What level of "assistance" would i need to fire >pic related

We aren't talking about pistol rounds but fucking .75 cal shell launcher, one without any vents. The amount of force needed to propel that weapon out of a bolter is large and would result in massive recoil even with a kicker charge like said. There is a reason why the astartes uses them. Check out a diagram of a standard bolter shell and compare the kicker to to the overall size of the shell

Probably not too much if the guns were actually built proportionally to the caliber they're chambered in, as is they're described as being too heavy for a normal human to even shoulder properly, so I guess the first thing you'd need would be a mount to attach it to. It's recoil is also described as being unbearable for normal humans so I'd imagine that the fireball and concussion would be like or greater than that of an HMG, enough that assuming you have the upper body strength to lift the thing to aim it the recoil would be enough to probably break your wrist outright, since the most common version has no stock which means your wrist and forearm are going to be soaking all of that recoil. Remember that this gun is larger than the average human torso.

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Given the levels of fucks most of the enemies of the imperium typically give about most weapons it goes without saying although I suppose it's also subject to whether or not that day a volley of las fire can cut down a chaos marine or mow down 10 orks in one volley.

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user I think your chart is wrong, the guy on the right is 5'11 and the guy on the left is 6'

I'd also add considering how massive and overbuilt the gun is, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the normal trigger pull is too heavy to to manage without using your entire hand. After all its built to be pulled by a superhuman who could easily bench press a truck.

average marine is closer to 7'

if we take novel influence as given, a lasbolt will knock a bloody, half-charred chunk out of a man, though against the big nasties suck surface damage probably doesn't do much shot-by-shot, but successive bolts can punch progressively deeper like the way M1a2s get mobility killed by multiple/tandem-charge RPGs, rare or circumstantial, but possible

given Inquisitor skirmish rules put a marine at the ability to barehand punch a man's head off? yeah, marine guns would need to be overbuilt

>boltgun
>shoulder properly
Do you see the problem here?

Exactly, which is why trying to shoot one would give you a one way ticket to snapped wrists town, no refunds.

Which makes sense because their firing stances and tactics typically make use of their pauldrons as shields.

In the Astartes mini seires when the rebels try to ambush the marines with an autocannon one of the marines purposefully leans into the hole and takes the shot with his pauldron before going about his business.

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The Imperial Guard use the heavy version in field gun emplacements.

You would need an anchored bi/tripod.

Most shotguns are .73

what's up with all the sights on the the bolters now?

So are saigas using slugs the closest thing we have to bolters IRL? If so BRB I'm buying a saiga and making it Imperium approved

Idk I thought the targeting data was connected to the armor via a HUD display

I present to you the 12ga shotgun.

You'd need a solid point to set that tripod up on then pile a fuck ton of sandbags on top. If you're a Kreiger then you can just use your dead friends, there's probably a lot of them around you anyway.

that's what I was thinking

british artistry

closest 12ga shell that resembles a bolt round is the Frag12, all it lacks is gyro-jet propulsion and the various warheads would more or less Jow Forums the definition of a bolt

I have an image somewhere, here's the link: modernfirearms.net/en/shotguns/u-s-a-shotguns/origin-12-eng/

Probably in case the marine goes without their helmet why take them off if you can get the feed into your helmet and still use it when you don't?

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Yes, but only a fraction of a shotgun shell is propellent. The gyrojet used in the bolter is comprised of mostly propellent, both rocket and the initial charge. A 12 gauge shell would be comparable if it consisted of almost all propellant with an explosive warhead

All you're talking about needing is the same powder used to launch a 12ga, arguably less because the jet takes over after it leaves the barrel. You could have a 5in shell to carry a decent enough payload. The only thing at that point would be magazine capacity and weight.

The books always described them as being 3 meters tall from what I remember

that actually makes sense

And that tiny fraction spits shot out really far and really fast away from the muzzle. With a bolter you just need enough so that it can leave the barrel and not squib until the jet takes over.

GWoT influence on media trickling down onto miniature games. Same as the Raptor chapter.

>jet takes over after it leaves the barrel
If we're being a little serious, there has to be more than that. Rockets accelerate over time, so unless the bolt isn't going to pen worth shit at 25m, it's got to have some fucking oomph from that kicker charge.

iirc,it was something like 2.2m~2.5m, so eight foot is close to the max for most tall marines, the typical descriptor is "head and shoulders above a normal man", but this is never clarified as to whether they mean the average modern day European 5'8" ish man familiar to the reader and anyone from the holdings of Ultramar or the starvation-stunted dross of the average hive manufactory/business levels

That is true regarding a shot shell, but since the gyrojet is self propelled and weighs a lot more than the various types of shot (including slugs) the initial powder charge would have to be larger than the recoil on a shotgun. #2 in the image is the initial charge required

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as much oomph as a shotgun shell?

going by the oldest 3e schematics the artists provide, the rocket motor is likely a fast-burning type that dumps its delta-v rapidly for acceleration over producing a long-range flat trajectory

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here's a decent rendition

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Ever fired a Mk19, or seen one in action? Imagine now that thing will be much smaller and lighter, all held in your arms, recoiling and tearing all your joints and cartridges loose.

Sure you can fire it, but don't count on running and firing it like an AR-15 all day and expect to be fine without some power armor.

Imagine shooting this without the tripod.

youtube.com/watch?v=jFonEr5xMMc

Mk19 is 40mm, .75cal is 19mm, 1.00cal is 24.5mm

combined with a very rough use of square-cube law, we're only using something like one quarter the propellant on that kicker charge for a bolt for the same pre-rocket range on a bolt

Attached: IronHandsBolterMarine.jpg (788x543, 295K)

Recoil is actually heavy as it has a base "kicker" charge that propels the bolt to high enough muzzle velocity so it can penetrate at close range before the rocket motor can accelerate it.
From being a .75 caliber gun it's roughly the equivalent of firing slugs from a high brass 10 guage in the recoil department. So not low at all.

which is funny when it went from "beefy gangers and guard can fire this like macho assholes" to "humans can't fire Marin-calibur bolters, -.25cal" instead of 'nobody but a marine has hands big enough to properly fire a marine bolter'

That is correct, however you can imagine the recoil forces transmitted. Lets just say a quarter of the recoil of the Mk 19.

Now, Mk 19 77.6 points without ammo. Sold metal construction. Lets bring that weight down to maybe a third. My calculations state that is around 25 pounds. Okay thats the weight of a m240.

Now imagine shoulder firing a m240 normally. Its doable, hell I've done it. Was it pleasant? Well there wasn't much recoil because of the weight of the gun absorbing that 7.62x51mm like a boss, but imagine let's say that I was shooting a belt of 40mm m203/320 since those are roughly a quarter to a third of the propellant charge compared with Mk 19 40mms.

So I am wielding a 25 pound giant sub machine gun that shoots 40mm 203/320 rounds on automatic, a round this known to take your finger off your hand if you dont hold it right, a round that is known to crack rifle buttstocks, a round known for pancaking your collarbone from the recoil AND I have to use this as my main service rifle? You see were I'm getting here?

Welcome to 40k, everything is canon but not everything is necessarily true.

that's probably why there's no stock on most bolters, legit the only way to do it is high-ready hipfire

And you do that without any augmentation, you can say goodbye to your fingers and wrist. Remember how I say that the 40mm 204/320 likes to eat your fingers out of your hand? That is what happens if you 'hip-fire'.

that's because you're lobbing a 40mm shell, .75cal shells are likely only a few ounces, same or higher accelerations aren't going to bee AS beefy, but they will fuck a limpwrister up

Didn't we establish that the .75 Bolt round was similar to the 40mm 203/320 round? You know the whole 40mm Mk19 round and low velocity 40mm 203/320 round is about quarter charge to it? Jesus christ man, that .75mm Bolt round gotta go further than the 203/320 load to be combat effective. I know mass plays a big deal, but ever fired 308s out of rifles in the single digit weights? Its a very similar concept. That kicker charge is going to do you in, guaranteed.

you attempt to establish, yes, but a 40mm round is about 8 ounces, we're talking about something that's at most 3-4 ounces, we need some math

Jow Forums really is the dumbest board.

This is a .700 Nitro Express.

youtube.com/watch?v=CLxMlL333_Y

Last I checked, Astartes Godwynn Pattern Bolters are in .75 cal

It's not a necessarily good assumption to make but if the .75 boltgun round is the same general density as a .50 BMG than it should be in the range of 2.4-2.6 ounces. Considering though that 40k's material science allows for denser materials and those materials are often used in armor and ammo I think it's fair to put it in the 3-4 ounce range. For reference, .50 BMGs range from 42 grams (1.48 ounces) to 52 grams (1.83 ounces)

See this. And as the 1d4chan wiki stated, although bolters are gyrojets, they behave very similarly to conventional firearms when firing

perhaps that's part of the reason for the godwyn-pat's bulky design (in-universe)? recoil mitigation?

pic related .700NE is the high-end example of what we'd expect of something like a bolt pistol

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None because it is a 30mm grenade launcher.

Except it’s not. Because again, it’s a gyrojet, so you don’t need a fuckton of initial velocity.

also keep in mind that even something like a 3" 12ga shell with a 1oz slug still has most of its internal space taken up by wadding

is a likely example of what a bolt round looks like

>.700NE is the high-end example of what we'd expect of something like a bolt pistol

that was meant as "that's the worst somebody could shoot a bolt pistol without being prepared for the shot"

And that is where 40k lore drops the ball, as stated in an above statement. The Kicker Charge and its casing makes it behave very similarly to a convention cartridge.

No it’s not. Because is clearly comparing a bolster directly to .700 NE. Which as we’ve established isn’t a direct comparison

it isn't, I agree with you, I never once said "yeah, that's exactly the kind of kick we should be expecting out of these things" only a total fuckup gun virgin could softhand a bolter so badly as to make it look like he's firing a .700NE and then you'd only expect it out of a pistol frame and not really anything else

I'd imagine the bulky ass construction is to make sure that it holds up over its centuries of use. Plus theyre being taken into the hardest battlefields, and being carried by dudes who can take the weight. Shits gotta be durable yo.

How hard is it for any of you dumb fucks to do this.

1d4chan.org/wiki/Bolter#Recoil

I think a lot of anons ITT are forgetting that bolters are still just as effective in close quarters, as they are at range. Perhaps the kicker charge accelerates the shell to it's optimum velocity, then the booster simply keeps the shell from slowing down over long distances?

That would be the sensible answer but 40k is dumb when it comes to engineering, the normal Godwyn is both so heavy a normal man can't lift it without a stand or tripod to hold the weight but also kicks so hard that it is explicitly stated as being able to wrench a normal human's arm clean out of the socket. The "kicker" charge must use an enormously volatile propellant which doesn't exist in our universe except in labs, something with enormous energy density and the gun is probably overbuilt so that the barrel and chamber don't detonate like bombs when it ignites. I wouldn't be shocked if the boltshell is already going at 5.56x45 speeds the second it leaves the barrel and goes hypersonic just a score of meters afterwards as the jets burn off all of the second stage of propellant.

we'd see obliterated cases in the art if that were the case, I can see some doofus holding the gun wrong and getting his shoulder dislocated though

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that would imply a smaller rocket motor than most would expect and would explain the high felt recoil

I presume you mean person-sized Bolters and not Astartes, that'd be too cumbersome.

Bolters work by some kinda two-stage firing system where it has a kicker just like any other bullet but only to negate the shitty muzzle velocity gyrojets suffer from. Once the bolt leaves the gun, the bolt supposedly propels itself.

The bullets/bolts themselves vary but the Astartes-sized ones are said to be about .75 Caliber. Assuming you're not a 7-foot supersoldier, you're probably using somewhere way closer to 12.7mm or .50 projectiles. I guess pretend you're firing a .500 S&W but, as said before, the rocket is supposed to do most of the work, the initial charge is just supposed to give it muzzle velocity. There's likely also some sort of futuristic recoil damping technology so, presuming it's meant for regular people, it should be reasonably tolerable.

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A bolter must have pretty good penetration at close ranges and if we take into account that future armor might be even better than what we have now, we're looking into modern 20mm autocannon velocities. And the low volume cartridge case can be explained by them using better more energetic propellants.
Recoil could be reduced with a high-low system like in a grenade launcher.
And it could perform better in a microgravity environment thanks to the rocket motor.

About this much assistance,
Notice the recoil that even an Astartes needs to brace against.
youtu.be/V2B6de1Geks

(also this video is fucking cool regardless)

case isn't actually that low volume, most 10ga/12ga shells have a large portion of their volume filled by wadding

That's an Astartes Bolter though. Those are bigger & fire bigger shots than normal ones.

why is that soldier 5'6" including his hat

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supposedly

cool? it's fuckmazing

so fucking kino

Also a 20mm cannon is the closest match to the fluff .75 (19mm).
For a regular guardsmen that would be like firing a 20mm AT, they could probably fire one no problem when prone.
And about the propellant, the low case capacity could also be explained by them using more energetic priming techniques (plasma, etc)

Average US male height is 5' 9" and most of the world is a bit shorter, with some populations being exceptionally shorter and a very small number being significantly taller. If you average the shortest recorded male average (Indonesia, 5' 2") with the highest (Dinatric Alps, 6' 1") you actually get 171.8cm or 5' 6".

begging the question: is the case actually lo-cap?

pure kino

Attached: astartes charging psykers.webm (640x292, 2.26M)

Wonder if firing Lahti L/39 AT-rifle be comparable?

What does it do?

Gryojets

It goes "pew pew, Emprah"

Do the red ones go faster?

You'll need assistance to pick that thing up in the first place.
"Like other Space Marine weaponry, Astartes Bolters are designed to be handled by their superhuman physique. The weight of each Godwyn Pattern Bolter means that most normal humans cannot handle the weapon comfortably without the aid of a supporting brace, and the weapon's handgrips are too large for a mortal to grasp without assistance. However, even if a mortal were to fire the Bolter, the resulting recoil would most likely rip his or her arm from its socket"

It says nothing about the weight but I guess this hunk of metal is ~25kg. atleast.
Now imagine how great the recoil must be to accelarate this hunk so fast that it dislocates your shoulder despite the inertia.
"As well as the rocket propellant, a small conventional charge is also utilised. This charge is strong enough to force the bolt out of the barrel at a significant muzzle velocity, and simultaneously ignite the bolt's propellant."

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Assistance to fire an SM boltgun?

Not much. Might need multiple fingers to overcome the trigger pull if it's designed for an SM.

Assistance with your broken bones after the recoil knocks you to the floor, and potentially breaks your wrist?

Yeah, maybe a lot.

Swedes had 75cal guns in 1800s

>what is a recoilless rifle?
Bigthink.jpg

Maybe not bolter rifles. But what about bolter pistols? I bet a human could handle one without destroying hinself.

They are commonly used by officers of the imperial guard. No problem there.
There are bolters that can be used by normal humans such as the Godwyn-De'az pattern bolter used by the sisters of battle.
Pic related, scale 1:1

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I want one of those

Guard officers and Commissars can also take bolter rifles for like, 1pt extra iirc but presumably they're smaller ones like the Sisters use.