Is the .308 still viable?

what is the point of .308 anymore? sure its bigger and punches a bigger hole but in any engagement against a modern army it will be useless as it wont punch plate body armor. the 5.56 has better odds of punching armor than the .308 so why do we still use it? Its heavier than 5.56 and has more recoil, sure its more effective at longer ranges but then again anything over 300m would be better off shooing with a dedicated hunting round like the 300 winmag. dont get me wrong I love .308 and I love my FAL, but I just don't see the point of the .308

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Neither are penetrating a level IV plate, but the real FN NATO will cause much greater debilitation from bruising/broken ribs.

i look at it like, regardless of what caliber im using, if i think or know you have armor im shooting at other areas.

Better barrier penetration and shit like that.

.308 is significantly more controllable and affordable in semi than a .300wm/.338L (semi .300wms and .338Ls are out of the price range of 95% of shooters anyway) and the ammo is dimensionally smaller allowing more to be carried. This might not be a niche that applies to you, but its one that exists.

One shot kills so you don't have to carry as much ammo

>a thread died for this
in the era of modern warfare, choice of small arms means dick

5.56 is is what they give the low iq squad member who suppress fire
7.62 is what they give the high IQ chad marksman of the squad

>what is the point of .308 anymore?
It's bigger, heavier, longer-reaching shot. And it's everywhere.
It's great for hunting, as it can be used to kill big game.

eabco.net/Accelerator-Type-Sabots-for-30-Caliber-Cartridges-100_p_13645.html
How about a .224 caliber 62 gr solid brass projectile screaming at 3,900 fps?

If I get shot in the plate with both a 5.56 and .308 guess which one is going to internally bruise me a hell of a lot more

This.

if this was true every shot would break your shoulder

Brah.

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Your stupidity causes me physical pain.

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it's pretty normal for the dumbest guy to carry the m240 and theres only a handful of AR10s Ive seen nice enough to be called a marksman rifle here or in person.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=o5f1Fo4r4_I
2:00
Tell us more about his bruising and broken insides. It's hard to tell in the video

This fucking thread.

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what..idk where you are from, unit , mos or branch but the weapons squad soldiers have always been the most chaddest of the platoon.

Guarantee he's bruised the next day. Of course it fucking dissipates the energt, that's what the plates are designed to do. I never claimed it would throw you over backwards, just that your stupidity pained me. 7.62 can penetrate level IV. And it can do it with more mass than 5.56, or do it faster. It is a larger more capable cartridge. Any and all arguments to the contrary are objectively retarded. This thread is bad. And I sincerely don't know why the fuck I'm still here, because this is maddening and the most ridiculous and yet successful troll I've seen here in awhile. Fucking questioning REAL MOTHER FUCKING NATO. IS NOTHING SACRED ANYMORE?

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>7.62 can pen IV
Don’t know about that chief. IV is rated to .30-06 AP. SLAP rounds sure, but conventional AP won’t go through in most cases.

>7.62 can penetrate level IV. And it can do it with more mass than 5.56, or do it faster. It is a larger more capable cartridge. Any and all arguments to the contrary are objectively retarded. This thread is bad
I didnt see any blood in the video either

Larger or more ballistically efficient cartridges such as 6.5cm, .300wm, etc are cool, but they all pretty much have a massive downside - they're all barrel burners. 308 really isn't. So especially in semi-auto long range guns, that additional cost can be a significant consideration. Plus it's not like 308 is horrible at range.

>7.62 can penetrate level IV
yeah maybe if you neck down a .50bmg cartridge to shoot a .308 bullet

>SLAP
Now you're getting it.
>7.62 NATO only comes in a single loading
Learn something new from retards every day, I guess.

Most nerds aren’t going to have weird AP loads unless you’re some .mil spook
SLAP is rare as fuck, same with most AP loads for most calibers. Conventional 7.62 loads, the ones that most people will have, won’t go through IV.

t. SLAP nerd

>It includes advice for developing your own loads for various .30 caliber cartridges plus specific data for 30-30, 30 Herrett, 30 Carbine, 308, 30-06, 300 Win Mag, 300 Weatherby Mag, etc.
>300 Win Mag,
>300 Weatherby Mag,
I'm erect.

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I guess. But it's not like it's super complicated. AP in general is dead simple. As far as I'm concerned, everyone should have AP shit. With as prevalent as body armor is, you really should have at least a mag of it. Plus you can flex on da gubbermint.

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They're fun to fuck with. 30 bucks for like 500 of them, I think. I'm still tweaking and working on loads/barrels. I recommend everyone get a bunch if you reload at all.

>I love my FAL, but I just don't see the point of the .308

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A wasted thread. You absolute fucking tard.

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>I just don't see the point of the .308

people are exactly as easy to kill as they have been for thousands of years and if you cant see how ".308" can be viable despite modern advances in technology thats your problem not ours

>it’s more effective at longer ranges
>why do we use it?

>tiny boolit .224
>jUsT aS gOoD

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Plans to retire an aged rifle like the m14 come and go, but it kept returning to the 21st battlefield for a reason. It was by no means an exception rifle but it was reliable and the 7.62 was effective for mid range. These rifles are half a century old and they simply slap new furniture on them and they re-enter the modern battlefield.

The army picked up the M110 as an alternative but after only a few years they are already exploring its replacement (G28 or M110A1). All are still 7.62x51 so there certainly isnt an issue with lack of confidence in the round itself.

.308 is quite old caliber design, however not outdated. It is kind of an ideal caliber from my point of view. It combines a strong punch with a good range. 5.56 seems to me subjectively "weak" (as well as 5,45/7,62x39) ideal for near distances under 250m... But it's not the cartridge for "Fuck that guy on the other side of the valley"

I like the concept of assault rifle...
Likewise I adore battle rifles, it has the charm of an archaic world and it gives you strength of full-fat caliber. My L1A1 offers me accuracy durign calm and meticulous aiming with support... and fast striking power while in "loud and very violent" mode.

FUDD calibers will never bring you the pleasure which gives you 20+1 of 7,62x51 magdump while yelling:
>Rhodesians Never Die!

My brain is damaged because of a tragic accident during bukake party... So I forgot the picture

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>better long range performance than x51
>splits the difference in terms of short ranger performance between 5.56 and 7.62x51
>.25 CPR plinking ammo
Have you, perhaps, heard of our lor and saviour 6.5x39?

Oh no, a fucking bruise.

did you get brain damage administering the bukkake, or did you get bukkaked on?

Yes

there are other short action calibers that can do everything 308 can do but better. 6-7mm rounds can hit just as hard while being more accurate, while other .30 cals can hit harder and farther. it being common and maybe barrel life are probably the only reasons we are still using it

>People are covered in plates from head to toe with no areas uncovered
>All combatants are armored
>.308 doesn't do mildly well at anti material applications
>.308 isn't already piled up in warstock to the ears
.308 is still effective and efficient on the modern battlefield.

The 7.62x51MM NATO round has many disadvantages compared to the 5.56x45MM NATO round. The biggest issue is that it is less accurate due to the higher recoil. This is why even snipers are moving towards 5.56x45MM NATO. It is a lighter weight and more accurate round that allows for more effective engagement in the battlefield and all over.

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5.56x45MM NATO will penetrate more due to it's higher velocity.

The issue is the 7.62x51MM NATO round is less accurate than the 5.56x45MM NATO. .300 WM and .338 Lapua Magnum are designed for shooting at long range but would not be as accurate as close range making them less effective as well but still good for shooting extended range.

Go away Fudd.

7.62x51MM NATO is OK for hunting but with proper shot placement the 5.56x45MM NATO will be a more beneficial round for ethical kills.

Honestly dude the snipers are just moving to 5.56x45MM NATO.

noone has the money or the time to switch over there entire armed forces to a new ammunition for the Quite honestly Minor benefits they give

>The issue is the 7.62x51MM NATO round is less accurate than the 5.56x45MM NATO. .300 WM and .338 Lapua Magnum are designed for shooting at long range but would not be as accurate as close range making them less effective as well but still good for shooting extended range.
Do you have proof that 308 is less accurate than 5.56? In the post above you said more recoil/less accurate. This is false. The firearm could be sub moa accurate and have higher or lower recoil. Recoil effects follow up shots, not accuracy. Follow up shots can be just as accurate but split times would increase. Do you even fucking shoot guns?

The issue with the 7.62x51MM NATO round is the higher recoil effects the shot before it leaves the barrel. This is a basic of barrel harmoincs. It is one of the major reasons that snipers in the the special forces and police are moving the 5.56x45MM NATO as a sniper weapon.

It's ok as machine gun fodder, but 6.5 grendel and 6.5 Creedmore are better.

I don't know why people bring up 308 in relation to armor - probably the ghost of some ancient fuddlore. It's no better than 5.56 at piercing armor, and much worse at shooting around armor through accuracy or volume.

I appreciate you saying this. No one ever seems to understand this. All the cool new rounds are nice but good luck keeping good groups past 6K rounds. Take something like a DD5 or MR762 with a cold hammer forged chrome lined barrel in .308 and it will stay consistent for 25K or more. .308 only drops 3 feet at 1000 yards and it's easy to account for if you aren't a retard.

this is all wrong

how2make

No they dont. The marksman rifle is a MK12 spr. Shooting 556 as well. the lowest level squad weapon shooting 762 is a 240.

You don't seriously believe this do you? I'm taking the bait here but got damn that's dumb dude. That's next level stupid. Site me one source that backs your claim.

no military in the world even affords to supply their snipers with all AP rounds. Almost all sniper rounds fired are just HPBT

wtf, no the M14 has always been reviled for being an unreliable piece of shit. If you hear people who were there talking about moving from it to the MK12 in the early 2000's one of the things they mention time and again is how more reliable the MK12 is than a m14.

I'll order a few and test with my PTR91.

You really don't know what you are talking about bro. I'd seriously reconsider my life if I were you.

Could I load these in an AK?

>is the .308 still viable?
Ironically it's still a little bit cheaper than its own superior ballistics derivatives (6.5 creedmoor .243 win etc) simply because it has been mass produced so much. The US military only very very recently started fielding 6.5 creedmoor rifles this year in extremely small numbers for SOCOM units.

My AR10 which is a benchgun, is chambered in 308 for this purpose. Plus, the ammo costs compound as 6.5cm will burn out around 2k rounds and 308 at 5k, for match accuracy. So you have to buy the more expensive barrels more often as well.

>6.5 Creedmore
Don't get me wrong, I think both creedmoor rounds are great and 6.5mm outperforms .308 past a few hundred yards, nothing wrong with .308 either, but I would prefer more powerful rounds for long range combat. 6mm and 6.5mm rounds probably have enough to kill unarmored fine but id rather not worry about that. .270, .30-06, short or long action magnums in 7mm or .30cal are all better choices for lethal long range shots
ignore this dude on all of this so much is wrong with everything he said

These guys get it. Smaller recoiling rounds have a higher inherent accuracy due to the nature of how recoil effects the bullet in it's path down the barrel.

If you notice the most precision shooting is done with smaller caliber rounds. 6.5mm and 6mm caliber bullets are more popular among precision shooters than 7.62x51MM NATO rounds due to them having more accuracy.

See above.

>it won't punch plate body armor
what is black tip .308?
>anything over 300m would be better with a dedicated hunting round
on the range maybe, most DMRs on the battlefeild are .308

yes

>great for hunting on the open plains, has reach
>more powerful shot used to "put down" targets
>more effective anti material round while not as expensive per shot as a .50BMG and is man portable.
>provides a round intermediate to a .50 BMG and 5.56 NATO for military application
>optimal for a marksman rifle (not a sniper, basically a point-man) when a .50BMG isn't needed.

these weapons use 7.62Nato (.308) and are not only still viable but the military is keeping them for next generation.

>M1919((updated),MMG)
>M240/MK48 (GMG/LMG)
>M40/M25 (sniper, recon)
>M39 (marksmen, M14/M21)
>M110 (marksmen/sniper, (AR-10))

you also have the FN family that US allies use.

>try to shoot long range with 5.56x45mm
>Rounds blows around in the wind like a tissue because it's 55 grains
t. Brainlet

Wow it's almost like you didn't even read what i posted. I was talking about the accuracy of the round not the range.

You were talking about snipers brainlet, who shoot at long ranges

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I said the 7.62x51MM NATO cartridge has less accuracy than the 5.56x45MM NATO round does. This is true. The effectiveness of a round at long range is a different discussion entirely. If you want me to educate you on why I will do it but I already made my case. If you're going to keep insulting me though without trying to understand what I said you are not worth my time.

>If you notice the most precision shooting is done with smaller caliber rounds. 6.5mm and 6mm caliber bullets are more popular among precision shooters than 7.62x51MM NATO rounds due to them having more accuracy.

They are selected because they have high sectional density and are better able to resist wind effects after they leave the barrel, they were also designed with high case capacity proportional to bullet weight for greater velocity. Caliber size has no significant effect on "recoil effects the bullet in it's path down the barrel." between .308 and smaller calibers.

I'm insulting you because you are fucking stupid. The impact of a single rounds recoil is fucking imperceptible on a bullet In the barrel. 308 will be more accurate at range because it is less susceptible to environmental conditions, which matter a great deal more than single shot recoil. This is why marksmen use calibers like 338 lapua instead of 22lr you smoothbrain. Do you have any knowledge of how ballistics work?

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Amazing bait

Ok so first off you're wrong on two accounts. Marksmen usaully shoot with smaller calibers such as .22lr which is why the olympics are shot with .22lr rifles because it is the most accurate due to it's low recoil. If .338 Lapua Magnum was more accurate you would see it in the olympics but you don't. What I ALREADY said to you is that the recoil will effect the barrel harmonics and throw off the shot. It does this more with higher recoiling rounds. 7.62x51MM NATO is a round that can shoot further than 5.56x45MM NATO in certain situations. But it is also a round that is NOT AS ACCURATE. We are discussing ACCURACY not LONG RANGE. If you are having a hard time understanding maybe stop insulting long enough to read.

The sectional density is good for wind and also the lower recoil makes it more accurate.

Holy shit

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this has to be a troll. Please tell me this is a troll.

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I'm genuinely jealous of the skill level of this bait. The namefagging name really sets it off, I want to punch you in the ear when I read it

>Accuracy at range is not accuracy
OK this is bait
First of all, Olympians shoot 22lr because other calibers are fucking illegal in most of their countries. Thats why they need Hundred thousand dollar rifles with heavy custom made barrels that have had thousands of dollars put into tuning harmonics. They'd shoot more accurate rounds if that shit was available to them.
And to begin with, you don't even understand how barrel harmonics work
Barrels are accurized by tuning them so that the node of the vibrations is as close to the muzzle as possible. The recoil of the round itself has literally no bearing on this and only matters for follow up shots.

I'm going to take you're samefagging here to mean you admit you're wrong, but I don't want to rub it in. If you have other questions you can just ask user, because I like to teach other people about firearms.

who let you have access to the internet?

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I am going to have to you one line at a time because it does not really look like you understand what I have explained it a few times.

>First of all, Olympians shoot 22lr because other calibers are fucking illegal in most of their countries.

That is not true. I have a friend who lives in England and he has a .22 and 5.56x45MM NATO and a .303 British. Many calibers are legal around the world and it is not fair to say just because they don't have the same gun laws as the USA that other calbiers are Illegal. I am not sure where you got this information but it is wrong.

>Thats why they need Hundred thousand dollar rifles with heavy custom made barrels that have had thousands of dollars put into tuning harmonics.

First off so in case you didn't know but the actual target rifles for the Olympics are not that expensive only a few $1000 dollars. This is because they can be verry accurate at a low cost DUE TO THE ACCURACY OF THE .22LR ROUND. If you compare a similar rifle in a higher caliber it costs a lot more for the same accuracy such as an HK PSG-1 or a Accuracy International Arctic Warfare Police (and Magnum even more).

>They'd shoot more accurate rounds if that shit was available to them.
See Above

>And to begin with, you don't even understand how barrel harmonics work

Actually I do and I have explained it several times.

>Barrels are accurized by tuning them so that the node of the vibrations is as close to the muzzle as possible

I don't think you understand what you are saying here. There is a lot that goes into accurizing a rifle which I have done to some of mine when I work on them. If you have specific questions I can help you with that.

>The recoil of the round itself has literally no bearing on this and only matters for follow up shots.

That's actually not true because the vibration of the barrel effects where the bullet goes. If you did not know the bullet is propelled by hot gas which means it does not leave the barrel right away.

Old troll from years ago. Ban must have finally worn off.

Bruise = blood loss. Larger bruises mean a lot of blood loss.

>England is the only foreign nation that competes in the olympics
>Anschutz rifles are a few $1000
>there is more to tuning barrel dynamics than optimizing harmonic amplitude
>recoil affects barrel harmonics because dwell time

I'm not even going to respond to this, I'm just going to let everyone mock you

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You're either a drooling retarded or a troll. In either case, throw out your router and go back to cleaning your varmint rifle

Black Veil Brides are like Justin Beiber or One Direction, they're so irrelevant that its not even fashionable to hate on them anymore, so the B8 in the name doesn't even work now.

So are there any countries that have no calibers besides .22lr legal? I didn't think so. Also if you look yes Anschutz rifles are a few $1000. anschutznorthamerica.com/for-sale.html

You're obviously not listening to what I have to say here but maybe come back with an open mind and you can learn something.

Obvious bait obvious 2/10

What is level 4 plates rated to 3006 ap

Olympians dont shoot bone stock anschutz rifles and in countries where guns are heavily restricted or not legal at all they practice with airguns. The Olympics use 22lr partly because it's recoil impulse is closest to this and partly because it's origins are in a British shooting sport that specifies 22lr be used. In any case, they dont shoot 22lr because it's the most accurate round.

Why are you retards feeding an obvious troll jesus let it go

For the love of everything holy, shut your dick holster up.

they're not really all that much better, since they carry less mass and less kinetic energy. Sure they'll out do .308 at the end of its envelope, but at the end of their own, they still fall shorter.
.308's just gonna be around as long as we have cartridges because it's around in volume, and it'll still fuck someone up better than 5.56 in most of the typical applications. Not to mention that creedmore is still new. THough it does make my eye twitch when someone calls it "flavor of the month" after it's been around this long.

>more effective engagement in the battlefield and all over.
Speaking about Battlefield 3

youtu.be/QPLFp9-zupc
Go to 4:43 in the video to see what .308 does to bare chest.

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Have you ever done Olympic shooting? It is a style of shooting that I shot in when I was a kid so I know a thing or two about it. Aditionally, that low recoil impulse you mentioned is what allows for such a surpreme level of accuracy in these rifles, especially compared to the cost of a rifle designed for accuracy in a larger caliber. A $1000 .22lr is going to be more accurate than a $1000 7.62x51MM NATO. The same at a $5000 rifle. The biggest reason the olympics switched to the .22lr is because it is more accurate. If you can't accept that I don't think you have any interest in learning.

Let me ask you this, given the .22lr has a lower recoil than the 7.62x51MM NATO how could it be less accurate? It can't because the vibration of the barrel is less, so it is more likely to put the shot in the same hole. It's just like if you are holding your gun in an unstable position. The less movement in your arms the better, so if you shoot a gun that's making big circles around the targets when you're holding it you aren't going to hit as well. Why would it be any different with the recoil of the round? Are you trying to say more movement of the gun is going to make it more accurate? That's so illogical if you think about it.

I almost drowned...

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>muh armor
Then keep shooting
also
b a r r i e r
p e n e t r a t i o n

>wtf, no the M14 has always been reviled for being an unreliable piece of shit. If you hear people who were there talking about moving from it to the MK12 in the early 2000's one of the things they mention time and again is how more reliable the MK12 is than a m14.
>ARMY
>Mk12 SPR

Why are you bringing up special forces and their special snowflake SOCOM toys? The replacement for the M14 was the M110 and then the M38 as was already mention above. No one in the army touched a MK12 aside from special forces. The point was the M14 was re-used time and again because it was a good enough rifle and it was the most widely available 7.62 rifle for the Army during the Iraq war. The 7.62 part is what mattered the most, as per the topic of this thread.

On the topic of the MK12, it is already due for replacement by the MK17 LB. The SOCOM spec for the MK12 replacement was very specific that their newest DMR rifle had to be 7.62.