Is programming a bubble?

and if so... when will it burst?

People are getting jobs easly and well payed... even a junior can get easly a job with a good salary without a degree...

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It's a bubble that will keep going.
There was genuine demand for developers at some point, so the bar was lowered. But because the bar was lowered, all sorts of nonsensical stuff has been developed. It might take decades to fix all that.

Are we living the golden age then? next generation will have it really hard?

When I finished highschool in 2004 I thought the market was saturated. So I decided to study something else. That was a bit of a mistake.

Huge number bad programmer and decent amount jobs, looks like burble but capable programmer begin few.

I'd argue this is one of the few careers that *isn't* a bubble at this point, because it's hard to automate.

That is, unless you are a code-artisan-Stack Overflow-ninja.

How do I get a job with a good salary without a degree?

>he thinks its easy to get a junior programming job
HAHAHAHA NOPE 3+ YEARS INDUSTRY EXP REQUIRED FOR ENTRY LEVEL FAGGOT

>he doesn't do internships, bootcamps nor open source contributions
if you're not on a $120,000 salary right now it's entirely your fault

sell your ass
do plumbing
sell drugs
join the military

>getting on a $120k salary is easy!
>all you have to do is be willing to work for free, attend useless buzzword scam seminars, and be willing to work for free
>E A S Y

It's not working for free if it gets you a $120k salary *you wouldn't otherwise have*, you brainlet.

Yes. And the next generation will hate us for it and call us boomers.

Not that guy, but he's absolutely right. Unless you doubled in math and computer science from MIT, you're going to have to prove yourself in some way before anyone is going to hire you.

Why? Well, research how much it costs to crowdsource an application. After you pick your jaw up, compare that to whatever salary you think you "deserve" you special fucking snowflake.

Part of proving yourself is internships. This isn't the Y2K bubble when anyone could get a "programming" job. This is the Great Collapse.

Face it: Programmers aren't the magical creatures anymore. They're mechanics at best.

>payed

>Is programming a bubble
Not yet. Programming (as of now) can't be automated and tech is expanding faster than programmers can fill jobs. There are so many niche opportunities being created all the time due to tech being an absolute clusterfuck.

nope, the demand for programmers is real. I would say there's not enough good programmers.

We will automate every other job before we automate software development, then we'll still need programmers to support all the software that automates shit.

yeah dude, you need to make some effort in life to get anywhere, strange concept I know.

>a small sacrifice for big returns

Can't see what's wrong with that.

>so many niche opportunities

Can you expand on this please? I'm getting tired of competing with bots to snag a $15 testing slot that will take 10 hours to set up.

>tech is expanding faster than programmers can fill jobs
>but you're expected to jump through hoops like a circus freak to get your foot in the door
Makes perfect sense.

Ah, yes, my Bachelor degree with good marks and portfolio of projects I do in my spare time were both trivial. Didn't need to make any effort at all.

I love how nobody is addressing the companies requiring YEARS OF INDUSTRY EXP just to be considered for ENTRY LEVEL POSITIONS. Can't internship and portfolio your way around that conundrum.

>>tech is expanding faster than programmers can fill jobs
>>but you're expected to jump through hoops like a circus freak to get your foot in the door
>Makes perfect sense.

this is because the quality of CS students is all over the place, companies can't assume you're good just because you graduated. I've seen CS grads who can't program for shit, fizzbuzz is not just a meme you know.

What in the holy fuck do you think you get being an intern? Experience. So shove your caps lock up your ass and go be a bricklayer.

I refuse to believe you got a degree in anything you idiot. Must be American.

you apply anyways, people with YEARS OF INDUSTRY EXP are not applying to junior roles.

those crazy requirements are either just HR retardation or the role is going to someone internally but they still have to pretend they looked for other candidates.

If you loved programming, you'd be writing your own shit instead of bitching about not being handed your perfect meme job.

Pajeets crowdsource this shit for pennies. Move along.

>Programming (as of now) can't be automated
But it is already largely automated, what with the dependecy injections, inversion of control, abstract class factoryfactoryfactoryfactories and IDEs quessing what you want.

And that's okay. The actual thing that cannot be automatically generated is problems. It requires a human being to create a need. A need requires someone capable of turning it into a problem, machines are great a solving problems but not creating them.

>he doesn't get paid $5,500 in his internships
yep, you deserve it

>you can get years of experience from a position that by definition only lasts a few months at most
Look at the big brain on this faggot.

I have applied anyways. That's how I found out they were serious with the bullshit requirements.

I know some mechanics. First year apprentices literally have an easier time finding work than university qualified programmers these days.

>Look at the big brain on this faggot.
he probably earns more than you

For people who are in programming now, how would you get started, I see people suggesting WebDev as the easiest, but it seems to have quite a low ceiling. I have a job at the moment so I can pace my learning, my job is also management so that looks good on a CV I suppose, but I am really looking to have a possible way out of my job.

How long would it take to go from almost no programming to entry level programming (no degree). I can also save money for courses if it is deemed to be beneficial (I live in London)

So do most politicians. Means nothing, dipshit.

I actually don't understand how CS NEETs on Jow Forums can't get a job when my company is struggling to find good programmers. We hire juniors from all kinds of STEM backgrounds and train them up because there's not enough smart CS people.

What do they even teach CS monkeys these days?

well you either have a shit resume or you fuck up the interview. You should stop bitching and try improving yourself, no one is going to hand you your dream job just because you have a degree, any retard can get a degree.

What country is this supposed programmer shortage in?

Been polishing my resume and improving myself for years. You seriously think my first choice is bitching on an anonymous taiwanese fishing forum?

Can confirm, went direct from ATC to programming with no degree with a hobby portfolio and a GitHub with a myriad of small bugfix changes to small open source projects.

If you can string together a wee bit of logic ( if all widgets are wodgets and some wodgets are foobars, are some widgets foobars? (Provable Yes) vs if some widgets are wodgets and some wodgets are foobars, are some widgets foobars? (Inconclusive) and interview well you can get most any position.

Although if someone can fix my eyes I can dump this terribad Indian invested job and go back to a proper job.

Nice fallacy.

>claims his company is desperate
>immediately disappears when someone asks for details
Yet another lying cunt, I see.

I read somewhere that all of the programming graduates account for 1/6th of open jobs. The issue is that of those open jobs, not all are entry level. So there is still a need that new graduates need to fill, but the industry desperately needs senior people, and not all jobs are ones that you'd like to work just because they are open.

120k is not the norm in flyover states unless you are senior.

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In my experience less than 5% of programming jobs are entry level. Possibly less than 3%. The industry doesn't seem to understand that to get seniors, you need to train graduates.

Accept it. Work for entry level is gone. There is no company that wants to train a programmer, and a surplus of programmers makes the employer's market. Companies need seniors, which are few. Companies do not need copy-pasting-experts from stackoverflow.

>implying anyone wants to hire useless NEETs from Jow Forums
lmao

I doubt it's a bubble considering tech is the future and we're gonna need all the talented devs we can get. The market may be over saturated with devs but keep in mind more than half of these new devs are socially autistic or can't even solve a basic fizzbuzz.

If you're so concerned about competing with these devs, the simple answer is to be better than them. If you can solve basic algorithmic problems and shake hands while making eye contact then you already have a better shot than most.

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>muh crowdsorcing
>muh """deserve"""
If you don't have capital, don't start a business. Not my problem employers are inept/jews.

Programming bubble? No. Not yet at least.

Bubble of bootcamp/self-taught JR Developers with a year or less experience who can barely code anything outside the guidelines of an online tutorial? Yes.

We've had to hire 2 new developers over the last year, and my god, some of these newbie developers are absolutely terrible. Many of them don't even have portfolios.
Granted, there are some who are genuinely talented and actually very very good.

The bubble is in the hordes of people switching careers jumping onto the programming/tech bandwagon because they heard "anyone can code" and that you can get a high paying job in a couple months. These people ultimately either get lucky or fail hard.
As with anything, those who are best at it, are the ones who have a genuine passion and interest in programming and technology, rather than those who never wrote a line of code before their bootcamp and are just doing it to try to make money.

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>getting jobs easily

what are you even talking about?

programming is paying shit unless you're in Seattle, NY or Silicon Valley

>portfolios

hire them or don't, you fuck

anyone can look good in an interview and then shit the bed after their hired.

you don't necessarily need one for all types of programming positions, but it sure gives you an edge over others if you have something to show of your skills beyond words on a resume.

I'd rather just hire someone with a good portfolio and not have to bother with giving them a small project or technical assessment to determine if they can really do what they say they can do.

This bubble only applies to (((coders))) who have no knowledge of underlying hardware and mechanics. Code monkeys, who learned one language because it's popular.
I think those who went to CS and are truly passionate don't have to worry as they are not tied to one technology and can do both C and C#.

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that's your fault then for being a shitty interviewer

anything on an oil rig

Are there good tech jobs on oil rigs?

Could you define a "good" portfolio?

people can also fabricate portfolios. sounds like you didn't do your fucking job and got what you deserved.

kek'd, checked and /thread'ed

>the quality of CS students is all over the place
I have had people with a 4 year degre in computer science come to interviews and not be able to explain why you would want the id field in a database.

>programming is paying shit unless you're in Seattle, NY or Silicon Valley
Even in bum fuck no where it is good pay. Everything is relative.

The key is to give them a real project, feature, bug to fix, then monitor them closely, with code review at the end.

>making me work for free
I'll laugh my ass out of the interview room.

Populations increasing and as time goes on more third world countries will see their poor be brought into the digital world, not too late

not really

google around for examples of developer portfolios. You'll see a wide range, and it's easy to see what a "good" one looks like.

it's easier to fabricate a resume than a portfolio. with the latter you can usually at least see some of the code.

i agree, that's the ideal way to screen an interviewee's skill in most cases.


Guys, really, it's not that hard. Most of it is pure common sense.
Would you rather hire:
>Person A: good stuff on resume, interviewed well, great personality, did well on a small test project, no portfolio (or a plain one) and no github and little to no examples of other things they've programmed in their lives.
>Person B: same good stuff on resume, interviewed well, great personality, also did well on a small test project, has a good portfolio, a relatively active github, and demos/examples of a couple things they've created.

Both may have the same skills and whatnot, but person B has more to show that they can do what they say they can do on their resume, and shows more drive and passion to create (among other things).

Probably makes sense to lean toward hiring person B.

REGARDLESS, person B, has a portfolio and presence of some kind that a potential employer can see prior to even deciding to bring them in for an interview. It's also about presence and visibility. Person A might as well blend in with the other 50 people in the stack of resumes with nothing else to show.

Bottom line, having a decent portfolio of some kind AT THE VERY LEAST increases your chances of being noticed among other applicants, thus increases your chance at landing an interview and a job.

>work for free
If you view it this way then University is paying for the opportunity to work.

Most mechanics are idiots who can't understand control systems or engine control units.

I've seen the opposite actually
a lot of businesses in my region are hilariously underpaying devs at 25-35kUSD

Midwest?

yeah, in about Ohio
I know one of the main contributors behind a major POS system, he's been at it for over a decade and he doesn't even make over 50k

bank robber

I think it is. The world needs more software, but I refuse to believe that the current hysterical screeching for more and more webshitters is going to last long.

>What in the holy fuck do you think you get being an intern? Experience
>he didn't get paid for his internship

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The reality is that everything is saturated.

This, in general the vast majority of programming jobs pay what a tradesman apprentice would make. People who specialize in something however get paid more just like a tradesman who specializes in something can demand more money otherwise you're making $25/hr or so as a developer in most areas.

Silicon Valley is an exception, because they specifically overpay new graduates in order to keep them from competitors. So Faceberg and Jewggle will sweep into the graduating CMU class and offer up giant salaries just so they can have these people doing brain dead work anybody else can do but it keeps them out of the hands of competitors so they can make their monopoly stronger.

>$25/hr
try $11-$13/hr for entry level devs

Make your own job, start a business or service. The biggest redpill is there are no jobs, 90% aren't advertised. Almost all jobs are exclusively changed hands with the same people within the industry network, never advertised outside of it.

I'm not sure, but what I am sure of is that you sound like a massive fucking faggot. I'd tell you to shove your ellipses up your ass but you'd probably enjoy that, faggot.

4 years from now when I (hopefully) have my Bachelorette degree in computer science, will all jobs be occupied? From reading this thread it seems to be pretty difficult even now

I think user might have been talking about different new languages, frameworks and technologies popping up alongside the usual stuff like java or c++.

> if all widgets are wodgets and some wodgets are foobars, are some widgets foobars? (Provable Yes)

but that's wrong

If all cats are animals and some animals are elephants, are some cats elephants?

anyway, so when do I start?

There's a strong venture capitalist and startup culture among cs grads so I think it will always be decent.

the best candidates don't have portfolios because they spend their time getting paid to create intellectual property for someone, not doing stupid developer tricks for you to look at online

Why are you so angry?

cute pic

The world is not as just as you believe it is.

What area are you in?

lol what? i just mean that post describes a badly flawed interview process where the best "perception manager" is always going to come out ahead of the most honest, dedicated and meritorious candidate

Yes, programming is a bubble

Have you ever even worked you neet fuck?

it's not a bubble, more as a problem that needs to be solved. The costs of developing software and the salaries of programmers are seen as too high by many in the business world, so there's an awful lot of money being put into technologies, policies, etc, to change that fact.

BUT like a good techie you COULD just move on to the next super high paying high demand field. So why don't you go learn just a little bit about cybersecurity and do coding for those things and well, your job will be safe for a long long time because everyone's' right shit at that right now.

You're still looking at it like an idiot. Business people are going to do what they do best - maximize profits. If they can get something cheaper they damn well will. So rather than complaining make sure you're the better value option. Make sure your salary is worth its every penny.

>even a junior can get easly a job with a good salary without a degree...

are you a retard?, programming is like playing music or practicing an sport , everybody can do it as hobby or amateur level. But you won't compete in the market if you are a brainlet monkey unable to fit a line in a set of points.

this, and there are tons of jobs monkeys can't do , specially on firmware and real data sciences.

I have had people with years of industry experience who couldn't implement min().

Like, literally, "how would you find the smallest element in an unsorted array"?

>If you can string together a wee bit of logic
So not you then.

There are a lot of people in the industry that are underperforming intentionally because the majority of their coworkers have set the bar very low. Eventually the weak will be culled and the people most "deserving" of those jobs will be rewarded, that is if they can stop being lazy for more than one day at a time. I don't mean to toot my own horn, but ever since I was capable of accomplishing things without falling back on trial and error, I've reduced the hours that I do actual work by like 75%, because everyone else is just that slow

I know you're right. I don't know how to do that though. I can solve problems, do math, program, but I don't know what problems people have, or how to sell them solutions.

I'm a diesel mechanic and I make about 30/hr with 9 years experience. I'm pretty sure even shit programmers make more than that with much less time on the job. On the other hand, I don't have to learn much anymore and I get physical exercise from the job.

>unpaid internships
What shithole??

Get back to your grease monkey.

It's already difficult to get a job
You ARE boomers

have fun losing your job at 31 when they hire a 3 fresh grads to replace you for less than your salary. You're the niggers of tech

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>physical exercise from the job
As a software dev I miss the physical activity of retail

I don't understand why you would both with a programming job when you could make yourself much more valuable by mastering a program like Excel. Regards who don't know how to use pivot tables will worship you.