Genuinely curious, I understand most of these room entries have a flashbang tossed into the room before the entry to disorient the people inside momentarily.
But why does a lot of diagrams and videoes I see show the pointman going all the way into the room and only covering one corner of the room while the other half is left up to the 2nd person who takes maybe a second or under a second to even get a full view of his corner?
I hear the 2nd guy should get in quick and that the this whole thing should really take very little time if it's performed by a well trained and experienced team.
But is the pointman suppose to basically be completely exposed if some guy was holed up against the opposite corner, waiting for the entry?
Genuinely curious...
Adam Wood
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Jeremiah Cooper
yes. this is not a >yeah post its just genuinely yes, the point-man goes in first and is exposed, the idea however is that he is not exposed very long.
Thomas Collins
damn, so it really comes down to that flashbang?
Ryan Adams
The flash bang, the entry method and the speed of the entry. That is why training for it is important.
Gabriel Parker
>But is the pointman suppose to basically be completely exposed if some guy was holed up against the opposite corner, waiting for the entry?
And what's the alternative? Hunker down in front of the door where he's expecting you and trap the rest of your guys behind your corpse? Have the first guy try to cover the whole room and either quadruple the amount of time he spends alone or sweep the rest of his team while they're moving into position? No, you get everyone into the room as fast as possible to minimize the time anybody spends in the doorway.
Charles Nguyen
and, excuse me for my retardedness, what if the bad guy is propped up against one of the opposite wall with gun aimed and ready at entry area? Let's say they flash and the guy gets affected just magdumps in that moment? I know it's a lot of "what if's" but surely people doing this and cooking up these tactics have long already thought about this possibility?
Hudson Wright
Get off the X. Fatal Funnel.
I tell my CCW students about the fatal funnel. It works both ways. Use them in your own home and avoid them anywhere else because your not a pro.
Christopher Williams
That's the risk you take storming a room. The defender always has the advantage; all you can do is try to nullify that advantage through shock, speed and violence.
Charles Cooper
>what if the bad guy is propped up against one of the opposite wall with gun aimed and ready at entry area?
But to address this specifically, if you had foreknowledge that the inhabitants were ready for you, you would do everything you could to find or create an alternate entry point for which they are not ready. Dynamic entry, baby.
Ayden Green
so what about that other entry method I saw in an old South African Task force video where 1 and 2 don't enter the room, but both just slide the pie at the door?
I guess you're right in that they'd be sticking at the door for a longer while and most houses won't have walls thick enough to protect against the bad guy just shooting at the door area where everyone is stack up on.
Sebastian Hughes
*slice
Alexander Taylor
I'd have to see the video in question to be sure, but just hearing "South African Task Force" leads me to believe that they're poorly-trained and don't realize that a method like that puts them at MORE risk, not less. There is no place for timidity during an assault. "Shock and awe" is not just a meme, it's what gives you the best chance of staying alive (ahh, ahh) while making them not be alive.
Nathan Walker
Cooper Jenkins
Pointman goes in first and runs the hard wall.
2nd man picks up the shortwall.
3rd man kills anyone dumb enough to be chilling in the center threat area.
This can be done with or without banging the room before entry. Everyone moves at the same time and it's like a well-rehearsed synchronized dance. Pointman has to take the hard wall first because that's the most dangerous part of the room and needs to be addressed first.
Room clearing has evolved a lot from when they were teaching me 'strong walls, strong halls' in during war on terror. Now everyone is teaching the free flowing water method shit NSW uses. It's more fluid than strong walls and halls but the concepts stay the same.
Cameron Cox
Pieing off the door is valid if you have to enter the room by yourself or as a 2 man element, if you have 3 it's much better to enter dynamically all at once because you can cover all the immediate danger areas with 3 people.
speed, surprise, and violence of action is still the king when it comes to room clearing, it can even compensate for less than ideal tactics IF the guys you're killing are poorly trained.
Luis Rogers
Okay, so I'm assuming that you're talking about the hostage rescue bit. That was a tight situation, and the guy who tossed the stun grenade admitted that he fucked up. They lingered in the doorway when the best option would have been to get through it and rush the hostage-taker in close proximity. He froze, more or less. My guess is that his innate survival instinct told him "If I go through, I'm going to die", and that paralyzed him and held up the entire breach. Shit like that happens in those kinds of situations, when "fight" and "flight" are actively at war with each other; adrenaline says "flee", training says "push". His training wasn't enough to beat out the desire to not expose himself to danger for just a few seconds.
Of course, I'm armchair quarterbacking here. They did the best they could in a volatile situation, and it's more than I have ever done. I'm sure that they have learned from it and adapted, and I retract my previous assumption of poor training.
Lucas Robinson
Also you know that diagram is dated because the four man is entering the room when he should be moving past the doorway and holding the hallway.
Luis Scott
cool, thanks for all the information.
Always been very interested in this kind of stuff. I remember a long time ago, seeing soldiers/police doing the dragging thing where each person had their hand on the shoulder of person in front of them as they moved. Don't see much of that in most videos today, except in one showing the JDSF training with American forces.
Henry Wright
My department teaches the hand thing to patrol officers because it emphasizes the need to move as a single unit. We didn't have to teach it in the military because we cultivated an entirely different mindset. In a military context, you're probably doing this with guys you know and trained with daily for years.
While as a LEO, it may not be someone you always work with, might be some guy or gal you've never seen before and you have no idea ifthere were some SOF meateater or some faggot with a liberal arts degree that used to have a manbun.
Landon Price
South African LE guys are tough af, having to operate in one of the most lawless "democratic" countries.
Cameron Stewart
True, but on the other hand, they're against africans
Dylan Thomas
Pointman’s job is to get the fuck out of the way
Hudson Green
I believe it after seeing the video. My assumption was of some pisspot paramilitary, and it was an incorrect assumption.
Isaac Robinson
Dude just turn around and the flashbang wont disorient you