Are submachine guns obsolete?

Are submachine guns obsolete?

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Are you wearing body armor right now?

yes

do you know where you are?

In my office, reading a computer monitor.

You two should meet up.

steamy

Can you buy mp5s? I can never find them for sale anywhere. for some reason I heard you couldn't buy them.

Not completely. In a military setting yes as body armor has advanced far enough for 9mm to not be an issue. However in law enforcement and home defense where the opponent has a good chance of being unarmored it still works while being smaller than an AR

basically. if you want to know if something is obsolescent or not, a good shit test is to ask yourself, if two otherwise completely equal parties met in battle, one side had Carbines and the other SMGs, would the SMG side be at a major disadvantage, pertaining to range and barrier and armor penetration? Obviously yes, so the answer is yes.

Does this mean they cant be fun range toys and collectibles? Of course not (because theres always fucking whining about it whenever these threads get made), but the reality is carbines fill the role better; even in often touted last bastions of the SMG, such as law enforcement.

Find a custom builder to make you one with the necessary parts installed. If not, then look up a brand called "Omega" I heard they're making MP5s out of german parts kits.

I hear that law enforcement likes them for logistics benefits of firing pistol rounds.

Does this mean that tanks would make lots of small arms obsolete?

>people ITT implying any 5,56 from any gun will go through III and IV armor like through paper

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That's a bit unfair, as the comparison is between individual infantry weapons and not whole systems

very cool, thanks user!

Not all armor is level III or IV, old degraded soft level III or IV armor might be pierced by 5.56, and some types of armor degrade after being hit and can be pierced with several shots.

Don’t get an Omega, get a Zenith

t. Omega owner

It’s situational you triple nigger. SMGs are still viable for VIP protection and door kicking.

Can we make this a three-way?

This just in, handguns obselete

Yes, just remember, to impress a chick: Helicopter Dick.

No.

If you are skilled you don't need power over precision. Rounds on Target>Power Per Bullet. A stun in a vest is the same as a kill without one in the breaching environment it is used in. In modern combat you are expected to be killed when the plate breaks so it does not matter if 1 bullet shatters it or 12.

>9mm "shattering plates"
>"shattering plates" at all
>power per bullet
Hello europoor

Pretty much. But I'm keeping an eye on a particular caliber, 7.5FK. 95 gr at 2,000 FPS from a 6" barrel, it's proprietary though. Hopefully FK will release the rights like Bill Alexander did with his 6.5 Grendel. I can see the 7.5FK round being very popular with SBRs.

They will be useful for police units for at least 100 more years since they can use the same ammo as their standard pistols

If body armor is strong enough to stop 9mm, we wouldn't still be using 9mm pistols in our militaries.

Perhaps obsolescent, but still suitable for killing marauding niggers.

no. bye.

I'm borm american and know more about how ballistics work than you. Ironically Europeans are skilled enough to just shoot you in the head without any spectator hits. Apparently for a door knocker grunt in order to be lethal these days is to give him an SBR AR that is usually more likely to jam on full auto, that is if he does not discharge out as a fuckup.

You have to go back.

Even if a round doesn't penetrate a vest, it will still cause extreme pain and most likely bruising. With multiple shots, obviously, the likelyhood of penetration rises and the blunt force can do enough damage to incapacitate someone.

Yes you can buy mp5s, zenith firearms, brethern firearms, PTR, and a few other manufacturers make HK mp5 clones, usually with actual HK tooling.


Ammunition technology has expanded enough so that pistol calibers can penetrate many types of body armor. With this in mind, many SMGs can fulfill a PDW role in military as demonstrated by the B&T sub machine gun contract not too long ago. Also, depending on the PCC, generally they can have less recoil than carbines in a smaller package. This can allow you to get more shots on target quickly in a close range situation if things go bad fast.

So no, SMGs are still extremely viable in this world of easily obtainable body armor.

For security and police use it should be great, but then again that's not the case because everyone wants muh rifle caliber stopping power

with lighter ammunition, smaller magazines, a usually smaller package and subsequently lower firepower, submachine guns still fit a special niche that cant be filled with a carbine or a machine pistol. all things involved, from ergonomics to ease of procurement compared to similar options factor in too, along with cost. but since this is a single sentence slide thread i wont get into it.

>Even if a round doesn't penetrate a vest, it will still cause extreme pain
9mm at a steel/ceramic plate?
Nah...

Just make them in 10mm

Nice quads
Anyways, ceramic doesn't hold up to multiple rounds so a decent rate of fire 9mm at reasonable ranges will absolutely work. Steel will hold up but its not used because military ap will pen plus how much heavier it is. Kinda a trade off where ceramic has an insane ability to stop rounds but is more fragile because of it.

300blk sbrs with like 5.5-8.5" barrels are pretty much better at everything than most submachine guns

why would you think something that stupid?

With 300 memeout being a thing, yes.

The army doesnt seem to think so.

This is the shitiest logic ever. Make your battlefield an urban area and smgs are better. Make your battlefield a big open field and now we start using bolt action rifles again, everything else being “obsolete”. Also, smgs aren’t supposed to be your standard infantry weapon.

Yes. Just like how we showed that spears and bows were obsolete by fielding them against Martinni-Henrys and Maxim guns

There’s a reason why most infantrymen don’t carry a sidearm. I’ll leave why as an exercise for the reader.

>Browsing a weapons forum while at work
You planning something?

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You git. Keep up the dakka until yous hit da soft bits!

Besides size, which is why the us army just bought a bunch of shiny new subs to give to vehicle crews, replacing the m3 grease gun

>Make your battlefield an urban area and smgs are better.
No. Carbines like the M4A1 or Mk.18 are still going to be better for urban environments.

The only SOF unit that I'm aware of that still uses the MP5 as their primary gun is the 707th Special Mission Battalion.

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Dude, not even
this guy, but you're a fucking moron.

Subpar penetration and terminal ballistics aren't ideal for room clearing.

This. If you're going to be shooting people at close-range, you want them to go down as fast as possible. You don't want to have a situation where you shoot a guy and he gets back up after you've already moved onto another target. Of course, this isn't to say that 5.56 is a guaranteed manstopper, it definitely isn't, but it has a much stronger probability of achieving that vs. 9mm.

Economics.

What's up, Dad? You're a bitch. Coors Light and Winston Lights are shit.

This. After all, the bravest of the brave could never match the Maxim gun.

no, they are not.
>360° 3rd bursts you in the head from across the hallway
>tango down, kid

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Its 10:30AM and I'm confident this is the dumbest post I'll read all day on Jow Forums.

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Nobody's popping back up after getting hosed with 1200gr+ of lead. If anything they're more likely to ignore getting ice picked by the one rifle round you put through them before the flash and recoil made dump the rest over their shoulder. But hey at least you don't have to worry about the hostages in the next room anymore.

Not in my heart, OP. They'll never be obsolete to me.

I was mainly referring to 300 meme out and 7.62x39 but even when it comes to 556 there isn't a pistol round able to match its energy on paper much less performance from the same barrel length.

Seconded.

t. Omega Owner

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>t. someone who has never, ever had to use an SBR for anything other than a range toy
It's not 1966 anymore, grandpa. Theres an enormous amount of options for both the 9mm and 5.56 user, and what that user was trying to tell your absolutely retarded ass is that 9/10 times you're going to just be using 5.56 because in this day and age it's more convenient, more versatile, and more powerful.
The SMG has niche applications, of course, but carbines shooting rifle rounds in this day and age basically best them in every category, including recoil control and versatility.

So you'd rather dump 1/3rd to half your mag per target, potentially more assuming you use regular 9mm instead of hotter stuff for smgs, over using a handful of 75gr 556 or subsonic 300blk, both of which would be an easier switch to logistically because there's no need for a new magazine and doesn't completely gimp the user outside of room clearing. The recoil difference is a pretty mute point when you consider that the apc9 is straight blowback.

Actually, there are circumstances where the group with SMGs would have an advantage.

SMGs have less recoil so within their effective range they're more accurate and often have a greater rate of fire. However, this is a matter of terrain.

A P90 has a larger magazine, marginally better rate of fire, and is more accurate within 200 meters when fired fully automatic.

My understanding is that most modern infantrymen carry sidearms.

>SMGs have less recoil so within their effective range they're more accurate and often have a greater rate of fire. However, this is a matter of terrain.
What in the actual fuck are you on about. 5.56 with a good recoil spring legitimately kicks less than 9mm direct blowback.
Having a rate of fire past about 600RPM or so is a detriment to you, rather than a benefit.
I dont disagree with you but holy fuck the entire 2nd half of your post is retard-level uninformed garbage.

They could be the most obsolete guns in the world but that wouldn’t change that my MP5 is by far my favorite gun.

>A P90 has a larger magazine
A larger magazine which contains ammunition which is very anemic compared to the 5.56

>marginally better rate of fire
Cyclic ROF is basically irrelevant, and often a slower cyclic ROF is actually preferred. Call of Duty isn't real-life bro.

>and is more accurate within 200 meters when fired fully automatic.
The vast majority of military shooting is done in semi-auto.

M4's replaced the Grease Gun after Desert Storm
t. vehicle crew

The only reason they're viable is because they're smaller, physically, than a carbine. Although I would rather take a lightened Mk. 18 for both VIP protection and doorkicking. The only instance I would take an SMG is if I have to hide it under a jacket or something, and I would only take something like a TMP or MP7. 9mm doesn't take advantage of longer barrels like 5.56mm does so you might as well make the thing as short as practically possible.

I would rather be in a squad with SMG's in WW1 than bolt actions. "one shot one kill at 500m" is Marine propaganda from Bellaeu Wood that only worked because the Germans ALSO had bolt actions. Automatic fire is a hell of a force multiplier.

Also an M4 variant or Mk. 18 would outperform both SMG's and bolt actions in either of their specialized scenarios.

This. A weapon that you can take into a room but still be able to shoot down to the other end of the street will always be preferable to a weapon specialized in either, especially when you can take that same weapon and engage any target you can actually positively identify with unmagnified optics in an open field anyway. As in, the M4.

>A larger magazine which contains ammunition which is very anemic compared to the 5.56

Doesn't matter, bullets generally have about a 70-80% effectiveness regardless of size.

>Cyclic ROF is basically irrelevant, and often a slower cyclic ROF is actually preferred. Call of Duty isn't real-life bro.

Cycle rate gives you a greater chance to hit a target.

>The vast majority of military shooting is done in semi-auto.
In the open, yes. In urban combat it's more common to use automatic fire.

Again, the question isn't are smgs as versital as sbrs, its are they obsolete and the answer is no; they're still very effective in niche applications.

Planning on going to bed at 7pm, I guess. Didnt sleep for shit last night.

>Cycle rate gives you a greater chance to hit a target.
Ballistics aren't a lottery, especially at close range. There is no "chance" to hit. Either the bullet connects with the target or it doesn't, and that's a matter of individual marksmanship. And again, slower cyclic rates of fire are actually preferred because they waste less ammunition and are easier to control. The ideal cyclic ROF seems to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 600-650 RPM.

>shills for the concussive unoptmized mk.18 which features a 10.3" 556 barrel
300blk is better

Niche applications were carbines are still far more effective. Obsolences is more than just not being used any more, but also being no longer current with technology.

Project SALVO demonstrated the opposite is actually ture and was largely ignored because the of the bean counters, old men and "muh one shot one kill" mentality.

I would agree with you but ammo commonality is a thing. 5.56, especially newer loads like M855A1 and Mk. 318 designed for carbine barrels, is good enough at 200m and in, which is when Mk. 18's are used anyway.

Also my shortboi is an 11.5" purely because I understand 10.3" isn't close to optimal in an AR carbine.

Is there another compact select fire weapon that fires pistol caliber ammunition intended for use in close quarters or indoors which has surpassed the SMG to the point where in any real world situation the newcomer would be chosen ahead of the SMG in essentially every situation? If the answer is "yes" then SMG's could be considered obsolete, if the answer is "no" then they could not be considered obsolete.

If by "ignored by the bean counters" you mean "widely accepted and put into practice" then yes. The 5.56 round is the result of that effort and it is very effective at what it does.

By this logic we should still use the M14

>intended for use in close quarters or indoors which has surpassed the SMG to the point where in any real world situation the newcomer would be chosen ahead of the SMG in essentially every situation

It's called a carbine.

>Also my shortboi is an 11.5" purely because I understand 10.3" isn't close to optimal in an AR carbine.
For whatever reason, people seem to believe that there is a huge jump in ballistic performance between 10.3 and 11.5. I can't disprove that, but it sounds like fuddlore to me.

Are there a majority of real world scenarios in which the carbine has replaced the SMG in a role which the SMG was previously thought to be optimal for?

Without question, yes. MP5 used to be the global standard for SOF and tactical LE units. Now it has been almost entirely supplanted by M4 variants.

There isn't substantially, but there's a much greater amount of dwell time. If I wanted consistent performance out of a 5.56 I'm not going under 16" in the first place. But 5.56 even out of 10.whatever and 11.5" barrels, again especially with modern loads, outperforms 9mm. 5.56 will (partially) fragment at 2500fps, which it will stay at or above for at least 100m, and so long as it fragments it will have substantially better results than 9mm. However it's also still able to touch targets out to 300m easily, much better than 9mm.

Yes judge what is tactically optimal by the common foot soldier, whose entire arsenal is strictly reduced to the most economically efficient point of balance. Perhaps you should look at the parts of the military where exorbitant money is spent to make them as effective as possible when talking about what is and is not obsolete.

Are pistols obsolete?

Not if you play Ghost Recon Wildlands. According to that, it's the weapon of choice for 50% of narcos and corrupt SF.

>SPOTTED ONE WITH SUBMACHINE GUNS

Weight. A pistol and its ammunition, let alone a SMG and its ammunition, is a bitch.

This right here.
They still serve a purpose, mainly in terms of smaller size. You can't always carry a full sized carbine around. Also lack of penetration may be exactly what you need in a crowded area when there's no way to know what's behind the walls. A 556 suddenly doesn't seem like a very bright idea for taking down your terrorists in your city if it's going to travel through 3 walls and hit grandma across the street.

The biggest factor in no longer using 7.62x51 was weight not necessarily the size difference, and 20 round 556 and 9mm mags weight roughly the same.

What about 50rd 5.7mm and 30rd 5.56mm mags?

SALVO went way beyond the adoption of the m16 and 5.56 which itself was not widely accepted or smooth transition even to this day half a century later.

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>muh military still uses 9mm

And they barely use it. Sidearms are barely used. They even thought about doing away with them in the U.S. army at one point.

>Muh 9mm goes through armor, if it didn't we wouldn't use it

Unarmored goat herders are the main enemy of basically every world power at the moment.

>Why would we use 9mm if it wasn't good at killing armored enemies

U.S. military doctrine places volume of fire over pinpoint accuracy. 9mm is what we've had for decades and it's cheap, and you get more rounds in a single pistol than you would with larger pistol calbiers without modifications.

>BUHT MUH 9MM

Police, SWAT, and Feds have all started moving away from 9mm in many, many areas. Why? Because 9mm as a primary weapon is shit. Most police/feds rely on pistols. Many departments in my state have switched to .357sig. Border Patrol experimented with .40 for years. .45 is making a cumbak in small departments up north.

9mm sucks unless you're spraying it out of a submachine gun at close range.

Not speaking from experience but ps90 mags seem like they'd be harder to keep at the ready on a rig than 30 rounders because of how they're shaped

>Sickle mag vs thin box mag

I don't see why. I mean being long and thin means you can stuff them in more places.

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Carrying mags that low is going to make for pretty awkward reloads, and judging off the other rigs for p90 mags I've seen they take up a lot more real estate vs 6 mag pouches.

Partially, but they're 50rd vs 30rd so 3 P90 mags are worth 5 M4 mags.

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dont care
gib mp5 pls

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it's a shame that there isn't a filter for "is ___ obsolete" that auto-bans the OP.