First off, systemd is not an init system, it has an init system as part of the systemd suite...

I manage a team of 5 sysadmins at work, they all hate systemd. If there was a commercially supported Linux that promised sysV forever we would move to it. Fuck you RedHat, fuck you.

>I manage a team of 5 sysadmins at work, they all hate systemd.
>having to rely on others' opinions since not capable of forming their own

Recently started using a systemd distro (was previously on Ubuntu/Server 14.04). And boy do I like it.

Makes it a breeze to run an app as a service, logging is per-service (!), centralized/automatic status of every service, simpler/readable/smarter timers than cron.

Cgroups are great, they're trivial to use (any service and its child processes will automatically be part of the same cgroup). You can get per-group resource monitoring via systemd-cgtop, and systemd also makes sure child processes are killed when your main dies/is stopped. You get all this for free, it's automatic.

I don't even give a shit about init stuff (though it greatly helps there too) and I already love it. I've barely scratched the features and I'm excited.

I mean, I was already pro-systemd because it's one of the rare times the community took a step to reduce the fragmentation that keeps the Linux desktop an obscure joke. But now that I'm actually using it, I like it for non-ideological reasons, too!

Three cheers for systemd!

What distro exactly?

way better than the broken mess that was sysvinit

What was broken? Also there is openRC and runit, which are alternatives to init.

>have to wait for devices to "settle"
>no process supervision, "state" is stored in pid files
>verbose initscripts compared to systemd unit syntax
>tacked on dependency system

I use openRC and I don't have any problems with it

Don't care. I prefer using BSD style init scripts

You're free to do as you like, after all systemd is about choice.

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He actually seems like a pretty nice guy in reality

Systemd is a prison.

>Commercially supported
Why do you need a commercially supported linux distro? Isn't that the point of being an admin, to administrate such a system?

>I was already pro-systemd because it's one of the rare times the community took a step to reduce the fragmentation that keeps the Linux desktop an obscure joke
Nothing about sysv is fragmented. Systemd is inherently evil because it's basically a big blob, if you need one part of it you have to use it exclusively. It's bad and breeds unnecessary depdencies, in the exact same way GNOME bullying developers into using their libraries forces you to use GNOMEshit even if you don't use GNOME

Yeah, just like taxes are a choice.
Fuck off pottershill

shit analogy desu

No one is gonna put you in the slammer for using Runit.

Systemd is not a drop in replacement. It does not replace what sysv did. It wholly and totally upsets the entire linux ecosystem, because its developers are shitheads. They will write something one way, and expect EVERYBODY to do it that way. Does this cause problems? Yes, because now you're not POSIX compliant. You can't simply pipe things around now. Now you HAVE to write FOR systemd. Linus banned one of the core developers of systemd from contributing to the kernel for a very good fucking reason.

Systemd is slowly not becoming optional. As an init system sure, but as more and more libraries and packages start to expect you to have systemd because the developer HAD to write their software in a way that worked with how ass-broken systemd is, the more and more you'll be forced to use it.

>I hate taxes!
>So leave society
Oh gee sure.
It's a perfectly fine analogy.
>I hate systemd!
>So stop using it, and along with it every piece of software that had to be specially written to work around its problems

Too bad it's the init in 99% of distros now with only a few using something else. At least most of the distros using a different init are good

>Systemd is slowly not becoming optional
Well there's always gonna be gentoo.

You can't just use a compiler flag to magic away fundamental calls in the source code. You can do it for most things now, sure, but in a few years when everybody has adopted this retarded "JUST USE GNOMELIBS AND PULSEAUDIO AND SYSTEMD FOR EVERYTHING" mentality, programs will become hardcoded to rely on them. It's already happening, if you want to use firefox quantum and have audio you *have* to have pottershit installed. Short of opening up the entire codebase and rewiring it to allow ALSA again, you cannot just emerge -nopavu

OTOH
Colleagues said he's medium-autismo IRL and managed to lose RH some big contracts by being his normal online self during cons or something.

contribute to devuan

Well there is apulse, which is a pulse emulator for alsa. Also I have the '-systemd' use flag on, I also have udev masked and I use eudev. However I do use pulseaudio, it isn't actually that bad and it's pretty convenient, though if I just knew how to make alsa play sound from multiple different sources at once.

Theoretically nothing is wrong with systemd.
In practice, everything is wrong with it, because it's developers are completely careless. It's riddled with security holes, weird bugs that other developers are forced to work around because they refuse to fix it, and plagued with this "Fuck you, we're your only option" mentality.
It's the Microsoft of the Linux world.

PA I have a lot fewer issues with, aside from the fact that it's part of the "oh just use this one thing XDDD" disease. When it works, it fuckin WORKS. But when it doesnt, it's a completely worthless pile of dogshit and you will never, ever, EVER be able to get it to run correctly. It's an all or nothing system, and when people start relying on it to just "be there" then we start getting into the real fucky areas.
It's just not good practice. It doesn't matter if it "just werkz", what about when it doesn't work? What if I want to use some other alternatives for Reason X? We shouldn't be encouraging this service-level dependency in development.

I can excuse developers leveraging GNOME and KDE libraries, both of those want to be full DE experiences with built in apps and all this lovely shit so its easy to use, and that means they have a lot of robust QT and GTK libraries at their disposal. Okay, sure, and if I really want to I can replace that library with something else.
I cannot replace systemd dependency. I cannot replace pulseaudio dependency. This is not like swapping out some software you don't like to use an alternative, this is having to gut your entire system and hoping some application somewhere doesn't rely exclusively on systemd.

why is IPAccounting and RestrictAddressFamilies a thing when you can just use firewall rules

>I manage a team of 5 sysadmins at work, they all hate systemd.

I wish all you faggots would be jobless NEETards already.

He won't, just like every buttmadd antisystemd autismo he is only good at complaining about others' software.

Or we have fucking jobs and are busy, and can't spend 25 hours a week making meaningful contributions

then stop crying like a pussy bitch. cuck

systemd is now and "choice" is for the strong.

Wrong
Because middle management wont sign off on an unsupported piece of software that supports over 20,000 people in life or death situations
OK buddy

>life or death situations
If that's the case then just use whatever the hell RedHat says to. There's not really any way around that, just like there's not really any way around me having to use heaping clusterfucks of windows servers at work

And we are, doesn't mean we have to like it.

why does it take 10 minutes to shut down

You did something wrong.

what youre talking 'bout Jow Forums

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Not him, but regular Debian does that to me too. It's insane.

I rarely ever have start/stop job shenanigans bothering me but if your shit's all fucked up and you don't know how to fix it, you can just reduce the default timeout on the jobs from 90s to whatever you want.

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I'd rather contribute to slackware. best distro imo of course

No, Ric... Lennart, it is bloated init system, and Linux is OS.

have you tried
shudown now

instead of
shutdown +10m

What you talkin' 'bout Jow Forums?

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Absolutely based

The only reason I ever reboot is due to upgrades finally conflicting with each other enough to require it.

When there's a deep fundamental conflict someplace, one that really blows shit up, systemd just queues up a long chain of dependent shutdown problems with unusually long timeouts. Sys V just plowed through them and let me fix it later, if needed.

Similarly, when I first installed it, systemd made my machine unbootable. The 15 years of cruft scattered throughout init that sys v manfully and appropriately plowed stopped systemd in its tracks. It has just enough smarts to be dumb.

Hasn't been a net positive for me from since whenever Debian switch until today.

I'm sorry to hear that. Ya, you are right some of those default timeouts are a bit too long.

If people have an issue with systemd becoming huge, why not fork it into its individual parts?

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>tfw I am starting to get used to systemd and it makes things easier to manage for me and overall I like it

>all these properties you mentioned
why not use fucking windows then, where those properties exist on every level?
>centrally planned unified API for userland including SCM
>very mature with great upgrades in 6.1
>a bunch of apis written on top of it, literally dozens of them so you can write whatever retarded code you want
>standard compiler is unironically less trash than gcc
>executable format is less trash
All thanks to the same tradeoff you're talking about, which microsoft never had to make because it's their default.
>muh free software
>muh cianiggers
The distinction is gone exactly because of these types of changes. systemD/guhnooh/whaleland/linux will become a less mature windows within several years.

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>systemd
worst shit ever i seen.

>restrictive for Unix virtuosi
No it isn't you fucking gigantic dipshit, stop falling for bait.

systemd is nsa backdoor

>all these people replying to copypasta

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realize that it is an integral part of fedora and debian (gross), but
it is a serious security hole and qubes should consider migrating away
from it by maybe choosing another orgin distro.
without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Arguments_against_systemd

muchweb.me/systemd-nsa-attempt
"The Linux kernel, I believe, is clean. As long as Linus lives, you're
not going to subvert the kernel. Let's just assume that is true for the
sake of argument. If you can't get into the kernel, what is your next
option? You need something low level (PID 1?), ubiquitous, and vast in
scope and complexity.

This describes systemd perfectly. It was almost like it was designed to
touch as much of a Linux system as possible. It has hooks into some many
different subsystems and APIs that it's almost impossible to build a
modern distro with current software without pulling in systemd as a
dependency. This happened almost overnight, and I think there are
malicious forces at work here."

Assuming that it is the NSA is unimaginative, it could be literally be
any combination of interests that are doing this - who wouldn't desire
absolute control and absolute power over 99% of linux systems?

bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=761658
I am tired of the "virtualization will protect you!" excuse, it only
goes so far and some systemD issues such as using google DNS by default
are simply inexcusable from a qubes perspective (designed to be a secure
OS, but phoning home like that without asking isn't secure at all)

Linux is about choice, but now the incompetent lennart and red hat are
choosing for you - they are more qualified to make that decision and are
doing it for your own good.

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What are RMS's thoughts on systemd? That's all I care about, really.

>I’ve never seen it, I’ve never used a system that had it; I know it’s free software, so ethically speaking, it’s not an issue – it’s just a convenience question.

have you considered that the problem might be that you've let 15 years of cruft pile up without culling or maintaining it? That sounds like it was gonna break eventually anyway and systemd just happened to be the thing that did it.

sounds cool
corporatecucks btfo

without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Arguments_against_systemd

I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.

Many computer users run a modified version of the GNU system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU which is widely used today is often called "Linux", and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the GNU system, developed by the GNU Project.

There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system is basically GNU with Linux added, or GNU/Linux. All the so-called "Linux" distributions are really distributions of GNU/Linux.

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>needs a third-party slackpkg extension for multilib
>manual dependency resolution
why?

systemd is free software

I asked him in person when I met him at a conference. He says that systemd's usual complaints are technical issues, not ideological ones, therefore it's fine to him as long as it's free software (which it is).
Whether it's shit or not from a technical point of view is another topic that RMS never expressed his opinion about.

Whatcha talkin' about Jow Forums?

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He probably thinks it's pretty good but doesn't want to alienate his bandwagon hopping fanbase.

Thank god for openrc

>why not fork it into its individual parts
Because systemd devs actively work against making that feasible.

>probably thinks it's pretty good
That sounds like worrying short-sightedness on his side.
Alas, it's quite possible.

SystemD eh?

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It's really sad that an SJW kraut has basically killed Linux on the desktop

it's really sad that you think an init system that you consider bloated equates with killing Linux on the desktop

>Modularity is a bad thing.
OP is a faggot.

That's the opposite of it.

>the community took a step to reduce the fragmentation that keeps the Linux desktop an obscure joke
OK, now I understand why everybody hates systemd.

What is it about freetards that they hatehateHATE anybody trying something new? Do they really have to be dragged kicking and screaming everywhere that might be an improvement?

>btw I don't have an opinion of systemd either way - as a Windows user, I don't have to worry about this. but I do see the trend that everything's "evil" until it sticks (or doesn't)

init was simple and robust. While configuration had it's distro-specific
differences, it was often these differences that made one pick the
distro to use in the first place, and to stay with that distro. The
tools essentially *were* the distro.

In a 'One Linux' world, what would distros actually be? Deprecated. No
longer relevant. Archaic shells of their once proud individualism.
Basically, they're now just a logo and a default desktop background
image. Because let's face it, there only needs to be One Modern
'competitor' to the Windows/Mac ownership of personal computing. A
unified front to combat the evil empires of Redmond and Cupertino is
what's needed. The various differences that made up different 'flavors'
of Linux needed to be corralled and brought into compliance for the war
to proceed efficiently. Um, what war?

For me, Linux had already won that war way back in 1994 when I started
using it. It did it without firing a shot or attempting to be just like
the other OSes. It won it it by not giving a flying fuck about market
share. It won it by being exactly NOT them. It won it by being simple
and understandable and configurable to be exactly how *I* wanted it to
be. It won it by being a collection of simple modular components that
could be plugged together at will to do real work. It won it by
adhering to a deeply considered philosophy of the user being in the
drivers seat, and being free to run the things he wanted to, without
layers and layers of frameworks wrapping their tendrils into all manor
of stuff they should not be touching. It won it without the various
'CrapKit' shit that's begun to insinuate itself into the heart of my
system of late. It won it without being overly complex and unknowable.
That kind of opacity was was the core of Windows and Mac, and that's
exactly what I despise about them, and exactly why I chose to use Linux
in the first goddamn place. systemd is embracing *all* that I hate about
Windows and Mac.

>Do they really have to be dragged kicking and screaming everywhere that might be an improvement?
Yeah, pretty much. I remember reading this ancient internet post from the 90's about the evils of package management from some Slackware user and it wasn't too different in tone to the critics of systemd today.

systemd fragmented Linux more than ever

Package management doesn’t have builtin connections to Google DNS
>inb4 Distro maintainers are supposed to change it.
The fact that Google EVER enters the conversation in the first place is a serious problem.

Package management doesn’t allow for the bricking of EFI motherboards
>inb4 that’s the manufacturer’s fault!
Interesting that other init/service management systems don’t seem to have this problem.

developed by nsa at least a good amount. who cares if its free its unaudited so its useless

Chromium is free software

This. Development of Systemd needs to STOP, right where it is, and should not resume until a complete, public, and transparent audit is conducted.
Then explain why Ungoogled-Chromium and other such forks exist

But no ungoogled systemd fork exists.
Why? Because it's not a user choice but a distro choice.
And no distro would use anything other than the Red Hat dictated fork anyway.

pretty much this. you're better off using a closed source os over systemd since its unaudited anyway and has ties to nsa

>There is a lot of FUD and hate going around.
let's see some of the fud.
>cannot use X username
>not a bug, don't use that username
next
>uses hardcoded dns
>not a bug.
next
>systemd mounts my bios as r+w for no reason. A wrong command could brick my motherboard
>not a bug, don't use those commands
and the list is endless.
Gee I wonder why people hate systemd and why there's so much "fud" around that marvelous piss of s/w.
The jews at fedora won a fight against the linux philosophy. Your Gnome desktop has dependencies with systemd. Your future display server is havind dependencies with systemd. In the near future your programs will be more tied to systemd, than the linux specific api.
systemd actually shits on other UNIX-like operating systems and kernels, even those who use Linux but not systemd, by forcing them to either do a dirty job implementing unnecessary features from systemd to other init systems, or stop using s/w that now depends on systemd.
every systemdnigger should go back to windows or fagos.

>not ideological ones
I guess there's no ideological conflict when you don't follow the Unix philosophy when you implement components for a unix system.

ITT

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>USE=-pulseaudio emerge firefox
You literally can.

> agressively inject systemd into other projects to make it mandatory
> intentionally break compatibilities from other init systems
> systemd slowly spreading like inoperable cancer into linux ecosystem
> "You don't have to use it if you don't like it"

You don't. Go use runit or openrc.

>if you want to use firefox quantum and have audio you *have* to have pottershit installed.
No

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