Are CS careers actually this oversaturated?

Average is just getting the degree without doing side projects or anything else non-school related to help build your resume.

That's below-average. The average candidate is better than a student with no other experience besides their degree.

>38/38 coding challenges rejected
only places like youtube can afford diversity hires
burn them down

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I applied to 8 places and got 2 interviews and 1 offer. Bretty guud

whats your resume look like ?

go back to Jow Forumsebbit

School, my capstone projects, and my 2 jobs I had in unrelated fields

>2
do you mind if i ask what school ?

Low skill are abundant. If you have any skill/knowledge/experience, you're well ahead of the pack

Entry tech jobs are filled with bigbox store junk now.

Mid tier stuff is being poorly farmed out overseas where it is done horribly but the moneymen don't understand this or what it really costs them because it looks good to shareholders in the short term.

So it leaves upper end stuff they can't fill because they tack on unrelated qualifications HR copies off google or nobody has the 10 years experience in languages that have only been around 5 years. (and yes that is a real example but I probably fudged the number of years)

actually, 7 onsite and 4 offer means the tech market is super hot right now.

SOMEWHAT CORRECT. PEOPLE THINK CS=MEGABUX BUT IT METABUX

i applied to maybe 20-25 internships last fall, got 5 call backs, 2 second round interviews. one led to an internship. that internship has since led to a pretty well paying for the area job offer.
it's not some big name company and i didn't have to answer any stupid leetcode/hackerrank/invert a binary tree questions. i just applied to whoever was hiring in the area because ultimately i just want a job that pays enough and has me do something i enjoy.

i think people that complain about over-saturation are people that are mediocre but dont realize theyre mediocre

Are you looking for a reason not to study or to drop out? CS is one of the best degrees if you're looking for a job.

what website lets me make the flow diagrams?

There is a shortage of competent programmers.
If you are not in the top fraction then you'd better be charismatic or you're going to have a hard time.

paint

How can you guys not realize that the number of jobs available is not the only factor to consider in this situation?

>Resume quality
If you write a big turd as a resume, they will just pick someone else. Try to emphasize on the skills needed on the job description and mention them. For each element, describe a real life situation that you used that skill (even if not in the same field). Most of the time skill are tranposable... Eg: Canditate must be responsible = I like increasing responsibilities/I was managing the night shift alone at restaurant x[...]

>Social skills
How many of you went in person to shake hands and give their resume? I don't give a fuck if you are shy, it will only take a couple minutes and you will get used to it. It double your chances...

>Check for jobs online
You will need to send hundred copies of your resume if you don't target the compagnies that actually need you.

There is so much more... Confidence is key. Be prepared, know what you are talking about and stop making shit resume. Stop trying and actually go get that job...

People think that they can do the minimum and get big money in CS.

But in reality, you are competing against everybody else is the field. If you are an expert, say a phd in a hot or needed field like AI/ML then you are making big bucks. If you are highly competent then you make big bucks. If you barely passed your CS from a middle tier college with nothing to show for it then you are not gonna get anywhere because why would anyone hire you when they can hire another guy for the same price who's gonna be 2x more productive?

this

If there are more people competing for jobs than there are jobs, then by definition no shortage of labor exists.

This philosophy applies to any college major.

People think hey I got a degree with a 3.8 GPA why is that not good enough to do nothing and make $100K??????

Maybe that worked in the 90s, but almost everybody has a degree. My Manager personally told me he doesn't even look over resumes. He just interprets a person's knowledge in person. He doesn't believe in the education system because it does nothing but teach kids how to memorize things to pass a test, and then they forget about 90% of it and move on to the next class.

I find it funny because ever since the government started subsidizing student loans, you basically need a degree to be a Manager at McDonald's. Back when I was graduating high school, I went into banking. I did personal banking, loan financing, etc. Now everything requires a degree or a special certification, loaned out by the government.

Meanwhile in Europe they will take anyone with 2 arms because they're so desperate
Salary is meh though

a shortage of competent labour can still exist.

if you hired a stupid person to work on your code it's actually possible to add more work than to reduce it.

So it's not entirely impossible if you are willing to make some semantic adjustment.

In reality though, what's happening is the media is spamming it so the monied class can import pajeets and changs. This is not a problem if you are top 10% but if you are an average Dave then it;s your own damn fault/

Job security > salary

>desperate
>Salary is meh
why do European companies do this? can't they afford paying more to retain top talent?

>guy sends out almost 200 applications for CS internships
>>>>>retard sends half of them to non-tech sector
>media keeps saying that there's a shortage of programmers
>>>>>huge chunk of rejections come from having a bad resume and being unable to code

I have extremely low standards for hiring, and I mean EXTREMELY low, but I still reject stupid people and people who cannot program. Unfortunately, that means about 99.5% of all CS applicants.

Pic related. This is what the typical CS job applicant looks like

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There’s definitely a shortage of skilled, experienced programmers. I work at one of the top 5 tech companies with about one year experience and get 2 recruiters messaging me a day for jobs. I can only imagine what my manager with 10 years experience gets.

Nobody wants a fucking intern, they can’t do anything and slow down the senior engineers. But my entire career was built on those internships so you gotta do what you gotta do.

Not exactly sure. I literally hear bosses complain all the time about how hard it is to find developers but they still pay like shit. No wonder the top ones go abroad. No wonder we don't have huge successful IT companies like FB/Google yet

Alright, I'll bite. I'm an academic computer scientist looking to become a professor once I get my PhD. Part of my job will be to educate the very individuals who are applying for jobs with people like you.

How do we make sure our students are up to snuff? How can we get them to actually retain what they have learned instead of forgetting how to do a for loop 4 years down the line?

You can't get skilled, experienced programmers if you don't hire interns.

Jesus. I'm a self taught retard who's never read a book in their life with less than 4 months practice and most of this made me cringe.

Give me a second, I have a list of thinggies somewhere.

This, but America is fucked anyway. We're way past that stage. There's a big gaping hole in the junior level where there's simply a lack of appropriate talent. Well not that it matters anymore. They're just moving offices to India now. We thought it was stopping for a while but now it's back in full force and a lot of big companies are looking to cut down on big US offices.

There is a shortage. Most people are unqualified.

Imagine if everyone you know applied for a position as a doctor and there were no medical school degrees so you had to interview everyone. Of course all of them are going to get rejected, that doesn't mean there isn't a shortage of doctors.

>Social skills
>How many of you went in person to shake hands and give their resume? I don't give a fuck if you are shy, it will only take a couple minutes and you will get used to it. It double your chances...

Gonna stop you there grandpa. A lot of companies tell you not to do this. I think its junk to as person to person is more valuable but I've known of companies that will trash your resume for not following directions to keep it online only. You need to be careful with this these days. At least in the US maybe other countries still allow people to be humans.

> Stop trying and actually go get that job...
This is pretty meaningless. I've gotten a job from aggressive tactics before, but its not always a matter of not trying hard enough. Some places have no idea what they need to hire for, some towns are small with high competition, some hire by a checklist that doesn't weight categories, etc. The pull yourself up by your bootstrap mentality is highly counter to a lot of corporate culture and selection process right now.

Not saying your way is wrong, I'ld prefer it, it just doesn't fit in with a lot of larger companies now and can easily backfire.

There's a shortage of homegrown talent in the US, which is why we're starting to see so many Asians getting jobs over whites.
It's not about race/ethnicity, but more about culture and background. All Asian cultures are heavily focused on education, and when people immigrate to this country they KNOW they have to work hard to secure a good life for themselves. Compare that to your average American (white, brown, Chinese, etc.) and you'll see a big difference. The people that are second+ generation Americans barely give a fuck. Their families are well established and they've had relatively comfortable lives forever.

Anyone you meet that says Indians/Chinese get hired for any other reason is mad because they can't find a job or they're getting paid less.

Our of curiosity, do you have the entire list of questions?

I'm a okay programmer with a lot of drive and amazing social skills. Got an interview and a starting job for 80K burgers right out of college. Remember, it's not about what you know, it's about who you know.
Start being social and meeting people in the field. Go to events around and be self aware and confident. I believe in you, anons.

Don’t listen to him, he lives in vietnam and offers a low salary, of course the applicants are stupid.

Alright Prof. user, take a look at these items. Please make sure that your students understand these concepts, and can solve them with copy/pasting from their friends or Google.

-Give them tests, but add some random numbers so they cannot copy in class.
>Student A: Write a loop to print all the numbers from 0-10 in ascending order.
>Student B: Write a loop to print all the numbers from 10-25 in ascending order.
>Student A: Write a loop to print all the numbers from 10-0 in descending order.
-Check their homework to make sure no one copies.
-Give them projects, and ask them to explain the code in person.

Most importantly: Fail them if they fail. Keep failing them if they fail, till they learn their lessons, or they move away to sociology or journalism.

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I'm not even a fujo but I swear those two must be fags.

Use inkscape.

Full list here. If you can finish ULTRA EASY question 7, you are better than 99.5% of all programming job applicants.

My "hire if they can answer this" question is Very easy question 1. No joke.

Attached: EntryLevelJobQuestions.png (4592x2292, 1.65M)

the fucking numbers don't add up, how did he fail 38 mother fucking coding challenges. This nigger can't code

Hey man I'm not studying CS, but I have to wonder, how can people who have graduated with degrees not know this stuff? I mean I've spent a few hours reading a python book and I feel like I could do some of the easier questions, but it's unimaginable to me that someone who attended school for 4 years and has a degree is not able to solve these.
Isn't this literally the main point of their degree?

Because he's likely a larping faggot that just wants to make excuses for not being able to get a job and/or wants to discourage other soon to be grads

The answer is because that tripfag lives in a literal third world shithole, that's how.

was in an interview a few weeks ago and was asked about java data types bc i said it was my strongest language. said there were 8 primitives, listed the ones i remembered. then the guy asked what kind of data type an int was.. i said a primitive. asked me to go on.. i said its negative/positive whole number. asked again what kind of data type it was, i said primitive, but there is also an integer class object in some JREs. dude asked me if thats all. i said yea, i think so. then he said lets move on.. was this guy trolling me?

>Isn't this literally the main point of their degree?
Yes, it is.

But it is not the main objective of many students. Many (most?) students go to university to party. They do not pay attention in class, copy/paste their homework, cheat on exams, and graduate with a piece of paper and zero knowledge.

FizzBuzz article was done by an American. Every programming interviewer who has discussed this here has agreed with the finding of FizzBuzz, which is that 99.5% of programming applicants cannot code at all.

I've hear similar stories even in the US though. I remember hearing some of the big tech companies like google basically coming out and saying "the value of a cs degree is not that high, because it isn't actually an indication of whether or not someone can program"

Google won't even give you a phone interview without a degree or 10+ years of experience.

This. If you haven't developed anything interesting 100% by yourself by the time you have graduated with a CS degree then

1. you are a fuckup

2. you wasted the last 3-4 years of your life

3. you appear to everyone as a fucking moron beta bitch who doesn't even know if he likes development because he's never done it. Why would you want to do a job you have never experienced? Did your mommy tell you to?

4. you lack intelligence because you didn't realize degrees don't get you jobs, personal connections do

5. If you are spamming out applications then you don't know what the fuck you want to do or can do, so you come off as more of a moronic noob who can't provide any value

I know someone who dropped out of CC and got a job at google, although he was doing QA work and I'm not sure exactly how technical/competitive that is.

Uhhhhh. Maybe I should switch life paths into becoming a programmer. I do this shit as a hobby, but maybe I should be getting paid, holy shit.

There's only a few questions that I have no idea how to do and I am by far a complete and utter novice when it comes to this shit. Can people that actually do this for a living or that have actually studied not do complete most of these? How?

Interesting Google would say this, when companies like them are one of the most reasons why we have hoards of morons declaring and graduating school with cs degrees in the first place. As this guy saidThey also recruit strongly out of the top universities in the country. Gee sure is interesting they think degrees are so worthless yet feel the need to scoop up cs grads from a selective handful of schools. If they're so worthless why do that then?

The field is oversaturated because millions upon millions of normalfags saw that you can get paid $30 an hour to write code and writing code isn't that hard when universities will pass any dumb fuck that can at least do a "hello world."
Couple that with the massive corporate pandering to SJW nonsense and a multitude of non-jobs that barely have anything to do with actually writing code and you have an over-saturated market with everyone hopping on the bandwagon because they either want to get paid big money to do jack shit or live in a liberal tax-prison where the cost of living is batshit insane, or both.

Basically, there actually is a shortage of PROGRAMMERS. By which I mean that there is a shortage of people that know how to properly write, format, document, debug, and test code.
People that go into STEM with an associates or even bachelor's degree don't know how to program worth a fuck.
It's piss easy to get a STEM degree from a state university so fucking everyone has one.
Companies are likely receiving hundreds of thousands of applications. If you're new to the field, you have to compete with a fuckload of other people. Even if you know what you're doing and actually give a shit, you're still dealing with a field in which companies simply don't trust people. They're getting fucked over by "diverse" staff, so they hire internally.

STEM is oversaturated in the same way that McDonalds is oversaturated.
When a new McDonalds opens, they receive THOUSANDS of applications.
There's no shortage of McDonalds workers, but there is a shortage of people that won't get your order wrong.

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The fact that people don't know how to do fisher-yates is beyond me. Even if you don't know how to do fisher-yates, just saying "just give me literally any algorithm to shuffle an array" should usually result in something that is equivalent to fisher-yates. You might think, "oh, this can't be a good shuffle, it's too simple", but it fucking works.

>How?
Because But maybe things will change in the future, if we have Prof user from helping future students graduate with actual skills.

not really if you think about it.

Get hired for 50k. 10% pay raise every year.

Get hired for 100k. Company goes bankrupt after 1 year you lose your job. Get new job leveraging previous salary making 100k or more.

Clearly salary will win unless you lack the skills to get a new job

he was probably a clueless HR cuck

>Job security is irrelevant if you have the skills to get a new job every time.
Thank you, captain obvious.

I'm in my Junior year in CS, and I feel pretty confident with this list. What gives? Why do I keep hearing that so many people cant do this when they have a CS degree?

I would ordinarily agree with you, but he said he ended up taking an offer from LinkedIn. LinkedIn's interview questions are notoriously some of the toughest in the industry. They are ridiculous.

I'm calling bullshit. I've gotten very few callbacks because I fucked around and didn't do internships or Open Source work. The few "entry level" interviews I've had have asked questions like "how would you implement a dictionary structure for this situation" or "write a program that finds all combinations for any user input" which I didn't fucked up because I didn't account for the stack overflowing.

some parties may be interested in lulling competent would-be professionals into a false sense of superiority, and effectively stifling their advancement

>I'm calling bull.
You can't. It has been 11 years:

blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/
>26 Feb 2007
>2007

The fact that 99.5% of programming applicants cannot program AT ALL has been documented for the last 11 years.

probably didn't get a job because
1. they're a redditor
2. they have enough time to make this graph rather then try to self-improve / read up on interview tips / personal projects / cv / resume

The fuck is GIGO?

Nr 6. Check if you divide something with 2. If the result is not an integer than it is an odd number. (By comparing integer division and real division)

Don't fall for the memes. The biggest lie they tell you is that a degree will get a job. Being actually good at shit that will make them money is what will get you a job, and the degree doesn't prove that.

I'm finishing my degree but Im also getting certs on the side, applying to co-ops, and hopefully will have an internship by grad.

From what I can see, it's about breaking in to the industry. My break in point I'm thinking is gonna be cybersecurity

>How many of you went in person to shake hands and give their resume?
how many times have you been told to fuck off and apply online?

>programming applicants
Programming applicants aren't programmers.

tl;dr for this thread:

you suck at programming
go develop something useful and interesting

and no, some nerdy algorithmic wankery checked into your git repo is neither of those adjectives
make it something a person can interact with, like a web app and fucking deploy it

the only real software engineer in the thread right here

It sucks for new hires. No one wants to pony up to find good candidates and train them. That's someone else's job. Plus the shear amount of people applying doesn't help. Everyone applies to every single job when they are new.

I had a 3.85 Major GPA. Worked programming for two years during college and had an internship with a defense contractor. I got 1 interview for 60 applications. And I knew EVERYTHING they needed for the job, no training need (besides internal stuff). Yet they just hired 4 people who are going to do basic stuff, writing Python and using git all day, and only one of them knows both. One knows neither. It's a total shitfest.

he was hiring manager/lead java developer indian dude who walked in the room pissed off, and when i asked how his day was said, "uhh, lets just get this started."

yeah the graph don't say shit. We just watched someone strike out on applying for a job. Just one. Real insightful

The company I work at is hiring, but for only 55k in Silicon Valley, which is an almost unlivable wage here unless you’re fine living in a house with 4-6 other people.

You failed because this wouldn't work in any strongly typed language where the variables are not floating point integers. Also multiple calculations to compare integer and "real" division is inefficient.

From what I see as an external observer (not murican), looks like CS students in the US get their head filled with theoretical knowledge, but half of them can't write two lines of code to save their lives.
So the first thing I'll say is practice - give your students programming exercises. Big ones, with lots of coding. Have them build things from the ground up with increasing difficulty. Have an army of TAs review their code and fuck them hard in their grades for doing stupid shit.
Have the graded assignments be a bigger portion of the grade, about 50%, and have the exams test more for theoretical knowledge, since the practice of writing code and not forgetting a colon was already covered in the assignments.
Teach your students to think in different levels. From some clever bit manipulation in C to closures. They should be equipped with a toolbox which they can apply to a new problem in front of them.
Make sure they have decent mathematical foundation. Some set theory, formal logic, combinatorics and probabilty + statistics will take them a long way
Keystone projects - Some big ass undertakings for your students for the end of their program. Force them to take two (not in the same time, too much work load)

Dude. US college students aren't writing their own code, that won't help. How do you think I afforded liquor in college?

Can I compensate with a large beard and mildly antagonistic personality?

maybe the west coast should stop hiring from that 99.5%. my gf's cousin is a sjw that got a bachelors in international studies and masters in communication, and got a job as front end JS developer with 0 experience for 100k in seattle

100k is fairly low in Seattle. Microsoft and Amazon start at 160k.

I would wager it stands for garbage in garbage out, but I've never seen that put as GIGO, nor does it sound like a programming concept. Sure if you feed a program garbage it won't act coherently, but that's not really a tenet of anything. Just common sense.
I'm self taught though, so perhaps there's some course dedicated to telling kids that if their data is shit their results will be shit, too.
Seems like the kind of class where those needing to take it are already beyond its ability to help.

fact is she still encourages other idiots to apply for those jobs. she was clearly a diversity hire because she is 'middle eastern' (white than me as 3rd gen pole though) and a woman

>count down from 700 to 200 in decrements of 13
>500 isn't divisible by 13
So what do you do when you're at 201? Just stop?

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FizzBuzz has been documented for 11 years. The need for people to learn about garbage-in-garbage-out has been documented for... more than 100 years.

>On two occasions I have been asked, — "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
>Charles Babbage, 1864
>1864

Like this, bruh:
for (let i = 700; i > 200; i -= 13) { console.log(i); }