I really don't enjoy using emacs

>it's no surprise there is a config distribution for it that mimics vim behaviour
wow it sure is no surprise that people have different tastes and prefer different things
What a world, huh

>what is bash?
Another shitty shell made by the shit people at GNU. They also created texinfo are you going to call that good too?
fuckin' retard

Basically if you like Unix philosophy you don't use emacs.

yea instead you use a pile of shit you need to config for around a month to be able to do anything other than write simple text files

Don't call Unix a pile of shit you dumb Lisper fuck.
You're just mad because your preferred operating system died in the 80's and you're trying to shoehorn it into Unix. Fuck on back to symbolics you piece of shit.

bash is better than sh for several things in the same sense that GNU Make has it's advantages over certain other makes.
Texinfo has the massive advantage of producing readable manuals that actually deserve their name, but like all things tex is kind of a mess under the hood.

>Basically if you like Unix philosophy you don't use emacs.
The irony of that is that Emacs in itself is a core lang and program extended with a multitude of individual packages that are made to do one thing and do it well.

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>he unironically thinks he is using UNIX.
Okay, I'll bite. What is your current setup?

>The irony of that is that Emacs in itself is a core lang and program extended with a multitude of individual packages that are made to do one thing and do it well.
Emacs is monolithic and makes you stay inside emacs.

Illumos/OpenIndiana, now fuck off. I've always used commercial Unix, shithead. And if I wanted to I'd fucking use BSD as it was foundational to many Unices in the 80's (SunOS to name one)

>Emacs is monolithic and makes you stay inside emacs.
It depends as what you see Emacs. If you see it as a file manager or interactive shell it isn't. It uses external programs (standard coreutils and the like, compilers, converters..), comes with it's own package manager etc. Point is that working in one running process does not violate Unix philosophy. And if you come to understand modes and functions as layers of individual, interchangeable sub-programs (which is how Emacs essentially works -- must work to function) and realize that it just runs and visualizes your underlying tools just differently and oftentimes better you see that Emacs can be Unix-y. Heck, look at Acme ripping it off! Acme, from the big B itself!

You also did not say anything to my other points. Would you be so kind and at least dismiss them?

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>It depends as what you see Emacs.
I see it as a monolithic program with plugins.
ers is a fool; so are you. Lispers hate Unix.
One lisper even called C and Unix a virus that spread through academia.

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If you don't use Emacs or Vim, you really can't be considered a real programmer, only a IDE worshipping Pajeet. Pajeet can't use a text editor because he can't program. He mashes the keyboard and pounds the tab until it compiles, and relies on the IDE to do the thinking for him.

>Lispers hate Unix.
I think Lispers, like most people, have a very high chance of being neutral towards it. It's not an "for us or against us" world that we live in.

There is actually a really interesting thing about C and Lisp, apparently it may be that they have some formal properties in common about their primitives working exceptionally well as primitives of a corresponding theoretical -machine. Sadly I cannot find the article, and my formal education in that area is not all that great, not my academic field.

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don't be so mean to IDEs, they are a great sourcer of inspiration for editor configuration. Just take it, nick the design, check out the cool features, and turn them on in vim/emacs, boom.

>OpenIndiana
how are your GNUtils treating you?

>neutral about it
jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html
and grab the Unix Haters Handbook, it was written by Lispers.

I don't use them. You set your PATH and MANPAGE vars to the bins you want ie POSIX in /usr/XPG# BSD in /usr/ucb ...etc.

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>>non-standard shortcuts, that no other fucking programm uses
Emacs predates software that uses the "standard" shortcuts to which you refer. Emacs is in the right here, other software is in the wrong.
>>complete keyboard autism
Remap ctrl and/or get a better keyboard.
>>fucks shit up constantly
No it doesn't. If you ever get into a situation you need to leave, press ESC ESC ESC. If you make a mistake, simply undo with C-/.
>>doing any basic task requires pressing 3 buttons while banging your head on the desk and pressing 3 other keys -> congrats you did the same as a simple ctrl+c
C-w: cut
M-w: copy
C-y: paste
Equivalent Emacs commands are exactly as short as C-x, C-c and C-v.
>>inb4 special ed emacsfanbois get all butthurt, cuz someone crjiticized their software mouthfedora
If anything I'm happy because I get to teach you that Emacs isn't as scary as you think it is.

Emacs + a decent lisp mode + a decent parens mode is the ultimate IDE.

we get it, you're an idiot no need to prattle on and on

I am aware of these things, but I do not see the point of handpicked examples. My personal experiences differ, so I am not particularly inclined to care about some bloggers and some mildly entertaining literature. When you peel back the bootstrapping, Emacs is written in C. CL implementations are written in or interface to C. A lot of us possess more than enough self-awareness, you know.

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The LISPers are right, C is a curse that has held back information technology for decades. There was a time when C wasn't the fastest or the most portable and better things were available but sadly as is almost always the case the world converged on the worse solution.

If you want to know what "safe C" looks like take a look at the extreme pain-staking measures NASA has to do to stop their rockets blowing up due to memory mismanagement.

Emacs takes a little while to get used to and it's not for everyone, but if you like it and keep using it you will start missing emacs features in other programs and find ways to use it more and more.

Also here's your millionth explanation of why you're wrong
>non-standard shortcuts, that no other fucking programm uses
Emacs was made before those shortcuts became standards and since changing them would break a ton of shit and it only takes like a day to learn them it's just not worth it.
>complete keyboard autism
Not really, most commands take only a modifier and one or two keys like most gui programs.
>fucks shit up constantly
If you're referring to how emacs does auto-indenting, you can easily change the indent style to one you like, using C-c . in c modes, or make your own style.
>doing any basic task requires pressing 3 buttons while banging your head on the desk and pressing 3 other keys -> congrats you did the same as a simple ctrl+c
Again, most keybinds are only two or three keys total, and you can rebind any keybind thanks to them all being binds to elisp commands. Also ctrl+c is just alt-w in emacs.
>inb4 special ed emacsfanbois get all butthurt, cuz someone crjiticized their software mouthfedora
I'm not particularly mad, just trying to make sure other people don't fall for your bait.

It's GNU. They are a telltale sign that the defaults will suck.

Bash made be a little heavy but it's still the best modern Unix-like shell. Also texinfo is actually pretty neat because it lets you create one manual file which can generate html, pdf, and console compatible copies of.

Unix philosophy is also highly overrated, it's good for super underpowered computers from the 70s and for simple embedded stuff, but the emacs model of a lightweight core that is easily extendable and flexible is honestly better for things that don't need to be lightweight or system level.

POSIX is K. Heck, so is UNIX, but why must you faggots be so preachy. How can you even live with half of the software you use? How can use any modern web browser? How can you live with any editor beyond ed? You keep trash talking everything but you don't even say what you use instead. Why?

Giving you the option to use a lisp environment is hardly shoehorning it into Unix. Also the lisp model is probably the future as computers are finally fast enough for interpreted languages to be practically used (see the popularity of python) so the ultra minimalist, quick to debug and ship, 70s business friendly unix model is no longer as important.

>quick to debug and ship
but one of Lisp's core features IS rapid prototyping!

That's true, it's one of the reasons I love lisp too. I was talking about how when Unix and C were made they often chose to ship what minimally worked and let end-users deal with the quirks. An example of this is how Unix originally handled the problem of user space interrupt a system routine is the routine would complete but just return an error code, so every program made for Unix had to check for an error code and rerun the system routine if it failed as opposed to the system handling that transparently (see jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html). Those kinds of choices helped Unix to be commercially viable by throwing a lot of the work to the end-users and devs so that AT&T, Sun and so on could quickly ship a minimal viable product.

>>non-standaed shortcuts
>emacs shortcuts already existed before advent of these shortcuts
>>keyboard autism
>implying
>>fucks shit up constantly
>blaming emacs for your own autism
>>doing basic tasks requires many keypresses
>implying they do
>implying you couldn't just change them either way

10/10 post user

But if it was up to LISP a computer would be a single user single tasking machine.

How many people are using your computer right now?

>Emacs is written in C
Not initially, GNU emacs had to be written in C to run on Unix. You can't write an interpreter without C on unix. I mean without going to assembly and losing portability.

my server, i'd have to look, but I'm sure more than one.

Emacs isn't really monolithic as it's composed of multiple different parts, mainly the c core which handles lisp interpretting, text rendering, and other universal emacs things, while other parts and extensions are modular bits of elisp code. Also the emacs plugin system hardly makes you stay in emacs any more then the vim plugin system.

Co-operative multitasking has you covered, friend.

All plugin systems defy the unix philosophy.

The Lisp language(s) don't force the single user single tasking model, that was just a side effect of the time period that lisp machines were made. Besides the MIT AI lab actually used a multi-user OS for some of their lisp development, namely ITS.

>that was just a side effect of the time period
Shitty design. No wonder unix won.

GNU Emacs is the best text editor and you're either a pajeet or a brainlet if you can't figure out how to use it.

Unix won because it could run on resource starved systems and do enough things to get some work done. Its design is okay, but some design choices are double edged swords, like the idea of addressing everything as a file, which while interesting doesn't really accurately model a lot of hardware devices which often end up with dedicated tools and apis anyway instead of using the standard file tools.

More than a majority of work of an OS is the manage files (the other is to manager memory+cpu) it does make sense to treat everything as a file since that is what an OS does.

you see, its a joke. because if you dont know that :q exits vim you would be stuck in it lol

GNU Emacs was made by Richard Stallman himself. That being said, you're absolutely correct in all your complaints. I still use Emacs in the terminal, for editing configs, but it is absolutely horse shit for programming. There's no way to universally force tabs for indentation.

That depends on what you consider to be "the OS", if you consider the gnu coreutils to be the biggest part of the OS then sure most of it has to do with managing files, but if you consider the kernel to be the biggest part of the OS then its biggest task is to deal with resource management and device handling.
In fact most of the time the OS is not dealing with file management as most work is done in RAM and occasionally written or loaded from disk.
Besides, while showing hard drives and other storage devices as files makes sense and is very convenient, the devices you use the most while interacting with the computer like keyboards, mice, and graphics output are not best addressed as files and are most often addressed indirectly through libraries like libinput, xinput, sdl, and so on by userspace programs anyway.

No I consider the monolithic kernel to be the biggest part of an os; it handles a lot of files on disk.

Tried emacs, and gotta say, it is pretty good. But the only thing it has over vim + other terminal applications (ie. the true unix way), is org-mode.

Eventualy had to leave emacs because it was so laggy. For example:
> visual block, select all lines I want to edit (25+)
> insert appending/trailing text
> emacs: 30-40 seconds
> vim: < 1 second
Honestly might consider using it even if just for org mode if it wasn't such a laggy and bloated piece of shit.

Yes it does, but it also handles all of your other devices which are just as important as disk devices.
Basically what I'm saying is that everything being a file works well for some devices (like storage devices and ttys) but when it comes to other devices like gpus, mice, keyboards, and other various usb peripherals the model breaks down and you get things like the /dev/input/ were you have several event devices some binding to the same device which no one would ever use when trying to get input.

Emacs can be a bit heavy, but most systems should be able to run it, what where you running it on? Also were you using it in X mode or console mode, because switching from one to the other might help with lag.

I've tried on both X11, and console mode, same lag on both. It was running on a thinkpad x230 core i5 with 12GB of ram, so performance shouldn't of been an issue. I was using evil mode, so that may have made a difference. I was too used to vim shortcuts by now to learn the emacs way. Either way, I have the type of autism where even a little lag will quickly get on my nerves, so lightweight neovim has worked for me. I can still write org mode in vim with pandoc, I just can't use agenda, or the advanced table editing.

Huh, I haven't had that much lag on my T420 with similar specs but I don't use evil mode and I don't do that much heavy editing on my laptop.