Is it possible to live without a phone in today's age?
Now that it's confirmed that the baseband OS tracks realtime location data and communicates with carriers at all times regardless of the ROM settings, not even custom ROMs can protect you from this blackbox. A dumbphone doesn't help, either. Not even the upcoming Linuix-based Librem-5 will help, as the baseband is proprietary, unless you plan to remove the battery when not in use, which negates the point of having a mobile device in the first place.
Basically, there's no other sane option besides boycotting phones.
Why the baseband is so dangerous: >fsf.org/blogs/community/replicant-developers-find-and-close-samsung-galaxy-backdoor >Today's phones come with two separate processors: one is a general-purpose applications processor that runs the main operating system, e.g. Android; the other, known as the modem, baseband, or radio, is in charge of communications with the mobile telephony network. This processor always runs a proprietary operating system, and these systems are known to have backdoors that make it possible to remotely convert the modem into a remote spying device. The spying can involve activating the device's microphone, but it could also use the precise GPS location of the device and access the camera, as well as the user data stored on the phone. Moreover, modems are connected most of the time to the operator's network, making the backdoors nearly always accessible >we discovered that the proprietary program running on the applications processor in charge of handling the communication protocol with the modem actually implements a backdoor that lets the modem perform remote file I/O operations on the file system So potentially anyone communicating with the baseband (e.g. your carrier, etc) can read your ROM memory/disk/access hardware in general. It's like Intel ME, but worst.
Wyatt Ramirez
yes it is it's also possible to live in a country with no income taxes
but maybe that's not such a good idea
Easton Young
90% of how I use my phone could be done without SIM and rest could be moved to mail and other communication services that don't require phone number so yes, it's very possible - you just have to build your social live around it. The problem could be services that require phone number as identifier or anti-spam feature for registration.
Camden Watson
What if you need to receive a call/email when away from home? How do you connect online (excluding shitty public wifi)?
Caleb Hernandez
VAT is a lot better than income tax. Richfags can easily evade income taxes through incorporation, subsidiary, and legal loopholes, not to mention interest and capital gains being taxed at much lower rates than income. Bad example.
It's easy to do with a small circle of people you know. Much harder with an extended circle. Nearly impossible if you work contract or remote or have to be on-call. The work-arounds involve more pc usage and it's not much more difficult to be monitored there. The best way for the paranoid to deal is to do regular walk-about without their phone and do all of their meaningful computing on a desktop.
Ironically the best way to get that kind of economic freedom is to make the most of every botnet device in order to retire early.
Austin Hernandez
You don't need a SIM in your phone for the baseband to be active. In many countries, you can dial emergency without a SIM, which tells you all you need to know about the nature of the baseband when it can widely send out a specific signal and carriers are required to pick up on it and rely it. What about other signals that it sends, to be picked up by any interested receiver? The thing about a traditional network is you can block outgoing connections and inspect them. But the nature of mobile communication is that part of the hardware is open wide and you have no way of controlling it. The only option is to not use a device with a baseband.
Wyatt Lewis
Payphones need to make a comeback.
Hudson Foster
The concept of being reachable 24-7 is fairly new. It isn't hard to avoid that kind of career if you so desire. Don't be a sysadmin, surgeon, etc.
I work from home and I have a smartphone for the job, but it's off after 5pm until 7am the next day. Those are my hours and my employer respects that.
Bentley Garcia
>implying payphones aren't wiretapped and under camera surveillance
Juan Evans
>she doesn't use a phone with libre baseband firmware
i don't use one i wouldn't even know what for i don't even have friends to call so there's no reason to pay for a shitty contract and an overpriced brick
Adam Ross
I was suggesting I can swap phone for normal laptop for those 90% usecases
>a brilliant mathematician pissed away a brilliant career to sperg about muh techmology Sad!
Evan Morales
I've read a whole lot of forensic reports in my time and payphones were "fair game" in my country. Every payphone near a train station or bus station and a lot of seemingly other random ones were monitored. Camera surveillance wasn't really a thing since cameras were a lot bigger back when payphones and to some extent pagers were popular. Police didn't care that they couldn't see if "a suspect" were talking or not, they just listened to everyone and used the few random pieces of information that came. The simple fact that this practice was highly illegal didn't seem to matter to anyone.
Chase Reed
This. Every landline and payphone is wiretapped by design.
A post on the front page of HN says cell phone providers are selling location data.
Jonathan Perry
Is there any way to hack your own sdr into/through the sim card slot?
Wyatt Howard
>Now that it's confirmed that the baseband OS tracks realtime location data and communicates with carriers at all times regardless of the ROM settings, not even custom ROMs can protect you from this blackbox. If the phone carrier doesn't track you, how's it know which cell tower to use to send you a call?
Jose King
If you don't have SIM government won't identify you. They still can track you bet if they try to search you by your name they won't know the device belongs to you.
Ryan Barnes
Income tax is a better system than VAT, don't let the US be the flagship example of Income tax. The issue has 100% to do with deductions, not evasion. Income taxes aren't easy to evade. The IRS got Al Capone for heavens sake. The thing is lobbyists demand deductions for the businesses they represent and politicians give it to them, creating a clusterfuck tax code. Capital gains arguably shouldn't be taxed at all, since you've already paid taxes two prior times before paying capital gains (you pay income tax on your income, which you put into stocks, then you pay the corporate income tax as a stockholder). Done right, income tax has fewer cost of living effects than VAT. Hell this is even true with the US compared with Europe dispite the clusterfuck system.
John Richardson
i lived with it for 13 years and i hardly use one now so yes it is possible
Tyler Barnes
>Now that it's confirmed that the baseband OS tracks realtime location data and communicates with carriers at all times How else would the carrier know which base station to relay your data to and which directional antenna to send your signal from? If they don't know where you are, they can't get the signal to you.
Jaxon Turner
I don't think it's possible. BUT for two weeks now I just leave my phone at home. I basically don't see it as a mobile phone atm. It is basically a (((landline))) fone for me now. I dont get distracted as much and way better. Try it out. It's awesome.
I still have my laptop with me, so if I think I REALLY have to check mail or the internet it's possible. Just visit the next cafe. But i dont constantly check my phone and if I am at home people can call me perfectly fine (or I call/message them back).
>Now that it's confirmed that the baseband OS tracks realtime location data and communicates with carriers at all times regardless of the ROM settings, not even custom ROMs can protect you from this blackbox. Were you born yesterday? It's always been like this, even when we only had dumbphones. All mobile phones are tracking you, even when using FOSS ROMs and applications only. As for your question, yes, it's definitely possible to live without a cell phone. I own one myself since the added convenience in my opinion outweights the small botnet amount it brings (I do run Lineage and no GApps), but I'm not addicted to it. Should I decide to ditch it, my life wouldn't change that much.
Fuck off, Varg unironically believes writing is degeneracy.
Caleb Wright
>phone is constantly tracked >go outside >try to look up directions on google maps >phone gives a half mile radius for my location, not centered where I actually am >phone gives up and tells me I'm still in a city I visited for an hour the day before
If they know where I am they could at least fucking tell me.
Sebastian Morales
>Is it possible to live without a phone in today's age? the current state of newfags
Adrian Torres
Dumb hobo.
Kevin Johnson
>what is theft
Brayden Martinez
Been doing this for almost 2 months. Only two or three times I knew that I had to contact someone on short notice while away, but otherwise, my phone hasn't left the house. I don't even take a laptop with me unless I need to for uni. The only electronic device I still carry with me is an e-reader for the bus rides.
Wyatt Moore
>Living a way shittier life just because there is a
Gabriel Flores
How about buying an ipod or some wifi only device and carrying a pocket wifi with you all thr time? And using only facetime or other services for calls and texts
Jeremiah Price
>le nothing to hide argument kek
Liam Taylor
I lived without a phone during my first year at university.
It was the 1990's, cell phones were still very expensive and my flat didn't have a land line.
I did have a pager, so for emergencies people could send me their phone number and I would find a payphone to call them. Worked but was annoying as fuck for both sides.
Benjamin James
It's certainly possible.
I'm starting to realize that the only times I use my phone "communication" is calling my family, and annoying ass calls from work because something is broken, plsu mobile shitposting. I've become "that guy," taking hours to days to respond to a text or return a call. I just wish people wouldn't try to contact me at all points throughout the day
Kevin Brown
Income tax misses the 1% who live off investment income. You're simply wrong, sorry.
Jacob Morris
Not just carrying the shit in a thick lead box.
Colton Jones
not all phones are smartphones, just get a regular cellie, holy shit you people are retarded.
yes i did a celli won't 100% protect you but it sure as fucking shit better than a smartphone. cellies don't have a dedicated fucking gps
Nathaniel Bennett
>as the baseband is proprietary, unless you plan to remove the battery when not in use, which negates the point of having a mobile device in the first place.
Alexander Garcia
IMEI is always sent, even if you don't have a SIM (i.e. no IMSI to send and no keys to encrypt the traffic on the TCH) and you dial an emergency number, so you are still pretty much traceable, at least when it comes to the device you are using and this is an easy vector for correlation with your identity since a lot of people use devices provided through contract with the carrier.
Jordan Anderson
It's possible, but it creates annoyances for everyone and makes you less competitive. Surprisingly, a lot of clients still prefer to reach me by phone, even if I try to move them over to other methods of communication. In terms of living without smartphones, yes, absolutely it's possible. I ditched my iPhone 5s in favour of a Nokia 3310 last year and I find that I have been able to concentrate far better and I've generally been less distracted. But all phones? If you are worried about the baseband... can't help you there.
That's actually pretty interesting. Any reasons for not getting a landline into your flat? Cost or just lack of wires? Also what sort of plans did the carriers have for pagers?
My first year of university I lived in residence. Had a landline, but didn't have a cellphone. Even in 2009, that was considered unusual. Girls used to give me a really confused look when I said "extension" after giving them my phone number. The following term I caved and not just bought a cell phone, but jumped straight to a smartphone.
>Thank you Palm Pixi for helping me lose my virginity
Grayson Cooper
>i can't read a thread before commenting: the post
Lincoln Peterson
>lineageos >no GApps >Never had a SIM >Flight mode all the time Are you telling me the phone is broadcasting the IMEI all the time and this is stored by all providers?
Lucas Bell
I haven't touched my phone in 3 years. It's really not that big of a deal seeing as I have no social life, so nobody to call. Even back when I used my phone I couldn't afford data, so it wasn't useful for looking stuff up either. Honestly I never want to go back to using one. When I was using one, I had more of a social life and seeing other people on social media having fun stressed out my autism. Notifications are also extremely irritating to me.
James Reed
No. Read your own links. >Samsung Galaxy devices running proprietary Android versions come with a back-door that provides remote access to the data stored on the device You need to have a samsung phone with the default rom, nobody does that (here) and if they do it's expected to have conpromised privacy. It's not nearly as bad as intel ME
Nathaniel Rogers
>want to keep using a dumb phone >phone companies in America are shutting down 2g towers
>Any reasons for not getting a landline into your flat? Cost or just lack of wires?
Lack of wires and high cost to get them installed. I never planned to stay there long so I didn't want to pay.
>Also what sort of plans did the carriers have for pagers?
No contract and no cost to me. But people paging me had to pay quite a considerable amount - can't remember exactly but it was equivalent to calling someone on a cellphone for several minutes (which back then was far more expensive than calling land lines) Payphones were also expensive, so I also ended up paying a fair bit to live "without a phone".
Mason Lee
You can buy a new dumbphone for less than $20.
Brody Adams
Are they 4g LTE™ or 5g™ compatible?
Christopher Jackson
>want 2fa >Need phone for this >This choice is explicitly chosen by companies over anything else
Bentley Hill
It is possible, but I personally don't do it. A phone gives me certain things I don't want to live without. The major thing is calls. I live about 2 hours away from my family, so I don't see them very often. I call them very often though and it keeps us close. I often do this while I go for a walk, but I suppose I could find an alternative as it is somewhat planned. But I can't predict when someone from work calls me or when I need to call them and I don't want to lose my job over g memes. Until we get instant teleportation so I can be at all places I want to be, a phone is the best option.
All the other functions I could live without: Payments, calenders, researching stuff on the go, listening to music and all the other stuff you do with a phone are not really things I need. Emails on the go is pretty good though.
Charles Sullivan
>Now that it's confirmed that the baseband OS tracks realtime location data and communicates with carriers at all times regardless of the ROM settings Source?
Dylan Perry
>proprietary shit doesn't track you >what is cell tower triangulation >what is imei
Still sounds really cool. Living without a phone in the 1990s sounds like maximum comfiness to me now, even though I am sure it was a pain in the ass at the time.
You can still use the 3G ones and I suspect the 3G networks are going to stay up for some time.
Andrew Hall
Kys
Liam Jackson
I just use an unlocked phone without a simcard in it. Its never been connected to a carrier network. I use it to talk to people on Jow Forums with clover, take pictures, play music, alarmclock, and to take quick notes. No reason not to do the same. No one even uses SMS or phone calls anymore so you don't need them.
>It's not nearly as bad as intel ME Read: >Moreover, modems are connected most of the time to the operator's network, making the backdoors nearly always accessible. It's far worst, because it's like having ME connected at all times to a third-party network that you can't authenticate, and of course this running on a higher privileged level than your ROM. You can firewall ME (provided it isn't cellular enabled), you can't do that with a mobile network.
Jaxon Stewart
>You can firewall ME (provided it isn't cellular enabled), you can't do that with a mobile network That's where you're wrong
>Its never been connected to a carrier network See >becomes completely useless as a mobile communications device in the process >each time you do use cellular, there's now a red flag of your phone appearing to networks suddenly in certain locations, then disappearing again
>It's not far fetched to assume this isn't an isolated occurrence. How can you say that?
Andrew Howard
In my experience...I've noticed it's easier to get a job interview if a cell phone number is listed on your application/resume, the temp service I used to go through preferred you had a cell phone so they could call you at any time.
John Wilson
>buy any cheap smartphone with good dev docs like a Nexus 5 >open it up with a screwdriver and other simple tools >completely remove the microphones, speakers, and cameras >install a FOSS Android distro like Lineage OS >gut the GPS and Bluetooth firmware (WLAN firmware optional unless there are known bad vulnerabilities) >buy a pair of $20 headphones with inline microphone for calls This is what we do in my company (DoD contractor). My work phone is a Nexus 6 with a heavily modified version of Android they put together in-house. No Google apps, no app stores. Just the bare minimum for use as a phone and for emails. Of course you can't use maps or location services but that's a good thing. You could still be triangulated by the cell signal, but it's only accurate within like a block or two, which is a fairly large area.
With the DMA stuff in the baseband processor, you can't really do anything about it. You just buy phones from OEMs who specifically claim to have proper isolation. I'm pretty sure the Nexus 6 is properly isolated in this manner, but it could be firmware isolation. In that case it wouldn't be worth a damn, since one flaw lets you bypass everything and hook into the kernel, if not giving you DMA again. It must be isolated through hardware only.
My company I work for is also looking into the Librem 5 because of the hardware kill switches and fully documented baseband isolation in hardware. If they can back up their claims with real hardware, they can expect quite a few sales from defense contractors.
Mason Robinson
>a block or two Maybe with 3G, but not with LTE LTE cells are positioned more densely Triangulation works by issuing a handover procedure (a redirect) to the cell that is servicing you at the moment, and then to the cell that you are redirected to, and so on. Finally, your location, if you are using an LTE network, can be determined (depending on the number of cells in the location area) with accuracy of 50 meters.
Camden King
That's fuckin incredible man. Would they be willing to sell the process / sell pre-modified devices? I'd pay out the ass for a model like that
Yes, I've been doing it for a couple years now. Don't take my word for it though, just try it for yourself and leave your cell phone at home when you go out. You don't need to be on call 24/7. I still recommend having a cell phone in case your vehicle breaks down when traveling outside the city you live in, even if you leave it off at all times. You can get some really good deals on prepaid cell service too if you just want something for emergencies that you always leave off otherwise, I pay $10 every 4 months for mine just in case my vehicle breaks down. If you're worried about text messages if you don't have a cell phone, carriers actually offer SMS>email/email>SMS bridges.
They aren't that cheap, but yes there are 4G dumb phones. Avoid Nokia's new 4G offerings if you want a true dumb phone though, as they're really just smartphones in a more traditional dumb phone form factor running a nonstandard OS and therefore can't be secured like you can an Android based smartphone. Nokia's new 4G "dumb" phones allow you to use various internet based services over wifi and even have app stores from what I've read.
US carriers are actually going to be dropping 3G at the same time as 2G for the most part. 2G still serves a purpose as there's a ton of phones out there that don't support VoLTE and therefore need 2G service for voice calls even if they support 3G or 4G for data, 3G on the other hand doesn't offer anything that 4G doesn't.
>if you are using an LTE network, can be determined (depending on the number of cells in the location area) with accuracy of 50 meters. Sauce on that claim? I know they can get rather accurate location data these days and how it's done given the towers already use directional antennas for best performance for range/people supported per tower, but I've never seen actual numbers about how accurate it can be from a reliable source.
Jackson James
You can ignore the complex talk about the baseband firmware and instead go directly to how cell service providers are selling live access to location data that hasn't been anonymized these days with evidence now. Links with discussion on Hacker News: news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17094213 news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17081684 news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17046632 Remember, this is done on the cell tower side, so even with nice FOSS baseband firmware you'd still be vulnerable.
David Watson
>but I've never seen actual numbers about how accurate it can be from a reliable source you wouldn't find any and there is a good reason for that you just have to take my word, i guess as far as the densification, you can probably review the LTE specifications on the 3GPP site and try to understand why every generation GSM that is following will require more dense BTS infrastructure 5G will basically require more BTSes than ever t. implementing OTA software for a carrier in Eastern Europe
Nathan Lopez
That is nothing. In Eastern Europe, a lot of carriers do not use TMSI for some reason and page the devices in the location area though their IMSI, so every idiot with a $10 rtl-sdr dongle and can monitor the BCCH channel of any cell in the given location area, then send you a silent SMS that is not going to cause your phone to ring but it will get paged and your presence in the location area is disclosed. Not to mention what can be done if you are using an old SIM card with DES keys instead of AES for OTA updates. Not to mention how easy it is not recover the encryption key used for the A5 stream cipher (given the right set of circumstances and BTSes that avoid doing handovers too often) GSM is a huge pile of shit.
Justin Turner
>Would they be willing to sell the process / sell pre-modified devices? No, they wouldn't. But the methods and end results are more or less an open secret. Go ask the XDA Pajeets about which phones have proper documentation on where the firmware for various components is located and whether or not you can strip it, either from the rooted userland or from the low level bootloader interface over ADB. The rest is just unplugging the components inside that you never want activated ever again.
The two big pieces of firmware you'll want to strip are Bluetooth and GPS. Those cause nothing but security problems. The three biggest pieces of hardware to strip out are the camera, microphone, and speaker. There will probably two of each on a lot of phones. Remove them all. It's not hard to do. Just unplug the connectors or cut through the ribbon cables if they're soldered. This works great with any $60 Walmart pre-paid phone.
Parker Jones
I knew cell phone companies sold your location data before, but all previous information has pointed to it not being in real time and being "anonymized" but with companies potentially being able to deanonymize it. That they aren't even bothering with the anonymizing step anymore and are straight up giving other companies real time access is absolutely ridiculous. I started going without a cell phone a few years back simply as a cost saving measure, but with shit like this coming out I don't think I could ever go back. Where did everything go so wrong?
Certainly, I haven't had a phone for the better part of a year. Only reason I'm getting service back is because I use it as a hotspot and to find friends while I'm out and about during summer
