Why are males always the initiators physically?
For example when I got on dates men always try to touch me at the end of the date even when I tell them several times that I'm unable to get aroused unless I'm the initiator they always 'forget'.
In't it a basically marketing idea that any resource that's easily available is not as desired? So why do men think it's a good idea to be so desperate?
MGTOW feel free to reply.
This is certainly an original post.
Shameless self bump to start us off here.
A lot of men seem to be pretty helpless to their carnal desires. Men have a very basic and primal need to go out into the world and spread their seed by whatever means necessary. Furthermore, men who are now adults having sex were not taught back in the day to keep their hands to themselves
Are you retarded? The vast majority of women want men to initiate things. I've literally been made fun of, by girls, for not doing that.
I feel like you're missing OPs point, that when she says no, men completely don't listen and try to initiate anyway
I agree that literally a double-digit number of men have completely ruined their chances with me by getting pushy or perverted when I told them not to. If a single man out there would just be calm, not say a bunch of perverted shit, or try to pressure me into things, instead letting me take control, he'd get laid everyday. but every man, before ever getting a chance to meet up, gets gross over text messages and i end up cancelling due to feeling unsafe.
Wish I could tell you how much I feel what you wrote here.
you just did, sister
glad i'm not the only one, though, seriously. it almost makes me feel like a bitch to turn guys down when they show sexual interest in an overt, pushy way, but fuck em if they can't respect clear boundaries
I'm pretty sure in real life they get scared of me at this point. I'll just look them right in the eyes and ask if they are gonna rape me. They look so taken aback and scared. All you have to do is act like a psycho to not get raped. It's that simple.
I mean if they start hitting on me. I just ask 'oh are you trying to rape me?' and they get so fucking scared. But it's the only way I can relay the information to them that I'm not in the mood. Lol. It's a strong way to do it but oh well. These pussies need to get stronger.
some guys are just creepy. i wake up horny, go about my day horny, and go to sleep horny but never had the desire to go around touching people. ill be at the gym and see like 3 guys approach a girl working out and try to spot them and I myself get weirded out.
Not that guy, but that kind of behavior is weird. I'd ask the same girl twice, on two separate occasions. If there's nothing, I'd fuck off and try another girl. Once, she could be shy or doesn't put out when first asked. After the second time, it isn't worth the energy.
If a woman says she needs to be the one to initiate, you asking her instantly ruins your chances to get with her, ever
>i wake up horny, go about my day horny, and go to sleep horny but never had the desire to go around touching people
me.
To clarify, I'd just ask. Not initiate contact unless I'm 100% sure she's ok with it
That's not true retard. Always ask so she can tell you what's up. Communication is key dumb fucks.
guys are pushy because a lot of women expect us to be pushy. i dont know how many times ive seen women say that guys should be upfront with what they want. the only other option is to go down the friendly route and that is almost always a fucking disaster, youd just complain that hes being manipulative. there is no way to win here.
A woman telling you that she needs to be the one to initiate IS the communication. When you get pushy, we immediately lose interest. Obviously in 98% of cases, with women who are fine with men initiating, this won't be an issue. But when someone tells you to not be pushy and you get pushy, that is the opposite of communication
How did it work for me, then
>youd just complain that hes being manipulative
Nice guys exist. Dudes who will invest a lot of time in you and try to be your ''''''''friend'''''' but get angry as fuck you wont give it up. Yea cos that's NOT being manipulative?
Or perhaps you all have intimacy issues and fear not being "in control". It isn't men, you're just defective but your confused minds think the men acting like men are what's wrong. If you wanted a submissive guy, you'd have one.
True, but I'd suggest more men need to just listen. If a woman doesn't say anything, obviously be the one to initiate, be pushy even, it's fine. But when a woman specifically says they don't like when men try to initiate things, you ignoring them and doing it anywhere is the quickest and easiest way to ensure that her pussy makes the Windows shutdown noise and you never get laid
Speaking about what you want isn't the same as being pushy though?
She obviously didn't mean it, then. Or made an exception for you. And that's legitimately wonderful. But for the women who legitimately do need to be the ones who initiate things, that's not going to work.
If a woman asks you not to, and you do anyway, it's being pushy. Obviously you aren't this way so I don't expect you to understand, but for some people, when potential sexual partners act this way, it's a major turnoff. So if a woman says "don't get pervy and just let me initiate things", if she means it, you either have to listen to that or not get laid
>If you wanted a submissive guy, you'd have one.
Why do you think that? Submissive men are not common.
Cool. I mean, if I asked a girl and she outright said/implied "not a chance ", I'd just ask once. Otherwise, I'd ask the second time then fuck off if need be
>Submissive men are not common.
More like they don't exist to you because you don't actually want one.
im not getting into this dumb fucking debate again. i think youre just looking for a unicorn
i dont think you know what you want. are you picking up the slack if you dont want the guy being pushy? if you arent then dont be surprised if guys just ghost you because its not worth the effort figuring out what the fuck you want
I'd kill to date somebody like you, OP. I hate having to figure out when is a good time to initiate these things, and a girl explicitly telling me at the beginning of a dating experience "don't initiate any physical stuff, I'll initiate it myself when I'm ready" would take a fucking load off my back.
It is such a pain in the ass to be expected to read the minds of the women I'm attracted to in order to figure out when and where they want to be touched. It took me until I was 22 to lose my virginity despite dating since I was 18 just because I was too autistic to "just read body language bro", and I would end up boring every girl I was with or making her think she didn't like me. All because I didn't initiate anything physical without obvious signs being put in front of me, and girls NEVER initiated anything by themselves.
That pretty much means you've got an extremely uncommon personality, as a female. And a lot of low IQ guys either can't read non-verbal cues at all, or just don't actually empathize with you to begin with (seeing you as a hook-up or "experiment," rather than someone who actually has a mind of their own)
Mother Nature can be stupid at times
idk it's as if culture and society has been trying to brainwash us about men being the ones that should engage and initiate and/or push forward or something and if you don't then you're not truly a man
I remember when I had my first gf I was constantly trying to push myself to be the one to start hugs and stuff, even though I truly wanted her to do it, but then a few seconds pass and I'm like 'wait what if she wants me to do it?!' and I did it
MGTOW here I don't give a fuck. women don't care about male issues so why should I care about female issues?
It's called instinct. It's the way male/female interactions naturally progress.
If a girl told me that I'd assume she's testing my betaness.
I don't think it's because they're not common, but it's more about not getting as much spotlight as the histrionic shits you see on TV or news
>posters who can't see blatant "not like the other girls" syndrome in their face
Imagine the disappointment when submissive guys don't resemble the "shy" chads of their fantasies.
My hypothesis is that culture is based on an agreed consensus (usually among normalscum) about what is socially acceptable and what is taboo. A lot of them like the thrill of acting like animals, and those who don't are considered "weird."
I'm aware of that, user. We're basically just the result of two beta-tards "settling" for the sake of their own conformity
Why does your "need" to initiate carry any more weight than any guy's "needs"? What if he "needs" you to wear a butt plug all day to get aroused? Or what if he says the same thing -- he "needs" to be the initiator to get aroused? I'd bet at least some of these guys get aroused by taking the first step and seeing a girl respond, get aroused, submit, whatever.
Honestly this sounds more like a dom/sub issue that you've got than a problem that men have. You need things to be a certain way to get aroused. You should tell them that directly, then watch most of them lose interest. (Surely some will stick around and be into it.)
If you don't like the idea of telling them directly, have your friend pull the guy aside and say, "Hey user, I hear you and femanon are going out on a date. Wanna know what really gets her hot? Play hard to get. When you want to kiss her, don't go for it. Just hang back. I know it sounds weird, but trust me. She WILL respond, and you'll have a fucking great time. Trust. Me."
If someone told me some version of that, I'd still find it a bit weird but would at least consider trying it out.
it's silly to think that we're not animals and still act on a lot of animalistic instincts/urges, though
of course you as a human can fight them, that's what separates us from the rest of the mammals, but it doesn't mean they're not there still and that they don't seem extremely alluring most of the time
but that's definitely what society is about, it's the whole purpose of society, even, because a civilization needs such standards to be set to move forward
but we're kinda deviating from OP's point here
What you think is you telling them, is probably not at all. Do you literally say 'please don't talk perverted at the moment' or do you just go silent. Becuase there's a huge difference. Women think they're giving obvious signs when they're not.
ALl this comes down to how girls are. If you don't make moves on them they'll completely go off you. It happens all the time. That is almost worse than being rejected at the start. Because you had a chance but you didn't know, and now they've gone off with another guy. That is why guys jump the gun. Better to make a move and be rebuffed, than not make a move and be nexted
Fuck off someone else fucking lithuanian faggot.
this
most women expect men 'to just know' when to do or not to do things, like they're mind readers or something
especially over texts, because then the guy can't even read the woman's face, it's all just guesses and blind shots
>idk it's as if culture and society has been trying to brainwash us about men being the ones that should engage and initiate and/or push forward or something and if you don't then you're not truly a man
Made me think of this
All of this is very true indeed
nah, it's more of a 50/50 kind of deal
racism is the perfect example, infants are always racist because their instincts didn't have the time to be squashed by the parents' culture/education
though to say that all cultures share the same instincts is a silly thing as well, the earth is a big place and our ancestors didn't have to rely on the same instincts to survive depending on where they lived, which is why there are so many different cultures and cultures so different in the first place (though there are other variables playing in this as well)
>If a girl told me that I'd assume she's testing my betaness.
But I'm not testing I'm the girl opposite version of this guy:
When he says this:
>a girl explicitly telling me at the beginning of a dating experience "don't initiate any physical stuff, I'll initiate it myself when I'm ready" would take a fucking load off my back.
>would take a fucking load off my back.
I believe him and that's the kind of guy I want to find. Where we can both relax around each other.
>You need things to be a certain way to get aroused.
I already said in my original post that I tell every single one that I need to initiate....
Did you read it?
>then watch most of them lose interest
The why do they try to touch me still? This is common out of hundreds and hundreds of first and second dates.
>If you don't like the idea of telling them directly
I do tell them directly.
Sorry. I won't bring it up again
I do this:
Also tell them I have pepper spray (which I carry everywhere I go), a knife or gun too (a lie).
Why go negative though? Why not say, 'I'm really into that,' or be chill. The guy is in a way being positive, complimenting you by trying to have sex with you. Why treat it like an insult, get serious and be mad? that always bothers me
>I like being the one to initiate
>omg don't touch me
>are you trying to rape me
>and they get so fucking scared
>Lol these pussies need to get stronger
Are you one of those 'femdom doujin heroine that's not actually a dom and is waiting for a guy with a cock big enough to rape my womb so I can submit to him for the rest of my life' or something?
Just what the fuck is even going on in that head of yours
I'm *not really into that
If I've already told him I need to initiate I'm going to get mad every time. Sorry I don't care about your feelings. You might be used to your mommy spoon feeding you everything but I'm not her. It's not my job to take care of your feelings.
Yea if I like to initiate that means don't touch me. Which part is difficult for you to understand honny, maybe I can draw a chart for you.
Why u mad now?
I bet you don't say that
I'm not, I'm explaining how I think. Guys who can't take no for an answer always seem super spoiled.
you probably never initiate anyway.
Don't say what? Lol. I'm autistically up front with people.
This
Women don't actually know what they want. Going off of advice from women is useless because what they say is clouded in their emotions.
They're not spoiled. They know that its always going to be 'no' at first and eventually it'll happen with persistence. That's why no man is part of #metoo. Every girl you fuck stroy could be tweaked to look terrible and coercive in an online blog .
If a guy just waited for you to initiate, you never would, it would turn into friends.
So why should they give a damn about what you want? They're not your daddy, princess.
>That's why no man is part of #metoo
What?
Are we going down the men can't be raped rabbit hole. Men can be raped/molested/sexually violated and a part of the #metoo movement. So fuck right off.
You're obviously not getting the point across. Maybe it's however many guys we're talking about all having the same problem. Or maybe it's you -- specifically, the way you're telling them. At what point do you bring it up? How exactly do you say it?
You could also learn from this thread. Your behavior is confusing as hell for multiple guys. Many are telling you exactly the kind of things going through the guy's head -- I like taking the first step with girls, I don't want to miss my chance, other girls said I was too passive, etc. They're not insulting you, they're trying to help and to understand. You're the one who is keeping everyone confused. You.
Anyway, why not just take my advice and trick the guys into doing what you want? It can be done and will probably work better than your current method.
>It's not my job to take care of your feelings
then it's not theirs either
relationships are a discussion, a dance, there needs to be two people in there or else it's not a relationship
funny you'd call men super spoiled while acting so entitled
>Submissive men are not common.
Right.
The issue is that most 'submissive' men are still shitty people outside of the bedroom. The only submissive men that are desirable are the ones willing to give you everything and lop their balls off for you. Willing to sacrifice everything in every facet of their lives. Most 'sub' men are just douchebags outside of the bedroom and that's not at all hot. So while there are plenty of 'sub' men, they're only selectively sub, really.
I usually say it when we are texting. Exactly how I said it to start the thread. Exactly like that sometimes extra details added in. Something like "When we hang out don't hit on me, I enjoy being the one to initiate or make the first moves." & Things regarding how I like to be in control, sometimes outside of sex too like choosing where we go and what we do as activities.
>trick the guys into doing what you want?
I don't want to 'trick' anyone..... er....
Pretty sure most of us will never hear those words. You are assuming your own hyper-specific situation is relevant to the majority of people, but it is extremely rare. Obviously if someone says they don't want to be bothered I won't bother them, though. This should be common sense at this point, but I guess there are still a lot of pushy people out there. And they're all doing better than I am.
Yea I totally agree here. Pic related. And also it's really fucking hard to find a guy who's submissive in the bedroom AND outside of it too.
And who also legit respects women I meant to add at the end of that. I mean you'd think the respect would be inherently implied but some submissive men are literal misogynists floating around manosphere places.
this sounds romantic and all but why would a man, sub or not, want to do that if the woman isn't worth it?
I'm rather submissive and have been jacking off (literally or figuratively) about the idea of finding that girl I could do all those things for/to, but in the real world it's another deal entirely, especially since if you ever told/implied you'd want to do all of this for her she'd just think of you as creepy or broken and would quickly lose her affection towards you, or about you wanting a co-dependent relationship and that's toxic and has no future and whatever
>have been jacking off (literally or figuratively) about the idea of finding that
Stopped reading there. Read this pic to figure out what your problem is: No one gives a single fuck what you are jacking off to is the problem. Submissive men still see woman as nothing but fetish dispensaries. Not people. In that way they are the exact same as disgusting male doms.
Jesus, what a fantasy world you live in. It's gonna smart like a bitch when your ass hits concrete.
Most guys assume it's shit testing to see if you're manly enough to overwhelm her inhibitions. Girls will on occasion say the opposite of what they mean to shit test the guy to see if he's worthy or if he loves her.
holy normie, where the fuck do you think you are
I'm not hitting on you and we have nothing to do together you dumbfuck, I'm saying that I've been jacking off to hentai literally and figuratively to novels and shit where the gender roles are reversed aka heart boners because it has importance in the way I think and what I'm talking about, not because it's my fucking fetish
just how the fuck did you even end up on this site?
no wonder you sound so fucking entitled all the time, you don't even bother trying to understand what other people say
wouldn't surprise me if you were that way IRL as well, back to redd.it with you
>texting
Not the best way to communicate this. A texted request carries only a fraction of the weight of looking someone in the eyes and saying it to their face. Either you're as stereotypically clueless as some here are saying, or you're deliberately avoiding what you know to be the best way to get them to understand you're serious.
>trick
seduce, persuade, entice, call it whatever you want. Also, everyone is trying to trick everyone else, all the time. Ever wear makeup? Ever say you're doing fine when you're not?
I understand the hesitation, but there are absolutely women out there that would be elated and not creeped out by such a situation (myself included). The idea of ultimate and so subversive sacrifice is the hottest and romantic thing, as you say. Especially romantic. I understand having reservations, but when it's right, it's right. I am very codependent myself and have had similar issues in that finding a 'submissive' man is simple, but when it comes to the commitment of an 'extreme' relationship, they back out and think I'm crazy. For me, it's not a 'kinky' creepy thing, it's a romantic thing. it's an "I do this for you" thing, and it's so sweet.
EXACTLY!! That's the issue. These 'sub' males (and I don't particularly identify with this BDSM bullshit, I just want a passive, sweet, innocent boy that is always in my corner and always wants to please me while I nuture him and control him) are literally the exact same token as dom males. The submission ends at orgasm. It's not submissive. I want a man that is so fucking happy to live a female led, but nurturing relationship. Most sub men are just as scuzzy and entitled as doms, albeit just not as physically abusive, but still emotionally abusive just the same. It's so disappointing.
>I'm not hitting on you and we have nothing to do together you dumbfuck
You are expressing an interest in dom women that is what I am and I'm telling you why you'd be unattractive to us. Because you talk about what you jack off to.
Also tayrt again, but you're completely right and don't let these retards make you feel bad. Your assessment is exactly correct.
No I say it irl too.
I don't ever wear make up.
So how do I trick them then?
It's called giving it a shot. No point in letting the chance get away if there is one.
>EXACTLY!! That's the issue. These 'sub' males (and I don't particularly identify with this BDSM bullshit, I just want a passive, sweet, innocent boy that is always in my corner and always wants to please me while I nuture him and control him) are literally the exact same token as dom males. The submission ends at orgasm. It's not submissive. I want a man that is so fucking happy to live a female led, but nurturing relationship. Most sub men are just as scuzzy and entitled as doms, albeit just not as physically abusive, but still emotionally abusive just the same. It's so disappointing.
It's like you are me. Seriously....
I'm not sure you understand.
There are women who do exactly what you do, and then still complain that they didn't ignore what she said and try being pushy.
>There are women who do exactly what you do, and then still complain that they didn't ignore what she said and try being pushy.
I'm serious when I ask this question... can you explain or give examples? I just find that hard to believe. That anyone would tell men not to initiate as some kind of shit test.
>Monster Musume
Larping pervert with no taste. You don't deserve better.
Ikr? I wish I was a lezzie because at this rate, we'll never find guys that grasp this concept and it's like fucking talking to a wall. Truly subversive men are in such short supply. What's fucking annoying is the barrage of "submissive" men wasting our time with faux submissive bullshit that dip emotionally when they cum and care not for the romance or loyalty of such an arrangement.
I don't talk to women the way I discuss things on some anonymous laotian image hosting service, nor do I call other people faggots IRL either, faggot
lurk some moar
>unattractive to us
and a collectivist as well, stop talking in other people's places
not that I care if you're right or wrong, because you definitely don't sound like you're my type anyway
yeah well it's not really written on your forehead that you're looking for a subby kind of guy, is it?
do you have any idea how rare it is to find a girl that thinks that way? do you think it even reaches 10 or even 5%?
and how fucking scary it is to drop it? that's a hundred times worse than the L-bomb, because you don't know whether she's going to like it or not before you say it, and worse yet, more often than not she'll act as if she loved it even though that was the end of your relationship right then and there, for her at least
I just wish I was gay, it would be so much easier to find an assertive and possessive mate
Go date a butch bottom, they'll listen and it's pretty close to a man but with communication skills and better hygiene
You asked this before. More women respond to it than not.
>It's not my job to take care of your feelings.
Actually, if you're on a date with someone else you ARE supposed to be considerate of their feelings. That's how relationships work. I'm not saying you need to do anything you don't want to do, like sex or kissing or whatever, but you should be considerate otherwise why the fuck should they be considerate?
>yeah well it's not really written on your forehead that you're looking for a subby kind of guy, is it?
>do you have any idea how rare it is to find a girl that thinks that way? do you think it even reaches 10 or even 5%?
I suppose it may be uncommon, but I, personally, drop my intentions immediately. I don't have any interest in weebs, however, so this cuts down the dating pool significantly, especially since most 'sub' men are internet weirdos. I don't think for many actually assertive women you'd need to drop the hint yourself. I have issues with this kind of thing myself though because it seems like literally 99% of 'sub' men are into physically larger women that will dominate them in every sense, that is, taller women. I'm quite short and it turns out that I'm not the ideal for the majority of men that are seeking a more dominant partner, so it is a bit unnerving for me, too, because I tend to not be the ideal for most submissive men. Albeit, I will admit, not as unnerving as having to bring up the prospect to most women. Also, a lot of 'submissive' men are super degenerate shit, like, into weird crossdressing or pegging shit and it's a major turn off, so I do relate on the whole "having a very limited dating pool". I like very vanilla passive, innocent boys that want to be kidnapped and cared for by me and only me (and realistically I'm too jealous to actually date men because they aren't as monogamous and committed as I require), and they're nearly impossible to find, so honestly, if you just go on fetlife and shit, you have better prospects than most of us.
I don't doubt it. Thank you for the very reasonable suggestion, user. I respect women far more, but I really am not into vagina. I hate to say it, and it is a very big source of shame for me, but I am visually attracted to penis. I really wish I wasn't.
Do what I said -- get a friend to drop a hint. Or leave out some "private" writing that clearly explains what you're into so he'll read it. It's not even tricking, really. Instead of whatever he's thinking (again, see dozens of comments above for what your words and attitude make guys think), you want him thinking, "Sweet, I know how to make this chick bang me, just have to play it super cool and let her make the first move."
Getting too late for me, good luck getting laid.
Final thought: Perhaps the kind of guy you're looking for isn't the one that's going to easily agree to go on a date with you. Perhaps he's got plenty going on in his satisfying life and isn't interested in pre-date text sessions laying out the rules. Perhaps you're going to have to do ALL the work -- find him, attract his interest, convince him to go out with you, etc.
>okay chad remember I need to be initiator not you, even if you want to fuck
>*proceeds to never initiate when chad wants to fuck*
>wtf chad why did you ignore my orders?
Men are used to girls saying one thing and wanting another.
>tehee I never fuck on the first date
>boohoo why didn't you take me home and fuck me even thought I wanted you to? I had to get fucked by Chad instead and now I feel like a dirty used whore
OP is screwed over by deviating from the norm, just like the majority of guys on this board.
>tfw no possessive dom gf
Sorry for the delay in the response, I'm kind of spacing out tonight. Yes, I can. Now, mind you that these are different women so I'm not conflating them with each other, or with all women or whatever other bullshit someone will try to NOT ALL WOMEN me.
girl 1: >didn't like when i pushed her for sex (read: initiated)
she would put up token resistance as a way of letting herself believe she wasn't like that but once things got going she was into it and enjoyed herself. She wasn't merely putting up an act to make me feel better later, i dated this girl for years and when she really meant no i knew, but she didn't do anything differently from her "fake" no's, so it's hard to describe it.
>when I didn't she didn't feel attractive
>her idea of flirting was getting herself into a position where she knew I would want to do things to her, like grab her or something
>girl 2:
>rape fetish
I shouldn't have to really explain this one. Although it took me a while to really get. She got off to telling me no, resisting, and me pushing her despite her resisting. Tying her up to get away and everything. I never did anything physical until it was *very* ironed out, after several months, but the same play was in the flirting and daily getting to know each other. Liked when I "stalked" her, and basically was a pain in the ass to learn "no" from "No."
>girl 3
As an inversion, she said exactly what she wanted, and how she wanted it, but the more I went along with it the less enthusiastic she got. We never really went anywhere because other reasons.
The short of it is, men, or at least I, learn to "do what works", not "do what she says works". However I have a pretty good sense of people so I recognize that this is a terrible broad strategy and I hate that it's like this nowadays.
How would you construct such writing were you in my position?