Is there any particular reason nato ran from 5.7x28? It’s clearly better than 9mm and even beat out h&k’s contender...

Why spend all that money to reoutfit pistols so bean counters can jizz over the minute min/maxing of stats when 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the time they're never used outside of qualifications?

>He thinks performance is the primary consideration in military/government procurement

Hah, look at this idiot

Because then we could have p90s

>.22 TCM
We know what happened in 5.7 vs 4.6, if you know someone who made direct comparison of .22 TCM with 5.7 then please link it.
Spending is rising due to rising potential of war occurring on European theater.

Ew, why use that garbage over an M4?

Germany got super butthurt over NATO preferring 5.7 and the P90 over 4.6 and the MP7. Besides, 5.7 for all of its pros is also rather expensive, and 9x19 still gets the job done for the vast majority of NATO forces.

Which is why that spending should probably go into actually training your troops better, acquiring enough ordnance to actually deter the invader, etc.

But considering the retardation of politicians and generals you're probably right, they're gonna get a new caliber rather than doing the reasonable thing.

>he doesn't know about the Jaffa

Attached: p90.jpg (969x470, 80K)

>spending lots of money on handguns that no one uses

Technically couldn’t you switch away from m16 derivatives to p90s?

If we cared about our guns being super good at killing people we wouldn’t be using .223. It seems like the US military cares a lot more about weight and cost then killing potential.

And who's going to lower those barriers to entry to get 5.7 down to the same price as 5.56?

>It’s clearly better than 9mm
let me stop you there.

9mm is the cheapest round that still meets the bare minimum of performance
It always boils down to money

Since when do governments care about money?

>clearly better than 9mm

At what?

The only people in the military that use pistols for anything serious are SOF and they tend to use whatever they want.

they shutdown the pdw standardization program.

The government's job is to waste money, the military's job is to make money

Exactly. 5.56 and 9mm are cheap because it's got so much infastructure because the military uses it. In other words it's cheap because the military uses it, not the other way around.

Jeeze dude don't mention that.

Secondary arms are not important enough for military to spend a lot of money on them. 9 mm is cheap, mass produced and there are plenty of handguns chambered in it.

Because of German interference.

God I hate 5.7 shills
>Muh stoppan powah!
By your own admission it's less than 5.56. explain to me how having a lighter round with less powder behind it makes it more powerful. Please.
>Muh penetration!
Two things.
One, it's not. 5.56 black tip is as good and better than 5.7
Two, even if it was, we're not throwing down with armies wearing modern armor. We're shooting hajis. Drilling clean, high-penetration holes through them is the opposite of what we need. Couple that with 5.7s lower energy and it's even more fucked.
>But muh ammo compatibility!
You'd have a point if the FiveSeven shared mags with P90s. It doesn't. You're gimping your main combat rifle so it can share a supply chain with a pistol.
>But it was so cool in Stargate!
Yes, yes it was. Be honest with yourself, that's why you want one. That's why I want one.

Attached: Blank+_2ce49edb069a597a481120367619abfb.jpg (655x252, 26K)

>it’s clearly better

Lmfao no its not. Maybe better at being cheaper that’s it. Smaller, weaker bullets are never “better” and it’s good we didn’t adopt that shit round.

The only retarded one is you, for comparing a pistol caliber against an intermediate/rifle caliber.

Attached: autism.jpg (900x675, 223K)

>It’s clearly better than 9mm

[citation needed]

>9mmlets
5.7x28 has higher capacity, less recoil, can pierce IIIA body armor, lighter, and theoretically cheaper. Stay mad.

Are you retarded?
>Pistol caliber isn't as good as rifle!
>It's also not as good as rifle caliber with armor piercing ammo!
Ok retard, nobody is arguing that.

>If we cared about our guns being super good at killing people we wouldn’t be using .223

Attached: 556.png (679x518, 721K)

About twice the velocity of 9mm, smaller diameter, far greater armor-piercing ability, etc.

5.7x26mm delivers only about 30 less Joules to the target, and has around twice the velocity of 9mm, it's barely weaker.

458 socom was made because 223 wasn’t good enough at killing people.

Attached: 1523575087859.jpg (159x199, 9K)

It's smaller, lighter, and holds more ammo. Plus it's not like it replaces infantry rifles, just vehicle crews and spec ops.

>that's why you want one

No, I want one so I can spray the 50 round mags everywhere

The 50 round mags are a definite plus

Or just use a smg/carbine that uses standard ammo instead of splintering logistics for a stupid reason so you can get 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% increased performance out of a different type of bullet.

>can pierce IIIA body armor
not really. not really relevant either when you're fighting unarmored targets. if you are, you don't pick a 5.7 you take a rifle round.
>capacity and power
doesn't matter in a sidearm. it's objectively worse at everything else in its smg form compared to a normal carbine .223.

>not really
During testing it did.
>not really relevant either when you're fighting unarmored targets
It’s comparable to 9mm in power except it has less recoil, weighs less, and has a higher capacity.
>you don't pick a 5.7 you take a rifle round.
Fair enough, I would definitely rather have a .308 than a 5.7x28 for home defense and whatnot. For a soldier especially one not on the frontlines, the weight advantage might actually be worth it.
>doesn't matter in a sidearm
Weight does, and the other stuff is icing on the cake.
>it's objectively worse at everything else in its smg form compared to a normal carbine .223
Except for weight, capacity, maneuverability, and recoil. And you have the same bullets for your sidearm and primary.

Do you really blame the Germans though? They lost to the fucking French ,its worst thing in Hans mind. The French may be close to a failed state now but the were once formidable.

Germans always have to ruin everything don’t they?

this. i asked myself the same question today OP. then i googled it.

The round needs to be adopted to be cheap but to be cheap it needs adopted but to be adopted it needs to be cheap but to be cheap it needs adopted but to be adopted it needs to be cheap but to be cheap it needs adopted but to be adopted it needs to be cheap but to be cheap it needs adopted but to be adopted it needs to be cheap but to be cheap it needs adopted but to be adopted it needs to be cheap but to be cheap it needs adopted but to be adopted it needs to be cheap but to be cheap it needs adopted but to be adopted it needs to be cheap but to be cheap it needs adopted but to be adopted it needs to be cheap but to be cheap it needs adopted but to be adopted it needs to be cheap but to be cheap it needs adopted but to be adopted it needs to be cheap but to be cheap it needs adopted but to be adopted it needs to be cheap but to be cheap it needs adopted but to be adopted it needs to be cheap.

What a lot of people forget to consider is that 5.7 tumbles and does more damage than I had expected. The ss198's projectile is 0.75" long and tumbles immediately.

Attached: IMG_4115.jpg (2500x1404, 2.12M)

Because if they want an armor piercing round. They'll use a rifle.
If they don't, they'll use a pistol round

>5.56 is as good or better than 5.7
>a rifle round is as good or better than a pistol round
holy shit
>also, not related to dumb fuck
the civilian market rounds are regulated, cheap 5.7 is like .34 cpr, and expensive 5.7 is like .70crp. Germany not taking the big W is fucking me out of cheap and plentiful 5.7, so, i'm gonna seek out other markets. i cant afford to shoot that shit. the fucking FN 5.7 has a 20 round mag, thats $10 a magazine to fill it. fucking hell, i stopped bitching about .380 acp being more expensive than 9mm all together. not being the product of a parent case, i understand there will be some mark-up, but ffs, thats expensive. not to mention the good shit i cant buy because of the fucking ATF.

Yes moron. Round capacity

This

People arent raccoons.

People are 90-97% raccoon.

it was all based around the concept of rear-echelon troops needing to fight armored soldiers in some future conflict.

If shit gets so fucked that cooks are having to fight off the enemy, a 1/2lb lighter rifle that cost billions to implement isn't going to do them any good by that point. Just keep issuing them carbines and keep the dumb fucks in supply happy with fewer variables. Also taxpayers.

post source

Agreed, raccoons are probably tougher than most people.

D-Did you full auto that thing ?

>T. never processed small game
You can pull them apart easily with your hands.

I'm not sure if this was mentioned yet, but 5.7 is half the weight of 9mm. A big advantage giving you the option of higher capacity loadouts, or weight savings.

youtu.be/vLCsQkEL9eQ

youtu.be/-l7yXBaxu3I

First vid shows 22tcm penetrating 3a body armor while 5.7mm does not. Second video shows 22tcm penetrating 3 jugs of water, while 5.7mm penetrates 2 jugs.

more rounds, less recoil, pierces soft body armor

if it wasnt for the cost, i think more people would have swapped

Simplest and best answer

looks like I know what I'm doing for the next 17 minutes

> pull them apart
dear retard, I challenge you to pull a live adult raccoon apart and get back to us. post some pics for the lulz.
I'm the guy that is busy shooting them and posting results. Some calibers are better than others. 5.7 impressed me. 9mm and 300blk have not. 5.45 is a mad man.

Attached: IMG_4118.jpg (2790x2043, 3.09M)

>dear retard, I challenge you to pull a live adult raccoon apart
>a live adult raccoon
That was exactly what i was talking about
>Some calibers are better than others. 5.7 impressed me. 9mm and 300blk have not. 5.45 is a mad man.
Loadings, distances, BBl lengths, etc.

You having better effect on target with ?!?!? 5.7 loading from ?!?!?! gun vs ?!?!?!?! 9mm/.300 BO loading from ??!?! guns with ?!?!?! sample size at !?!?!? distance isn't exactly a persuasive argument for it being a better cartridge in general.

>9mm have not.
Have you tried 9mm XDs? I've only used XDs a handful of times so far, but I like what I'm seeing.

>our ribs on the back have some sideways holes in them

Attached: 1553727737728.jpg (500x740, 107K)

FN herstal gets burned by politics so much. They built an expensive new bullet, it gets shut down by Germany. They try to sell these products in the civilian marketplace, no go. Media outrage at “cop killer” bullets bans all but crappy ones from the market. How horrible.

The P90 is a massive hunk of Chinese potmetal looking shit, the gun was tested by multiple SWAT units and basically chucked in the trash because "What good is 50 rounds when you need to use half of them to stop a threat" and the FiveSeven is just as much a astic and pot metal hunk of shit at a 700% markup LIKE EVERYTHING THEY MAKE
Fuck FN

>Plastic lower
>Aluminum square tube upper
>$3000

Uh source?

M2. M240B, Mk.48, M249... most of the m4s currently issued...

>everything they make is shit.

Attached: 23F15107-6CAB-4173-9B32-01A06A07418F.jpg (228x320, 21K)

>A legacy design and guns designed by two of the most gifted firearms godfathers in history.

>doesn’t explain how they’re shit, just old.

Dude, toilet designs haven’t changed in more than 50 years because they work. Just because it’s old doesn’t mean it’s crap . Millennials are duuuuuumb.

I'm saying those are good because they're old and well vetted, and also not designed by FNs current shit show.

Their modern guns suck.

>Their modern guns suck
All of their modern firearms are at the very least competent, and some of them are fantastic.

List

A place in hell for the human scum that made this

suck a dick, faggot.
The raccoon was spotted near my chicken coop.

>Comparing rifle and pistol calibers and then bitching that the pistol caliber is weaker
Holy fuck you're dumb

Yeah, PDWs are dumb.

>SS197SR

Just ask literally anybody who has used them seriously. No rifle like massive wounding or effect on target, paired with a smaller expanded diameter than common handgun rounds. There's a reason you only ever see Spec Ops types using them as suppressed sidearms, they're good for little more than super quiet sentry removal(using subsonic ammo, or other super niche situations, practically speaking.
pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4338-Small-Caliber-PDW-s-FN-5-7-mm-HK-4-6-mm&s=eba77baac756bb37980380acee03d91d
>LMAO, who's that guy
Doctor gary roberts, MD and renowned ballistics experts to anybody familiar with the field. Got a better source then feel free to cite them.

the idea of a weapon more compact than a carbine, but still piercing soft armor, for people who need something bigger than a pistol but smaller than a rifle is not a bad one

is that you based schizo bro

Belgium motherfucker

Crewmen carry m4s though, they don't carry pistols and they don't carry SMGs, so it's irrelevant and at some point you're getting diminishing returns by going lighter and lighter for no reason. If these guys had to actually fight with their weapons they'd be at a huge disadvantage due to those PDWs that would have been mitigated by giving them an M4.

>speaks French
>gets invaded by Germany routinely
>"French" fries are actually Belgian
>Are secretly just Germans pretending to be Latin because we wuz Romanz n sheeit

France and Belgium are literally the same thing, change my mind.

I disagree for a non-frontline troop weight matters even less. If you're not humping with it, they should be trying to make an Infantryman's kit lighter, not a rear esch or someone who'd driving around and gonna set their shit down anyway.

fortscottmunitions.com/

>No rifle like massive wounding or effect on target, paired with a smaller expanded diameter than common handgun rounds.

youtube.com/watch?v=T6kUvi72s0Y

You are now aware that 5.7 and 4.6 are meant to be fired from PDW instead of pistols because they achieve the velocity required for remote wounding, traditional pistol rounds need expansion because they do not have the velocity to overcome the elasticity of human tissue.

Cost

>Crewmen carry m4s though, they don't carry pistols and they don't carry SMGs

The APC9K is the first SMG the US Army has bought since WW2.