Vue, react, and so on

>PHP
no.

>they are slow as fucking shit and have more bugs than the old versions.
I found them work faster than older versions.

>It is all unnecessary. It is literally easier to just use straight javascript and bind values manually.
Good luck rewriting gmail or some more advance apps functionality to JS(+ Jquery?). You'll quickly go back to react + redux or develop similar view library on your way.
Also make sure it's compatible with various browsers, so you'll have to write your own polyfills. And don't forget to write everything in one file and obfuscate your code(to reduce it's size and speed) if you don't want to use webpack.

What did you expect? These tools are meant for large, complex projects, not for quickly writing hello world.

>PHP
haha

>you can add (vanilla!) JS for Ajax calls and such. So that the JS is a layer and your sites would work perfectly fine when someone deactivates your scripts.
You can write React apps that work without JS. That's what server side rendering is for.
Also you'll change your mind when you'll want to have proper state management and will have observers spaghetti to update various parts of the site on some events.

Angular is relatively complex though. However things like React or Redux are literally just dozen functions each. They are unbelievably simple when compared to how much time and code they can save you.

I am many levels above you and your enterprise trash programming. It is complex not from the end user who is tasked with creating some minor feature on Facebook, but in terms of its architectural impact.

No, it is the perfect place for raw JavaScript, not 6 billion live framework.

Google maps and gmail were written in pure JavaScript before gmail was ported to meme framework retard.

No, updating the dom manually thousands of times is not the perfect place for raw javascript.
Having a virtual DOM and rerendering only pieces of a web page is the perfect place for react.

At best you could use jQuery, but then you load the same amount of "bloat" JS anyway, making this entire argument pointless

You have literally no idea what you are talking about and are therefore the perfect candidate for these frameworks.

Where did I claimed otherwise?
You can write your code straight in asm and wasm, but it will take much longer and will be significantly harder. And you will mostly likely develop utils and helper function way more complex than that dozen of React and Redux functions. They are not broken by design, they perform way better at every level than implementing same functionality on your own.
Also gmail and maps are not best usecase, they are pretty static. Things like Facebook or other real time systems are where these frameworks are most useful.

React virtual dom is only necessary because it is framework that has no knowledge of what the programmer is doing so it diffs before and after change of entire HTML. A programmer can just create the specific changes with plain JavaScript and it is much faster.

>diffs before and after change of entire HTML
It doesn't. It has knowledge of what the programmer is doing thanks to states and props of components, if they don't change the underlying DOM won't change as well. Additionally you use keys inside lists of components to allow moving whole elements instead of doing diffs.

> I never worked on a team
> I never worked on big projects
> I never worked
thanks op, now we know. keep up with your jquery

not an argument

Yes but it is a generic solution to avoid bottlenecks because it doesn’t know the specific thing the programmer is doing. As the million tests out there show, it is a lot slower than handcrafted JavaScript. It was just marketed to retards as faster, so they come in here and repeat the marketing because programming is now 99% amateurs.

At the end of the day, the algorithm has to recreate a dom and compare it to current dom so it is slower than just making the specific changes with JavaScript.

Your argument shows you have no idea what you are talking about and are repeating marketing like a good boy. A programmer can change the specific HTML but faster because he doesn’t have to create a virtual dom and compare it with the current virtual dom and then create the changes in the actual dom.

Your jquery comment is too retarded to even address.

>Yes but it is a generic solution to avoid bottlenecks because it doesn’t know the specific thing the programmer is doing. As the million tests out there show, it is a lot slower than handcrafted JavaScript
Just like your processor. Asm is faster than C, it doesn't matter Asm is better pick for every C projects.
If you've ever worked on larger project, you'd know that performance is not the most important factor in software and web apps. It doesn't matter that your site uses 25% less RAM, if you have to spend twice or trice as much money/time to develop it. Especially when your approach doesn't scale well, and breaks down when you want to hire more devs.

>It was just marketed to retards as faster, so they come in here and repeat the marketing because programming is now 99% amateurs.
No one claims that any framework is faster than the base language itself.

>At the end of the day, the algorithm has to recreate a dom and compare it to current dom so it is slower than just making the specific changes with JavaScript.
It doesn't. I've already explained how it works above.

>it doesn't matter Asm is better pick for every C projects.
it doesn't mean Asm is better pick for every C projects*

You don't even understand the purpose of state or how it works, and what the ENTIRE PURPOSE of frameworks like react is.

And then you just say "you don't know what you are talking about" and use the word programmer as if setting innerHTML makes you a "programmer"

lmfao, kys for real dude.

Have fun writing 10 changes to innerHTML for every single interaction, B-but I saved 0.001nanoseconds, so it was worth it!

I dunno why people shit on react here, I’m not that into /web dev/ shit but I use react when ever I have to

Makes it really easy to make a modular site that doesn’t look like it was made by Richard stallman

>that doesn’t look like it was made by Richard stallman
Tell me what's wrong with pic related. You literally can't.

Attached: 425635653.png (1234x1203, 190K)

P U R E
It's the Jesus of websites.

>I have never had to maintain a large project or work with another programmer in my life so I'm going to talk out my ass and spout muh performance memes

typical Jow Forums programmer

Phoenix LiveView obsoletes front-end frameworks for most applications.
youtu.be/Z2DU0qLfPIY?t=929

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I love Angular. Y'all need to git gud rather than bitching in an online anonymous chinese cartoon forum.

>>PHP
>haha
PHP and NodeJS programmers deciding who is retarded
:^)

Angular2 is reasonable fast. It's a fully fledged framework unlike react or that chinkjs. You do lots of asny stuff so that your browser does not hang. It is complex for the causal frontend faggot who never programmed anything besides Javascript. Once you understand it, you'll see it's beauty.

Angular 2 doesn't even exist anymore

>It's a fully fledged framework
You say 'bloated' as if it's a feature

Yeah, I'm just used to call it angular2 because I used to program with angularjs.

I literall cannot understand what are those frameworks for, like what cant i do just using HTML,CSS and JS for DOM Manipulation + node for backend that i can do with React?

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Wrong, its module based. It's only bloated if you make it eg importing every module or modules you don't even need. Basically don't be a retard and manage your dependencies.

>ES5 compatible
>No polyfills
>No JSX
>No tooling required
>Includes routing, XHR
>Optional testing framework and streams included
>8kb

stop using bloated botnet frameworks like Angular and React and see the light

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enjoy some vanilla creativity:
codepen.io/GottZ/pen/KGLPwy

Nobody wants to write ecma5

angular is curry
react is onions
vue is burnouts
You should see the applicants I get

i prefer es6 as well but you'd be surprised by the # of companies still supporting ancient browsers

plz invent react for professionals then. i'm sick of this too. oh wait.. glimmerjs

isn't it angular519823471 now with 1389173259871240871234 breaking changes?

Why would you think there's anything you can do with React that you can't do with plain HTML/CSS/JS? React is implemented using those, the idea of something it can do that they can't is just silly.
What React provides is tools to do the same things more efficiently. If you don't use React (or similar) you're going to end up reimplementing half of it anyway on any large project.
Say there's a button you regularly want to add to the page in various places, so rather than typing out the JS to stick it together from say name + icon URL + callback every time, you create a function that takes those three and returns the string HTML representing the customized button. You've basically just made a React component but harder to read and use. You have a list of widgets and you want the user to be able to interact with some of them while you might remove/re-render others, so you implement a system to keep track of which is which and only add/remove/update what's needed, leaving everything else alone. You've just reimplemented React's partial updating except probably far more brittle and case specific.

Do you get any plain JS people

Have you heard of babel?

xhr is obsolete. use fetch.

>want to make a visible div only when the correct type of input is selected in the form
>JS
>make the div invisible in CSS
>make it visible with getElement by ID if etc. etc. etc.
>React
>CREATE THIS APP.JS
>THEN THIS OTHER FILE
>THEN EXPORT THE RENDER
>THEN CREATE THE FUNCTION
>THEN EXPORT THE FUCTION TO THAT FILE YOU EXPORTED

Fucking mess, why do people use this

It's angular7. But there's an official update guide for every version to every version.

Because I want to make more than a div that changes visibility.

>except probably far more case specific.
and that's a good thing

Why

7 already?! desu the last time i checked it was 5

lol. upgrade guide.. dood.. don't make me cringe.. you people even forked ember-cli and dozen of it's concepts to finally be semi-stable. stop implying angular is industry ready.

Attached: Hahahuha+they+use+the+memes+xdddd+rofl+_7080fca9a0382d9f2c3706ff9c468920.png (347x271, 50K)

Because I need more than that for the project at hand. It's different tools for different jobs.
If I just want to make some quick and dirty form for personal use, I don't even use JS, just HTML + backend.
If I want to make some little experiment or very limited web page I use plain HTML/CSS/JS.
If I need to make a large project with lots of complex components (especially if it's intended for somebody else to use) I use React because I don't really enjoy endlessly reinventing the wheel.

Lmao, fuck off brainlet. Go work on your play projects, the big boys don't have time for your shit. Gotta work on enterprise stuff.

why so salty? are you currently trying to upgrade your dependencies and figured out your unit tests all fail in your angular project? must be fun to be you.

Please post one thing that just NEEDS react instead of plain HTML/CSS/JS

react and angular don't need to render into the dom. they could also render into native components. see react-native or nativescript for example.
but i agree.. it's bloated af

I've tried both and I wouldn't want to use plain HTML/CSS/JS for anything with say, more than two pages/screens/whatever you wanna call them.

did you know some codebases are still in ES5?

God damn. React is hard. That's why there's so much fucking hate on it. I've been a web dev for 6 years, just started picking up react to get up to date. Add redux? Fughetaboutit! Brain tumor*3.

I feel like I'm 9 years old struggling with HTML and CSS

you should be using buble you mongoloid

I heard vue is a bit easier than both, is it true?

look above this comment ^

fetch is not a complete replacement for XHR, and all fetch polyfills use XHR behind the scenes anyway.

> all fetch polyfills use xhr behind the scenes anyway

please rm -rf yourself.

ok let me look...

> I heard vue is a bit easier than both, is it true?

Its about the same level of difficulty as React IMO, but worth a try.

why do you get so angry at facts?

I actually learnt angular and cannot imagine working without it now, the framework just makes everything so much easier and nicer - if you disagree then please show me how you would go about building url guards, typed http requests or bindings using plain vanilla Javascript without ending up with a mini framework of your own.

strawman fallacy

>ITT fags who can't write a single line of js without stackoverflow on the usefulness of react

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>a state manager,
case 'ACTION_TIC':
return Object.assign({}, universe, {
seconds: universe.seconds + 1
})

Why this waste of resources trying to emulate haskell's immutability? Since you hold a global state object, why not just mutate it? Can web devs be any more retarded?

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> React
> Hard
kek

> Redux
Use graphql / apollo when possible, redux indeed sucks

>Use graphql / apollo when possible
The fuck? Isn't Apollo a network serializing library? How is that a replacement for a state manager?

why would anyone use jsp, jsf since there are plenty of cool view engines which are more elastic and eficient

i'm not angry at facts.. you just don't seem to realize there is no fetch if there is no fetch so obviously xhr is being used as polyfill

ihatejsf.com/

>using angular
>not using angular DART

>using angular

>omg %framework% is so bloat!! like 30kb of js when built for production!

meanwhile..........

>doesn't code split, adding an entire 2mb to every user's visit, loading all the fucking bullshit they'll never open
>doesn't minify code properly, using dead code elimination etc, adding 300kb to each visit
>doesn't minify images properly, and doesn't use a CDN, adding multiple seconds to each visit
>uses some shitty back-end like wordpress or something slow like rails, adding 150ms to each visit
>hosts his site on his $2.50/month server in USA that is slow as shit and has no CDN because he doesn't trust any hosting company that will use a CDN because they are also "bloat"
>wrote all his code by himself, didn't install anything, and now has a buggy mess and it took him 5 times as long to write everything
>complains about it on a chinese basket weaving forum of all things

This is you.

>codes only native apps
>everything is fast
>gui doesn't break due to retarded browser-dependent CSS rules.
>everything works as expected.
>will continue to work as expected unless the whole OS is updated.
>projects don't weight 600mb
>app uses only 50 MB Ram max, low end devices can use it without sweating.
>IDE is fast and efficient.
>coded in a language which most likely is safe and unambiguous.
This is me

I do realize... you just don't seem to realize some people have to support browsers that have not implemented the fetch api consistently yet, and so it is still unrealistic to depend on it in many use cases... damn... if only you were capable of elementary-level critical thinking.. oh well...

You can pretend you're creating a app when its just really just a document (webpages are interactive documents like spreadsheets), write tons of unnecessary code while pretending to write less and being smug about it, make your website overly bloated and super slow, you can make yourself more easily replaceable by other incompetent people or when it gets really bad replaced by someone competent, you can be in part responsible for ruining the environment by not just processing a simpler more efficient thing once but forcing millions to process a more bloated and resource intensive thing billions of times resulting in a exponential amount of energy consumption.

Jesus Christ, the autism is off the charts

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nothing he said is wrong

based

gay, fag, homosexual

OP you lived up to your name.

>PHP
Not using Rust+GraphQL, websockets only

Unironically this.

Found the Java developer. Go learn golang Pajeet to rewrite your smartphone app to fuschiaOS.

Would bleach the fuck out of this female ni￸￸gg￸￸￸er

>stackoverflow
What is gitter.

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Just use hyper html or lit.
Everything else is bloated and requires a shitty build system and non-standard language extensions or template syntax.

any non-thread-blocking template engines on nodejs except react?

sooo no answers so far haha

That shit was never about you. It has always been about corporate web interests, SEO and serving botnet ads and annoying subscription modals.

You don't need webpack or most of the shit you mentioned if you just want to make a website and don't care. That being said, shadow Dom and shit is now, so most of the shit people are doing in these frameworks are baked in now.

have fun having to learn all the web shit in -5 years because you will surely be jobless

if you are a mobile dev you could pass

what's a good technology to learn to ensure you're not jobless in 5 years?

mobile dev? enterprise bullshit?

Angular 1.x is slow as fuck.

It's also ez as fuck and modular. Fuck es6 syntax to be honest.