical sensor that acts as a disconnector, so I don't really see why that would draw skepticism since a solenoid alone doesn't have particularly demanding power requirements. A solenoid-fired firearm would be functionally the same.

>No, because:
>1) you have to do that anyway with your electronic gun
>2)a traditional firearm can be maintained in the field, without the need for electrical power of any sort.

So periodic replacement of batteries is now part of your maintenance regime. That isn't particularly onerous.

>Nogunz

My personal experience, as someone that has more pieces of slavshit than immediate family members, is that trigger quality on guns can vary wildly on the same model of gun, from the same manufacturer, with different years of manufacture. I'm sure it varies from month to month and machinist to machinist. Solenoid operation simplifies mechanical operation of the gun down the the action only, meaning the trigger can be designed around being comfortable to shoot. It would be relatively easy to make a drop-in trigger group for the SKS that vastly improves how the gun feels, for example. Same story for bullpups since it completely removes the need for a mechanical trigger linkage.

Obviously many mechanical triggers work fine, but the fact remains that it's a balancing effort of cost vs. benefit- it would be simpler and easier to design a good trigger if it wasn't firing mechanically because you greatly reduce if not eliminate how imprecise machining on spring-loaded working faces influences the trigger ergonomics.

>2000-5000+ rds is how long (good) batteries last on paintball guns
A paintball gun? Something that functions quite differently from chemical based firearms and with far less energy coming out?

>So periodic replacement of batteries is now part of your maintenance regime. That isn't particularly onerous.
Replacing the electronics themselves will be the issue as they will suffer constant shock from the munitions themselves.

>Obviously many mechanical triggers work fine, but the fact remains that it's a balancing effort of cost vs. benefit- it would be simpler and easier to design a good trigger if it wasn't firing mechanically because you greatly reduce if not eliminate how imprecise machining on spring-loaded working faces influences the trigger ergonomics.

>My personal experience, as someone that has more pieces of slavshit than immediate family members, is that trigger quality on guns can vary wildly on the same model of gun, from the same manufacturer, with different years of manufacture.
So can electronics. Quality control applies regardless of it being mechanical or electrical.

>Solenoid operation simplifies mechanical operation of the gun down the the action only, meaning the trigger can be designed around being comfortable to shoot.
It was already simple to begin with, and for something like an AR a new trigger group can always be dropped in.

>It would be relatively easy to make a drop-in trigger group for the SKS that vastly improves how the gun feels, for example. Same story for bullpups since it completely removes the need for a mechanical trigger linkage.
Or just design mechanical triggers that work fine and without reliance on batteries.

Eg youtube.com/watch?v=lEvRQtWLFKc

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale
Cost benefit for mechanical triggers are superior to electronic triggers currently as they are simpler to create, require no special materials, require no retooling, and already existed for awhile.

Electronics and gun functions don't mix, as much as you want to believe it does. Having to rely on a battery to provide you with fire control is a god awful idea. If it aint broke, don't fix it. It's never taken off because it's fucking retarded. Nobody wants them when mechanical triggers work fine, even your example of bullpups is retarded because Geissele and Timney have proven you can make a good bullpup trigger.

>A paintball gun? Something that functions quite differently from chemical based firearms and with far less energy coming out?

It is actually working in the same way, with an electronic trigger group operating a sear. The amount of energy coming out of the gun has no impact at all on how it works.

>Cost benefit for mechanical triggers are superior to electronic triggers currently as they are simpler to create, require no special materials, require no retooling, and already existed for awhile.

>simpler to create

They are not. They require more complex engineering with far more moving parts and a high level of finishing to make a quality trigger. There is one moving part in a solenoid.

>require no special materials

There are no special materials in a trigger-actuated solenoid.

>require no retooling

They require no retooling because gun owners are content to pay top dollar for guns designed 50-100 years ago.

>already existed for awhile

Solenoid-fired guns have been in widespread use on vehicles since the 1940s.

>If it aint broke, don't fix it.

Just like carburetors and full-power service rifles.

>It's never taken off

heh

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If you can carry 10 mags you can carry a spare 9V battery

Too expensive for small arms since you fire a great quantity of bullet in a short time, would be pretty useful in a vehicule such as an artillery armored carrier or a tank though

It's not so much "just carry an extra battery no big deal" as "pull the trigger in a life or death situation; you're not going to have time to change a battery."

Aimpoints have long battery life, but even then the gun will still fire and function if the battery dies.

1911s are still popular because they're a damn good pistol for any sort of range shooting, from casual trips to the range to serious competitions like USPSA. They're still competitive in the world of CCWs as well thanks to the P938 and Springfield's 911. It isn't "DAE remember WWII???? XD" that is keeping 1911s and guns derived from them alive. Pro shooters would eagerly jump on a pistol that's better for their needs than the 1911 is, with the market following suit afterwards, but nobody has made one.

Let me put it this way; if the Savage was selected as the US military's new pistol instead of the 1911, do you think that every major gun company on earth would be selling one? Hell no.

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FPBP.
Solenoids require all the downsides of electric priming (batteries, contacts etc.) but also introduce a lot of the same problems that electric priming can get rid of. Its still a moving part that can get jammed up.
You can make an electrically primed rifle entirely "solid state" with the exception of actually feeding and extracting.
>It's already been tried and it's failed miserably.
Its also been tried and been massively and globally successful. The M61 vulcan is electrically primed and so are a lot of 20mm weapons to maintain compatibility.
Etronx had other problems that aren't intrinsic to the concept. They picked an COTS battery that was temperature sensitive, it was expensive as fuck as a low production semi-high end rifle with surprisingly little parts commonality with the model 700, And then they fucked up their ammunition production, making the factory rounds very inaccurate, exactly the opposite of what the market for that type of rifle wants. It also failed to capitalize on the true advantages of electric priming. Perfect mechanical reliability. The requirement for backwards compatibility didn't help either.
Contacts just need to be conductive, we use gold and such because it gives nice clean signal in small spaces but we don't need that. You could have a fixed hardened steel firing pin physically scratch the primer case to ensure no oxidation or crap on the contact on firing and then send current through that.
Electric != electronics

>being dumb/esl enough to confuse the Jow Forums boomer meme with actual boomers

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>batteries
>dead batteries
>charging batteries
You could literally build a betavoltaic battery into the receiver of the rifle where it'd be perfectly resistant to anything that wouldn't also disable a rifle, and have it last a generation.
>inb4 only a generation
In combat I'd prefer a rifle that I have to replace the receiver or a part on once every 20 years if its much more resistant to dust, debris, bad primers etc.
>inb4 muh radiation
We've literally used them inside of people