Does anyone use something other than hollow points as their main defensive load?
All I hear about is hollowpoints, hollowpoints, hollowpoints. But every now and again you hear about some old timer that absolutely swears by lead semi-wadcutters, or hard cast flat nose, or some other bullet type that's not a hollowpoint.
If you couldn't carry hollowpoints, what would you carry?
>If you couldn't carry hollowpoints, what would you carry? hollow points because I'm not a retarded cuck like you
Kevin Diaz
Armor piercing incendiary
Jordan Edwards
.38 158 gr LSWC have a decent field rep. If you had a 4" .357 Jacketed soft points would probably be a good bet as well. Alot of people are starting to fiddle with the Underwood Xtreme lineup now too, low grainage, higher velocity
Hudson Hughes
If we're talking about a handgun for defense against people then hollow points are easily the obvious choice.
>But every now and again you hear about some old timer that absolutely swears by lead semi-wadcutters ....which is because modern hollow points didn't exist when he was forming opinions about ammo
Flat nose would be your 2nd best choice if you can't get hollow points for some reason (assuming they feed well in your semi, of course)
> hard cast flat nose Have an excellent reputation as a hunting round. mainly due to Elmer Keith writing about them. But a hunting load is not necessarily a good defense load.
Noah Cox
I would carry xtreme defenders but I first want field reports on its effectiveness against living humans.
Ethan Smith
>If you couldn't carry hollowpoints, what would you carry?
An AR15 with M193
Pistol bullets suck. Even with the best hollowpoints they're sub-optimal.
Easton Wilson
Philips head, maybe. The goofy corkscrew rounds actually seem to work despite the fact that they're overpriced as hell.
Also to add to this I carry 115+p+ Gold Dots. If I couldn't use those I'd probably carry 124 NATO. I keep a mag of it in the car for whatever reason
Nicholas Brown
>If you couldn't summer is just beginning
Eli Walker
heavier grain ball ammo honestly.
Liam Lewis
Why cuck yourself with ball type ammo when you're not bound by the geneva convention?
Liam Miller
Truncated Cone FMJ seems to be the go-to for self defense in countries that don’t allow hollowpoints.
As long as you’re putting lead down range anything is better than nothing.
Luis Lewis
Just stick small wads of unrefined lead into casings. It'll either really fuck up the guys you're shooting, or really fuck both of you up when your gun explodes. Win win.
Mason King
ARX.
Levi Price
Yeah. I'm intrigued by the Xtreme Defender rounds but I'm put off by all the gel testing.
Unless a round reaches 2200 fps then the hydrostatic shock it creates won't actually cause tissue damage. Tissue is extremely elastic. I've seen videos where people test the Xtreme Defender bullets out of .32 ACP and .380 ACP guns, and go "Wow! Look at that temporary stretch cavity!". A gel test is not a good representation of damage to a living target. From everything I've read there are only two bullet types that are well suited for self defense handgun loads: Hollowpoint, and some kind of big heavy flat nose bullet, wadcutters, semi-wadcutters, flat nose, etc.
I really think that Xtreme Penetrator / Xtreme Defender bullets have GREAT potential in calibers that regularly exceed 2200 fps. At that point the increased hydrostatic shock WILL result in increased injury. At least that's how I read it after researching the subject for a while.
Anthony Foster
Hollow points don’t expand at mouse gun ranges. I use wadcutters
Wyatt Baker
they all fall to the ball
Blake Roberts
Heavy ball works through windshields
Levi Howard
soft points. old school scalloped jacketed soft points if you can find them. shot shells for pistol cartridges honetly lead semi wad cutters actually would not be that bad now that I think about it.
accurate flat point exposed lead many different kinds of grains and variants with or without cannelure for crimped hot loads or medium to mild to light loads.
Ethan Taylor
>after researching the subject for a while. You mean for 12 minutes and 47 seconds? Because there's only one place that "2200 fps" figure comes from; if you actually researched the subject instead of watching one video, you'd know it's bunk.
Henry Edwards
You'd choose improved windshield penetration capabilty over improved terminal performance?
Andrew Lopez
I carry 327 and I want to find a mold for 250 grain wad cutters
Asher Brown
accuratemolds.com
Jack Williams
Shot placement is more important than penetration or expansion. You cannot place your shots if your bullets can't reach the target in the first place.
Evan Gutierrez
>Shot placement is more important than penetration or expansion. Yes. But I didn't ask you what was the most important variable, so I have no idea why you are bringing that up. I asked you about the tradeoff you were suggesting.
Are you a LEO or something? I just don't see the average CCW holder needing to shoot through a windshield often enough to make it anywhere close to a primary consideration for ammo selection.
Isaiah Sanchez
>Does anyone use something other than hollow points as their main defensive load? Wintertime is pic related. (And a 6" barrel, so even if that Lucky Gunner video weren't BS, it's over 2200fps.)
Summertime is 9mm for now, just because I haven't gotten around to making a .22 TCM barrel for my Glock 48. So I'm carrying JHPs at the moment; not worth investing in 100+ rounds of Underwood for the 9mm placeholder barrel.
just so my retarded joke doesn't get lost, that's double and a half the typical bullet weight. in order to make that work, you'd probably use 32s&w brass or push it waay down in there
also, the molds run around 100 dollars
Jason Clark
Joke or not, that's totally doable.
>also, the molds run around 100 dollars Are you trying to imply that's expensive? They make custom molds to your spec, that seems totally reasonable to me.
Josiah Gomez
I dont I carry Gold Dots I just keep a spare mag of 124 NATO in the car for whatever. Some states disallow HP, I believe NJ is one of them
Matthew Ramirez
Find me any kind of remotely scientific article stating that projectiles fired at below 2,200 fps will result in temporary stretch cavities that cause actual damage beyond bruising.
Connor Campbell
Right, I was asking why you were choosing 124 NATO instead of some other ammo for your backup.
Kayden Ross
i'm not saying they're expensive, I agree that's a good price.
It;s worth more than the joke to me at the moment, but i thought somebody else might like to know
Jeremiah Martin
I carry these in my summer pocket gun. I hear good things about um
Nolan Cox
It's 9mm loaded proper. I carry 17+1 in my Glock of 115 gold dot, 2 spare mags in the car. 1 15 round mag of Gold Dot, 1 17 round mag of 124 NATO. Helps for vehicles as well. Will I likely get in some extended firefight scenario where I'll need all that? Probably not but I an 11b OIF guy so that stuff is kind of engrained in my mentality, so i like to be somewhat prepared
Chase Jackson
>I have no idea why you are bringing that up Because terminal performance is worthless if you don't hit.
I have long guns in my house and my workplace is reasonably secure. The vast majority of the time that I might need to use a handgun is when I am in my car or in a parking lot, situations which involve a lot of auto glass that I may find myself wanting to be able to shoot through. The difference in terminal performance when you hit someone cleanly center mass with any pistol bullet is statistically insignificant. Barrier penetration and feed reliability are the only things that really set any two bullets apart in a given caliber.
Also cars are scary and you should be prepared to fight them.
Eli Flores
Thanks for that, I guess, but you still didn't explain your reasoning for selecting 124 NATO over other types of 9mm.
I don't care how many mags you have, just explain the logic behind your ammo choice. Why NATO over HSTs or Gold Dots or Extreme Defenders or ?
Isaac Hall
HEI high sensitivity fuse. Foot and a half-diameter permanent cavity in the middle of your chest.
Assuming only stuff that is widely available now, I guess FMJ. People should be using FMJ in calibers like .380, .32, .22 anyway they just don't know it.
Alexander Myers
I did I said helps for vehicles as well, IE windshields, to include my own. I didn't select it over other types, it's an option I have. The Gold Dots are my primary. I don't carry the NATO mag on me it stays in the car
Gabriel Scott
>Because terminal performance is worthless if you don't hit.
And you really think that you have a big chance of needing to shoot through auto glass in a defensive situation? My thoughts are that if we want to talk statistics, the need to shoot through glass (for a civvie) is insignifiant, whereas the difference in bullet performance is bigger.
That said, I appreciate your reply, you've clearly thought it out so I appreciate your opinion.
Nolan Bell
>the need to shoot through glass (for a civvie) is insignifiant
So you'd roll down the windows before shooting if you're getting carjacked?
Eli Torres
>. I didn't select it over other types Sure you did. You just said you put it in your car. So why not put a mag full of in the car instead? Did you pick it specifically because you thought you might need to penetrate barriers? Or was there no particular thought given to it and that's what you happen to have?
Jaxon Roberts
Wasn't there the guy that was in the car with his dad, and they got shot at and chased off the road? The car rolled. He pulled out his gun and shot the guy as he came up on them from inside the car. Road rage is very real.
Juan Taylor
If the door is between me and the carjacker then how exactly am I in fear for my life?
Matthew Garcia
user you are pretty dense I stated twice for vehicles, windshield penetration as a just in case BACKUP to gold dots. I didn't choose it over anything, as my secondary spare mag is still gold dots, the NATO is a luxury add on.
Nathaniel Reyes
There is no consistently measurable difference in bullet performance on people.
Seriously watch out for cars man, everyone has one and some of them might want you dead. If you've got a 9mm loaded with the 65 grain velocity meme and a dude comes at you with a Honda he's gonna win.
Blake Green
fmj lol
William Williams
I hadn't heard of that story, but I'm sure it happened.
Do you think those kind of situations happen often enough for it to be worth considering? Look at it this way: better terminal effect applies to every defensive shot you might take. Needing to accurately penetrate glass happens how often? Give me a number. I bet it's lower than 100%.
Aiden Green
Because he's pointing a strap at your dome
Aaron Thompson
>good hinting round is not necessarily a good defense round Why is that? You would think a round meant for taking out large animals would be good for stopping a human attacker.
Kayden Young
>I didn't choose it over anything, as my secondary spare mag is still gold dots, the NATO is a luxury add on. OK then, if you want to use different words:
Why'd you pick 124NATO for your luxury backup? Was it what you had lying around or did you have a reason to select it for your backup?
Luis Cox
"Better terminal effect" literally never applies. Find me the guy shot in the chest with a hollow point who would have lived if he'd been shot with ball.
Austin Wood
I carry fmj target loads. Does the same shit as the hollow points as far as pistols go. I've seen it irl so don't care who disagrees with me. Caliber also doesnt matter from 32acp to 10mm.
Adam Lee
Keked and checked.
I used to carry wadcutters in my model 36 .38. Felt pretty good about them. Other than that single gun, that i dont even own anymore, I carry nothing but JHPs.
Christian Adams
>There is no consistently measurable difference in bullet performance on people. Have a source? Street Stoppers seems to disagree.
Nathan Martin
Are you a self-driving Tesla AI trying to clear the way for your global takeover?
Sebastian Campbell
Just calculated and a pure lead 0.312" cylinder of 250gr would be 1.14" long -- of course lube grooves, hollow bases, etc. all make it longer rather than shorter.
You couldn't seat it more-or-less flush with the case mouth like typical wadcutter loads, but it definitely could work.
Adam Ortiz
And? He can have the car. That's what insurance is for. Besides, good luck figuring out how to drive my truck which has an unsyncronized manual trans.
Nathaniel Cox
No, I'm a human being wondering why it's so hard to get an answer to such a simple question.
Brayden Phillips
Well, my carry pistol is chambered in .32acp, so yeah, I only run FMJ.
It depends on the situation, really, .380 or smaller, I'll choose fmj, 9mm and up, jhp.
In some cases, fmj could be interesting in bigger calibers, like .45acp.
Nicholas Kelly
Marshall and Snow can take their imaginary goats and their check from CorBon and fuck off.
Joshua Gutierrez
The answer is glass, wood, and occasionally sheet metal.
Jordan Watson
The chances of needing your gun are statistically irrelevant, yet I carry daily. I've never come close to drawing. In that case, my gun acts as a safety net. In the rare chance that I need it, it's unlikely that effectiveness would come down to bullet type. Statistics show .380 and .32 are reliable man stoppers, aim COM and keep going until they drop. The biggest reason not to use FMJ isn't a lack of effectiveness, but the risk of over penetration. As that user printed out, sometimes greater penetration is desirable to defeat light cover. Do I see myself shooting a dude through my windshield? No. But I also understand 124gr NATO isn't range ammo, it's made to kill and will do just that if you do your part.
Basically for high velocity pistol calibers XD Performance in actual animal flesh proved superior to what it's gel testing would indicate, offered excellent barrier penetration(5% degradation), and was described as "the most reliable and consistent round tested: (since it doesn't rely on tumbling or expansion which can in some cases fail to occur. The testing was done by alphabet agencies and made public with names of agencies and individual removed and distributed to law enforcement.
Jack Stewart
255 grain SWC will kill just as good as any fancy ammo. Saw a guy at work a few years ago get hit in the chest with a nail gun, he didn’t even make it to the hospital. So if a 2 inch nail going less than 150 feet per second can one shot a full grown man, literally anything can kill you.
Shit I miss that old Jow Forums meme with a clay test of those meme 5.7 rounds that would break apart into three pieces with the >WOUND VECTORS text over it, but lost it probably 3 hard drives ago
Alexander Cruz
>alternating magazines why not just alternate bullets user
>current year >not producing your own hollow point ammo from FMJ and a drill press
Works great for .45 ACP
———————————————— “Napalm sticks to kids.”
Air Cav 1/9 Crew chief 66-69
Levi Smith
Let's hear it for R.I.P. ammo
Anthony Cook
May ask what your carry gun is? I'm fascinated by the .32 ACP caliber and some of the famous guns chambered for it. People seem to absolutely love not only their KelTec P32s, but also older guns like the Colt 1903 Pocket Hammerless. Hell, I've read of more than one person who conceal carries a Colt 1903 Hammerless. People who have owned high quality reliable .32 ACP guns seem to fall in love with them.
Sebastian Jenkins
This is some grade A bullshit speculation on the part of the author completely unsupported by any data, and in fact directly in contravention to the data he cites.
Easton Ward
i hated reloading those. gunked up my gun, i had to wear gloves, gunked up my magazines, collect debris like hair, and what ever you have in your tumbler. they leave wet lead spot on the plastic ammo boxes. just, not for me. cheap though.
Jack Hernandez
and now i'm convinced
Joseph Taylor
You didn't even read what you posted though.
>At a velocity of 1673 feet per second the volume of macroscopically injured muscle was only slightly larger than the diameter of the bullet.
>At 3200 feet per second the volume of devitalized muscle was seen to be 20 to 30 times the volume of the permanent cavity.
>In the author's experience, for hunting bullets the critical velocity appears to be between 1500 and 2000 ft/sec.
Yeah, if a bullet approaches ~2000 fps (most other sources I've read say 2200 to 2500) then the pressure generated by the bullet crushing flesh will be sufficient to overcome skin/muscle elasticity and will create a wider permanent wound channel.
The issue here is that almost all defensive handgun calibers do not reach these velocities. Even 357 Sig only gets up to 1500 fps. Thus the permanent wound channel will only be as wide as the bullet / expanded bullet. The temporary stretch cavity will not result in increased damage.
Lincoln Peterson
I'm really iffy about that PDF.
It's well known that bullets below rifle velocity don't create enough pressure for the stretch cavity to tear and cause additional damage.
But they're saying that the Underwood Xtreme Defense ammo accomplishes this secondary wounding by directing compressed crushed tissue into adjacent tissue.
>The radial flutes increase tissue pressure and direct the tissue outward to increase wound diameter.
>Many of our testers wondered if vectoring real compressed tissue sideways into tissue would actually destroy that adjacent tissue that is not directly in the path of the projectile. For those who think this will only work in a non-compressible fluid like gel as we initially did, we can confirm that this technology works extremely well in actual animal tissue with or without barriers. Remember that hollow points expand because tissue which fills the hole in the hollow point is compressed to such a point that the outward pressure inside the bullet pushes and tears the metal and forces it outward where friction then takes over to complete the expansion. If tissue can be compressed to the point of tearing metal (hollow point) then tissue can certainly be compressed to the point of tearing tissue. The Phase 4/5 tissue tests confirmed that in over 100 shots the measured wound channel was not only larger than that of an FMJ but in most cases was the largest wound channel produced in that caliber compared to all other rounds to include fully functioning hollow points.
This just sounds extremely implausible to me. My bullshit meter is going off. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if this is a legitimate FBI produced document that was then edited by Underwood fans and used to trump up sales.
I don't think the whole document is fake. I think some of it doesn't pass the sniff test. Obviously these would make the IDEAL self defense rounds, and as indicated by this alleged testing, literally the best carry ammo you can buy.
Blake Brown
Continued:
The document shows that Underwood XD ammo is literally the best defensive handgun round you can buy and outperforms everything else in reliably creating large permanent wound cavities.
You know what? If that's true, every single SWAT team in the country would be stocking up. The FBI would be stocking up. Underwood would become a brand every single person would know. Hollowpoints would fall out of fashion. It would be Underwood XD or bust.
Is that happening?
Adam Howard
>we should use figures from FMJ and BBs to predict performance of HP/SP bullets >suggesting all bullets aren't basically the same is grade A bullshit okay retard
>missing the point this hard Is 1500 to 2000 fps lower than 2200 fps, or isn't it? >(most other sources I've read say 2200 to 2500) In regards to what projectile shape and construction? There's not one threshold for all bullets. Anyone who claims there is probably wants to sell you some slow ammo.
>Even 357 Sig only gets up to 1500 fps Really? Because it goes faster than that in my gun.
>We should use literally no data or figures at all to speculate on the performance of HP/SP bullets and just assume that they can achieve the same effects with half the speed and a quarter of the energy because they are magic
TL;DR: If you suspect the report is altered, buy a box of ammo and some meat, and prove it false yourself.
I'm a little surprised you're challenging the authenticity of the results, rather than the validity of dead-meat testing to predict wounding in live tissue. The latter is really a very reasonable criticism, but unfortunately it's a case of what tests can be practically performed.
There's four types of tests. >ballistics gel Highly repeatable Good representation of "typical" live tissue for determining penetration (which is mainly governed by inertia, not strength) Terrible representation of live tissue for permanent cavity because of totally different strength/elasticity. >dead meat Moderately repeatable Dubious representation of live tissue >live captive animal Moderately repeatable at best Perfect representation of live tissue >live wild animal (hunting) No repeatability Perfect representation of live tissue
Results from shooting livestock simply aren't practical to produce and share because of PETA etc.
Hunting videos are out there, but because there's no repeatability, there's no scientific/"expert" interpretation criteria -- and that means discussion always devolves into "Whoa that's a lotta damage" vs "Nah, I've seen more damage than that".
As for the remaining two (gel and meat), they're both decently repeatable, and the "Joint Agency Ballistics Test" PDF lists results for both that anyone can try to replicate. If it's made up, how come neither you nor anyone else has done the same tests, got substantially different results, and thereby debunked it? How come it's in pretty close agreement to independent replication attempts like JohnG's here: thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/joint-agency-ballistics-test-for-defensive-handgun-ammo.844285/page-4#post-11048131 (and following posts) But maybe JohnG is the dishonest Underwood fanboy you accuse of modifying this document? If so, get out there and prove him wrong...
Parker Sanchez
I am skeptical as well as of the performance however you have to keep in mind that traditional hollow point technology has been around for a long time and is proven.
It's hard to make someone switch to a new type of technology that may or may not be better than what you already have know and trust. See 1950's US Ordinance corps.
I do believe it certainly has merit and does work quite well for what it is.
Well, the point of this .22 TCM project is threefold. 1st, .22 TCM strikes me as a silly cartridge in full size guns. Fun to shoot with its negligible recoil, but fundamentally silly, because light-loaded 9mm already reduces recoil as much as I could make any case for. Whereas in pocket pistols, .22 TCM could actually serve a real purpose -- I'm thinking it can use a reduced-force recoil spring, making it easy to rack and easy to shoot. So on one level building this gun (and letting various women and children shoot it and see what they think) is an experiment to see if this cartridge can be given a credible purpose. 2nd, this is about making myself a semi-auto pistol barrel from a rifled barrel blank. Probably going to have to grind up a special tool to mill the cam slot in the lug... should be fun. 3rd, this is about having a unique gun that nobody else in the world has one quite like.
.357sig defeats point #1, and any off-the-shelf barrel defeats #2 and likely #3.
And if I were choosing on purely pragmatic grounds, I'd carry 9mm Xtreme Defenders year-round. For winter carry, I don't carry .357sig because I think I need the ballistics (lemme tell ya, anything less bounces right off the coyotes around here...); rather, I carry it just 'cause I like it -- mostly, I like bottleneck handgun cartridges, and I like absurd velocities. So for me, .22 TCM scratches the same itch.
Dylan Anderson
>making a .22 TCM barrel for my Glock 48 If you do this, make two, so I can suck your dick in exchange for one.
Kayden James
Look, I would be delighted if Underwood XD ammo worked as well as that document states. It would literally mean we could all carry nice little .32 ACP handguns and feel completely secure.
The mechanism by which the bullets operate seems suspect though. That document states that as the bullet crushes flesh this flesh is then vectored sideways by the four grooves with enough pressure to overcome the elastic capacity of the surrounding flesh and thereby causing secondary tears/rips and thus a larger permanent wound cavity.
Something about this just seems iffy to me. You're basically saying that this bullet creates little water jets of liquefied crushed flesh that are expelled with enough power to cut through adjacent skin like a milling machine water jet.
I really need a physics nerd type to model this with fluid dynamics and prove / disprove it. If it actually works this way, it's literally the biggest game changer in bullet evolution in the last 100 years. It cannot be overstated how immensely incredible these bullets are if they actually work this way. Every single military and police department in the world would use them.
Tyler Ramirez
Sounds good I'm excited to see how it turns out. I love 9x25 Dillon I am hoping to set up a glock 40 soon