If the major advantage of intermediate calibers is controlablity and volume in automatic fire...

>So... a ruger mini-30?
No. Among other things, I like the idea of a fixed magazine that militiamen can't lose. Picture an M1 Carbine with a synthetic stock, a permanently-attached bayonet, and a fixed 20-round magazine, that shoots .300 Blackout, and you'll be close to what I have in mind.

based yeah poster

So the mini 14 tactical BLK with a bayonet and affix the mag

Ok sure, but If im putting together a militia right now, we dont have access to machine guns, so we'll be limited to rifle tactics.
If we're talking fantasy land where every type of weapon is available, we'll have LMGs and HMGs and mortar squads and whatever else professional military use.

Also, the Germans were almost all using full length bolt action rifles with irons, not carbines.
We can do better.

Technically the Kar98k was a carbine by the standards of when it was made.

>If the major advantage of intermediate calibers is controlablity and volume in automatic fire,
That was a major motivation for their adoption, yes. The ability to carry more ammo compared to a full size "battle rifle" was too.

But something else has happened since then: people realized that they were rarely engaging at 1000-meter sort of distances which called for a full-size battle rifle. At the sort of distances at which modern combat is happening at there's rarely a benefit to carrying around a .308-class weapon when something smaller works just as well.

One could make Light Automatic Rifles with the old coat hanger trick and use them similarly to the BAR in interwar US tactics until sufficient MGs could be captured from OPFOR

Good thing you aren’t the one designing guns.

Yes, one certainly COULD, and use 100 round c mag drums, and bipods and 20" barrels and turn an AR into an LMG.
But it poses a number of problems that would dissuade me from adopting that practice.
Potential malfunctions of improperly modified weapons is one, and again resupply is another, since with an LMG you will be consuming a lot more ammunition.
The hypothetical doctrine that this hypothetical squad would be using considers "suppressing fire" to be one shot every two seconds. One 30 round mag roughly buys you one minute of suppression per rifle.

Compared to the 4 foot long spears that also shot bullets used in the first World War, that is true, but not by modern standards.

Shut the fuck up.

Go for a Lee-Enfield model, not permanently affixed.

You are really dumb. For real.

>, I like the idea of a fixed magazine that militiamen can't lose

Were you dropped as a child, or did mommy have a few too many drinkie-poos while she was preggers?

When the US changed from 7.62 to 5.56 it was noticed that shooters using 5.56 qualified with better scores.
If the armed forces, who have a giant industrial machine behind them, don't get enough trigger time to git gud with a 7.62 to the point they shoot better with lighter calibers, how do you expect to properly train a militia to be good enough marksmen to take advantage of battle rifles?

Mind that even the IRA trained most of their guys with wooden guns so they could perform training drills and only let them shoot a few times with live ammo. Unless you capture an ammo plant you need to limit the ammo expenditure and making too much noise with strenuous marksmanship training would make it easy for hordes of cheap drones with microphones to figure out where your training facilities are located.

>drastically hampering your dudes' capabilities because you're worried they might lose a $6 consumable item

jesus christ skinflint just stock up.

you're literally describing a worse weapon than the mini-30

It's a cheap consumable item because you can just buy one right now.
If the muh-litia ever had to do its job then what you bring with you is all that's available until Uncle Putin or Uncle Xi start dropping crates just to instigate the búgalú.

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So use ARs? The US military has fuckton of AR mags.

>needs to feed his family with that rifle.
humans aren't meant to eat meat. murdering animals for the purpose of sustenance is completely stupid and counter intuitive. if SHTF you'd be better off making an allotment and living off vegetables like humans are meant to.

Yeah and you could also pull a Mexican Autodefensas and take over the police to confiscate their stuff, because they're using ARs too.

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So basically what you're saying is that none of you have ever had a job where you've worked directly with the public - retail, tech support, customer service, etc - and you don't understand just how idiot-proof you have make things in order for the average person to not find a way to massively fuck it up in ways that you honestly didn't believe was possible. If you'd ever even done anything as common as trying to teach a Boomer how to send an email, you'd know what I'm talking about here. But since you live in your mothers' basements and never talk to 3D humans, you don't.

No, you're a dumbass. There's a reason even the europoors don't use fixed mags anymore.

Sweet Jimeney fucking Jesus, that seething. You had a stupid idea, and we called you out for it.

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If a person is too stupid to use a weapon with a detachable magazine they will be too stupid to use a weapon with a fixed magazine.

So buy them right now and cache them so you don't have to worry about it when you need them. Same as anything. The clever squirrel begins preparing for the winter in the spring.

>Sweet Jimeney fucking Jesus, that seething. You had a stupid idea, and we called you out for it.
No, you're just a bunch of tactigeeks with a bad case of the "I Am The World" fallacy. Basically, you're the gun equivalent of a computer nerd who just can't comprehend the idea that anyone out there finds Linux too hard to use. "All my online friends use it, and we don't have any trouble! I mean, if something goes wrong, just fix it in the command line! What's so hard about that?"

Get outside more, fellas.

>Every military on Earth that can afford to uses modern guns, none of which since the SKS have included fixed magazines
>I'm not wrong, everyone else is
If you really trust the people in your militia that little form a better militia

Listen, if you think the average person is dumb, just wait until you find out there's a group of people dumber than them that join the military. And they're given m4s with detachable magazines. Christ, if they can trust the National Guard with a handful of magazines you can trust a CVS cashier with that responsibility. I'd rather have a lost magazine than Shaquandarious putting a round into his buddy's head trying to figure out stripper clips.

I don’t think you quite understand what a “citizen militia” is supposed to be.

T. someone pushing an idea the entire world abandoned 70 years ago.

Are you really that fucked to think people would be better off using stripper clips over training to swap and keep mags?

>If the major advantage of intermediate calibers is controlablity and volume in automatic fire,
Premise is flawed. Weight of ammo is arguably the major advantage.

A militia formed by the citizenry, not a soviet style "everyone's in" deal

>I like the idea of a fixed magazine that militiamen can't lose.
Look, I understand most people are fumbling retards, but if religious goat fuckers who can’t even shoot right are able to retain box magazines, it’s not too out there to entrust us militia to not lose their shit as well.

>So buy them right now and cache them so you don't have to worry about it when you need them
Still, the context was about detachable magazines being dropped. You can cache them, but not an infinite amount. So while the concept that detachable magazines you need to retain during combat has been more than validated, the fact that you can buy them isn't relevant to the point that the militia should NOT drop mags. And the fact that you can cache a multitude of them only delays the point at which you need to become accountable for every mag you use in combat.
Unless you take over a factory or are getting foreign aid.

>I raise you wehrmacht tactics, a bunch of rifle caliber carbines and one MG
Implying this was unique to the wehrmacht

weak b8, u must dil8

>Still, the context was about detachable magazines being dropped.
It’s not just dropped. It’s men not showing up because their wife moved their “spring box thingamabobbers” somewhere (“Maybe check out in the garage, dear?”) or their toddlers packed Play-Doh into them at some point, or they rusted into dust because they stored them under the sink for some reason. Stuff like this won’t be uncommon. At all.

You have taken the ultimate brasspill. Intermediate calibers are for soldiers working in units that utilize the tactic of laying suppressive fire. If you're laying suppressive fire in a SHTF or le 3% uprising, where ammo will undoubtedly be scarce, you fucked up. You should utilize a long range caliber that can punch through cover, because people actually hide behind shit when they shoot at you and you can't call in support.

Your role should NOT be to make people's heads go down, it should be to pop those heads when they come up.

>Your role should NOT be to make people's heads go down, it should be to pop those heads when they come up
But how will you be accurate enough to pop heads when you're too scared to pop your own head due to suppression?

Wait for them to reload or inevitably run out of ammo

And you get brained by his friend or him because his magazine wasn't empty. Also dysentery. Would you like to play again?

a.k.a. get maneuvered on and die like a helpless faggot, choking down a scream with grit in your eyes and bullets in 2 or 3 limbs before someone you never saw coming puts five shots in your back.

Fire and maneuver is the only alternative to sniping.

>a permanently-attached bayonet
>shoots .300 Blackout
Peak 'tardation.

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>"this platoon of 30 men will all have to reload at the same time"

That's retarded, but the gun you want for the role you have in mind would be a sks. Get some of those 20 round fixed mags.

here. I've worked tech support, I have IT experience, and I've managed a college chemistry lab. Oh, believe me, I know that people are idiots. You simply cannot make things idiot-proof; it's honestly not possible.

It doesn't matter if a militaman loses a magazine. The militia has thousands of them. It's not 1900 anymore; there are no consequences to losing a mag like there were back then.

For 300m and in intermediate calibers are king. Further than that and the only reason to not be using a full size rifle are that you have explosions a mere radio call away.

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it's like somebody took the scout rifle and destroyed everything it had going for it

If they can't handle a magazine loaded with ammo, what makes you think they can handle clips? I get idiot proofing things, but you're taking it too far. There are definitely some cutoffs for being able tohandle a gun, and not being able to keep track of detachable magazines is oneof them

This is the single most boomer thing I've heard in a powerful long time.

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Pie corners and objects. A noob won't spot you until you already have a good sight picture on them.

Not saying it was, that's just what I find the "purest." Americans and Brits had Automatic Rifles for walking firing and the stuff.

Not really how it works, king. The side capable of putting more firepower in the direction of the enemy will have the upper hand because even trying to pie will make you eat a bullet before you can get a shot off.

Press the homefield advantage, you have more time to specialize camouflage with the local flora, you know the area, your regulations are looser. Every man should be blending in with his environment, use cans, improvised if necessary, to prevent muzzleflash and lessen sound. Kill as many as possible before you're seen and then unleash whatever hell you're packing. More engagements means more military grade equipment.

ya brothers only thing better than dead is more dead!

So you want to go back to loading with stripper clips. You don't have to worry about losing a mag and making it idiot proof, the military is full of room temp IQ retards and they give them detachable mags.

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>the military is full of room temp IQ retards and they give them detachable mags

The military has the advantage of having the MIC supply them with all the mags they need and then some.
Militias don't. I'm all for detachable magazines, I just don't think we should compare the situation to the military.

Classical conditioning in the form of strenuous exercise.

Yeah the Brit's sure proved that during the boar war lol

Militias already exist all over the world and they use detachable mags. 65 IQ Somali rear liners use stg 44s that is possibly the worst supplied mag on planet earth and they are fine. The Taliban stole ak74 mags in the 80's and could only replace them by stealing more and they stayed in mags. Mags aren't hard at all.

Stripper clips are also breakable, less reliable and top loading makes a gun more prone to choke on debris.

also fucks with a scope pretty hard

But they went too far in the other direction. 300 meters is not enough to cover all the situations infantry can still be effective at. If you try to stretch 5.56 out to 500 or 600 its terminal effectiveness will have dropped dramatically.

A "high intermediate" cartridge like most experimental ones from various countries were before 5.56 was pushed through NATO was the best spot to settle down on.

Getting hit with a 5,56 at 600 Wil take you out the fight. You aren't smarter then NATO. And getting hits at 500+ against someone trying to not be hit and shooting at you is damn near impossible without specialized gear

It's almost like infantry carries more then just shoulder rifles

Stfu veggiefag

Also capacity

>You aren't smarter then NATO
7.62x51
I rest my case

S H O O T
N
S C O O T

American's did. The bren was a light machine gun, treated as such, and was more central to the section than in the wehrmacht

That’s an sks

Why would you want to increase the chances of a fudd screwing up with stripper clips or hand feeding? Nit to mention you now double or triple the number of times they need tonreload during a fight. Counterintuitive at the least, and catastrophic at worst.

It doesn't matter if your rifle is effective out to 600m. Artillery and CAS are as effective as your FO can make them. Small arms are mostly for personal defense at much closer ranges. It's a big meme that the infantry "closes with and destroys the enemy." What we do is take cover and call for fire. Artillery is much better at killing people than an infantryman ever could be. There's a reason it's called the king of battle.

>controlablity and volume in automatic fire
This also applies to semi auto
Get a shot timer and compare a bone stock m16a1 to a G3 in semi

it was well known at the time that .223 was not a good choice. it met weight requirements but it was solely a varmint round

>The AOB deliberately dragged their feet on tehse tests; and in many ways pout their thumbs on the scales. They eventually legitimately concluded, that the proper choice for a replacement for the 7.62 nato was a 6.5mm cartridge, firing a 100-120gr bullet at approximately 3,000fps; but by then, it was too late. They had wasted all their credibility and good will sabotaging the .223 and the AR15; and the defense department ordered them to adopt both, unchanged, immediately.

>This was a disaster; because as regards what became the 5.56 nato, they were correct. The round wasn't a suitable replacement for the 7.2 nato. It had been denegrated as a varmint round, not even big enough to hunt deer with in msot states, and they were right.

>Artillery and CAS are as effective as your FO can make them.
They are as effective as they are able to respond to your FO. And that's the problem; what if support just isn't there at a particular point in time? Sit around with a thumb up your ass while the enemy does do the standard tactic of closing and surrounding? That does seem to have been US doctrine in the desert shenanigans of the past decade but I really do find it a little sheltered and shortsighted.

Making sure your infantry can contribute more and in a wider variety of situations is not a cost ineffective step. Even something as large scale as changing up service rifle calibers does not begin to approach the astronomical price tag of modern chairforce assets.

Yea let me just throw some seeds in the ground real quick. Waste untold gallons of water for four months until my tomato is ready. Lol fuck you are stupid.

The fn fal was the perfect weapon for the Falklands, and would have served troops very well in Afghanistan. Both American and British squads were rapidly supplied with sniper/battle rifles in 7.62 and larger to increase their effective range. In a fibua situation (or jungle) 5.56 9mm and 12g are of more use. The environment is the primary decider in what weapon is most suitable.

That 600m range is always going to be an uncomfortable range for pure infantry engagements, and in light of the opportunity cost of fielding 7.62x51 battle rifles in lieu of the lighter 5.56 options, I don't see it being of supreme import. Being 600m away from an enemy element is a great place to be when dropping 155's. My point about artillery is that doctrinally it is highly integrated into infantry command structures at battalion level, which is organic ENOUGH to be able to be relied upon. I'm not sure if I'm coming across right, but infantry units are designed to operate with artillery support similar to the way that tanks need to be fielded with infantry in combined arms. It's why every single infantry platoon has a forward observer. Given how highly integrated we are with artillery, I believe that carrying fewer rounds or significantly more weight is not worth your average, mediocre infantryman likely not even really being significantly more effective at ranges you can already rely on artillery for.

>Yea let me just throw some seeds in the ground real quick. Waste untold gallons of water for four months until my tomato is ready. Lol fuck you are stupid.
>throws some big money into an animal that would have never existed unless humans bred them into being, wastes untold gallons of water, acres of land, and tons of cereal and legumes for the amount of time it takes for an oversized baby animal to materialize

You forgot periodically sticking your arm down its ass, injecting it with sperm, having that smell be everywhere in a one mile radius of your property, having to cut their horns / beaks / tails / testicles / off, tagging them with plastic, burning marks into them, et cetera

You forgot cumming in their butts too when you get lonely enough

That's only with sheep

The low recoil is a huge advantage in semi-automatic too, for follow up shots against moving targets, or targets that are only momentarily exposed.
The military almost never actually uses automatic fire in their rifles, even at CQB distances.

>This was a disaster; because as regards what became the 5.56 nato, they were correct. The round wasn't a suitable replacement for the 7.2 nato. It had been denegrated as a varmint round, not even big enough to hunt deer with in most states, and they were right.

You're not allowed to hunt deer with .223 because of fuddlaw, just like those states that only let your use straightwalled cartridges. I know a few Canadians whose only cartridge requirements are "it has to be centerfire" and drop deer on the first round with M193 all the time.

Wouldn't use M855 though, that IS a piece of shit.

This is the real issue.
"A civilian militia needs .308 rifles because we don't have MGs, arty, etc for longer distances"
That's true, the military uses those weapons because they are much infinitely more effective than rifles at those longer ranges.
Now who do you suppose a militia would be fighting?

So what happens when you run out of stripper clips

The fal is not an accurate rifle and would arguably be worse at 600m than a 16+" 5.56x45. the 7.62x51 rifles they used were far more accurate than fals.

>A civilian militia needs .308 rifles because we don't have MGs, arty, etc for longer distances
In my mind, having been on the other side (roughly) of it, it really doesn't matter all that much what the civilian militia is using. If they're in a position to take advantage of 7.62x51 being the superior round, cartridge for cartridge, there's a pretty decent chance that a good portion of them are already or very soon to be dead in a direct engagement. Engaging a conventional military element without commensurate military support elements is tantamount to suicide. There isn't a rifle caliber on this planet that will change that. What a militia needs more than a heavier cartridge is good asymmetrical warfare TTP's.

So an M1 Garand with none of it's strengths and a bunch of new weaknesses in a smaller, less powerful caliber?

I think trying to argue for a full rifle caliber being more effective due to increased energy at range is silly. Full power calibers are mostly useful because they allow you to shoot through barriers better. Using 7.62 NATO allows you to disable vehicles and cause damage to infrastructure with more reliability than 5.56, and when sniping at the opposing force allows you to defeat glass and sheet metal with less deviation.

Nobody is fighting large scale land warfare anymore, controlling cities is more important to both conventional forces and guerillas seeking to maintain dominance over the population.