We need to address the undervaluing of HTML and CSS for what it is: gender bias...

>We need to address the undervaluing of HTML and CSS for what it is: gender bias. Even though we wouldn’t have computer science without pioneering women, interloping men have claimed it for themselves. Anything less than ‘real programming’ is now considered trivial, silly, artsy, female. That attitude needs to eat a poisoned ass.
heydonworks.com/article/reluctant-gatekeeping-the-problem-with-full-stack

Is he right? Are HTML and CSS programming looked down upon in CS/SE circles? Are programmers using Full Stack to discriminate against women who specialise in HTML and CSS?

Most of us here began with HTML and CSS, it's a great stepping stone for moving on. Why discourage people, particularly women, by making them feel like they are worth less for using a different language?

This is a hot topic, so let's try to keep it civil.

Attached: htmlcssr4girlz.png (867x596, 56K)

Other urls found in this thread:

stackoverflow.com/questions/2497146/is-css-turing-complete
haskell.org/wikiupload/8/85/TMR-Issue13.pdf
twitter.com/NSFWRedditImage

>This is a hot topic, so let's try to keep it civil.
dont care
just do your job
and everything will be daijoubu

They aren't worth less because they're using a different language, they're worth less because they're women.

>Are HTML and CSS programming looked down upon in CS/SE circles?
They've been looked down on way before interloping women claimed it for themselves.

>posting sockpuppet articles to provoke gender war identity politics Jow Forums shit on Jow Forums

who fucking cares, writing code is a boring desk job to pay the bills

Article is right, not only are companies now trying to cut costs using outsourcing, they are now eliminating all specialisation, which is why you have shit like javascript doing everything etc.

>Are HTML and CSS programming looked down upon in CS/SE circles?
Yes.

>Are programmers using Full Stack to discriminate against women who specialise in HTML and CSS?
No. Full stack != web design.

HTML and CSS aren't programming languages

>Are HTML and CSS programming looked down upon in CS/SE circles?
I can't talk about in CS/SE circles, but I certainly look down on it in industry. I use it daily because I do Full Stack and it's trivial, without question the easiest part of my job by far.

>Are programmers using Full Stack to discriminate against women who specialise in HTML and CSS?
No, as I said about HTML/CSS is fucking trivial, second the ability to develop your system from start to finish is more valuable than someone who can only work in one small area.

If you want to work on front-end only market yourself as UI/UX developer and not a HTML/CSS dev.

I'm not sure if this is serious, I honestly fear this shit'll turn into Jow Forums, but I'll bite anyway.
Computer Science obviously looks down upon web design in general. It seems trivial and a byproduct of science.
In my experience, however, not only do most people introduce themselves to code through web design, but also many well paying jobs require you have at least some basic knowledge of front-end design as you'll possibly be working a full web system. In any case, well specialized front-end developers aren't looked down upon by the industry, they are actually very well paid and respected. Perhaps a few elitist back-end or cryptography nerds and the like do look down upon the class, but it becomes more and more specific.
The thing is, the IT scenario is composed by way more than Computer Science specialists.
You'd do well to remember that.

Otherwise, I admit I haven't read the article, but the base point it makes has some truth to it. I'll read and return if the thread isn't banned until then.

>"Problematic how? Well, HTML, CSS, JavaScript, Python, C#, and SQL may all be code, but they’re really quite different kinds of code and are suited to different kinds of people."

This article reads like the author is brand new to the industry and thinks he can SJW his way out of taking responsibility for various forms complexity. Put in different terms, the author should take his projection of incapability and shove it up his own ass. I can develop in all of the above languages extremely proficiently. I don't understand why being competent in C# precludes me from being competent in HTML/CSS/JS or vice versa. This is just like knowing how to play 2 different instruments or having more than 1 hobby. Maybe if you are hyper autistic you can only handle one abstraction per lifetime, but you probably shouldn't be developing software professionally anyways if that is the case.

>Computer Science obviously looks down upon web design in general
what a retarded thing to say

I don't give a fuck if you're a guy or a girl, if all you can write is HTML/CSS then I'll consider you a retard either way

HTML&CSS is a minor and easy part of the job. You don't want to hire a separate person to do it, just like you don't want a craftsman who can only use a hammer.

As with all accounted entries in this board, this is only evidence based on my experience.
I see web design(and by that I'm not talking about web systems, only specifically front-end design) being a lot more valued in the market than in the academia(obviously), and many CS teachers tend to dissuade their students from becoming front-end developers and incite them to become actual scientists. It is, clearly, the purpose of Computer Science, as it seems a little overkill to study four years of Calculus and Physics to write HTML and CSS. So they have a point.

Continuing, I have read the article and I think it has a pretty solid base. It's barely SJW at all, having maybe one paragraph dedicated to talking about 'it'. I think it makes a lot of sense, since most full-stack developers aren't really that good at everything. It's more cost-effective for the company, probably, but it may be a bad call in most situations, specially if you'll eventually need to escalate your systems and will need more developers to work with you.

HTML is not a programming language, it's a markup language. It's literally not programming.

CSS is just stylesheets, it's just a list of how many pixels high and what color shit is, literally not programming

You can learn enough HTML and CSS to put together a functional website in a fucking day. It is literally the token for entry into web design and should only carry that much value. Learn some real backend if you want respect in the field.

My company only had a static website with our phone number on it. I told them I thought I could make a better one and that ours was dated so and they let me try. So I marked one up in html and did responsive CSS and then hired someone on freelancer to make it look perfect. Then I went to jotform and bought a form so people could put applications into our website (So I could show money coming in) then I went to facebook and bought ads linking to our website and then I went to adwords and back to freelancer to get someone to make some good looking ads and then used cookies to show ads to people who came to our site and didnt apply the first time. I also use mailchimp to get emails and send out promotions to a growing mail list.

What would you say I did? am I a developer? I rented the server and set up the hosting.

one of the owner's friends wants me to come to his company and do the same thing but I don't even know what i did

"I'm the guy who did all the obvious shit you should have done 5 years ago"

Well, given that they're markup languages and not actually programs of any kind, HTML and CSS are by definition different from something like, say, Python. Saying "HTML/CSS programmer" is like saying "Microsoft Office Word programmer"

mark up languages and style sheets are not programming.
that's not gatekeeping, it's factual.
it's like saying that designing a book cover is writing a novel; they're two different things that both go into making a book.

HTML/CSS was more respected when it was about browser compatibility, user friendly design, and minimizing page load times. Same with JS, actually.

Nice

He didn't say it was justified, just that that's his observation of other people's opinions. Which is true imo

Together they're Turing Complete

Web Design used to be a womans job in web development. But we have templating systems in frontend frameworks that make design part of the programmers job. Also there are html/css preprocessors that turn hml/css into programming languages. So its not a girls job anymore.

Computers are sexist because men make them too hard to use, they don't like it when we try to get ahead.

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Do you even know what that word means user? Or are you parroting things your read on Jow Forumsprogrammerhumor

HTML/CSS isn't neccessarily looked down upon; they're parts of the job. If ALL you can do is HTML/CSS, you're not a programmer/developer.

>Most of us here began with HTML and CSS
C O P E
>by making them feel like they are worth less for using a different language?
Because they are. HTML and CSS is something a 5 years old chromozome hoarder can learn, it requires no thought. Try programming in Idris or Coq.

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>Is he right?
>he
>right
jesus christ you actually managed to assume somebody's gender AND empower the patriarchy in a single sentence. fucking bigot.

The article is unreadable past a couple paragraphs.

I was going to say that anybody who accepts money to write articles is a situational SJW, but this SJW isn't faking it.

>HTML/CSS kiddies have always been the target of bantz from real programmers
>now it's sexist because muh womyns
It's all so tiresome

>am I a developer?
Sure, but that's not what I was say. Just that I find HTML trivial and that full stack is more valuable to a business than just a web dev.

>while JavaScript (client-side in this case, but the real™ programming language to a computer scientist) deals in things like data transmission and events.

...Javascript for data transmission?

>Together they're Turing Complete
wtf am i reading

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The language is very oriented around streams and transformations, even if the average web dev doesn't use much of that

the truth

stackoverflow.com/questions/2497146/is-css-turing-complete

LaTeX and PowerPoint are turing complete too. Who gives a shit about that faggot Alan Turing anyway, apart from basement virgins who still use Haskell?

HTML and CSS aren’t a hell of a lot more than word processing.

It's toddler tier. You can start with HTML/CSS and it's is perfectly fine for anyone to do so but you shouldn't stick with it as your only marketable skill or else you will have a bad time when you try to go beyond hobbiest tier webdev.

to be fair, most devs I work with writr abysmal HTML/CSS. front end development is all about style and aesthetics--two things that are severely lacking among the CS students/graduates. you simply cannot trust a man who wears sketchers and relaxed fit jeans to design something that looks good.

Pic related.

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yeah that comic includes LaTeX which is as much of a programming language as HTML. the guy who drew this is a bit of a faggot, but you are a bigger faggot for saving it to your device and for trying to make an identity for yourself on a Chinese cartoon forum

LaTeX is more powerful than HTML.

ok then go write a kernel with it user

I am pleased to hear that whole website stuff is starting to eat itself up

Are there even jobs now out there for just people that know HTML and CSS?

I work as a developer for a medium size company and we develop enterprise application for data management problems, all the applications are web based, but we have no staff that specalise in CSS / HTML as that's not enough to do anything useful, you need to know Javascript for a start as everything is Angular so wrote in TS and if for some reason the front end is missing some data or something and needs extending then you need to modify the back end which is wrote in Java with all those lovely neterprise frameworks to abstract away the proble i.e. spring. I don't think it's trying to keep women that know HTML and CSS out, but due to the nature of web frameworks now HTML and CSS is just simply not enough on its own to make you useful.

>What would you say I did?
Made the tumor metastise.
>am I a developer?
Absolutely not, you are a cancer though.

I just find the HTML one unironically funny, also I change my trip regularly, it's not an identity. The Latex one is pretty faggy.
If you consider domimatrixes to be powerful, I suppose Latex can do a lot of good in a bdsm setting.

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>It's not unless you use Internet Explorer 6
Nigga.

C’mon, HTML/CSS programming is not programming lmao...

If you work full stack, but don't a 6 figure paycheck, you're being fully stacked in the ass.

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You definitely want to hire someone to do it if you're making something with tons of frontend. But you don't pay them like a full stack dev, not even close. Let your full stack devs do the hard shit that only they can do.
This retard is basically a day laborer complaining that they don't get paid like architects do.

Behold the autism of TeX:
www.tug.org/TUGboat/Articles/tb11-3/tb29greene.pdf
haskell.org/wikiupload/8/85/TMR-Issue13.pdf
Meanwhile in HTML land:
[insert rolling tumbleweed]

We need to address the undervaluing of assembling IKEA products for what it is: gender bias. Even though we wouldn’t have furniture engineering without pioneering women, interloping men have claimed it for themselves. Anything less than ‘real carpentry’ is now considered trivial, silly, artsy, female. That attitude needs to eat a poisoned ass

>PerlTeX
I stopped reading right there, didn't even bother with the other link, what the fuck?

Neither HTML or CSS is programming. If that's all you know then you aren't a programmer. Why the fuck would you be valued the same as a programmer?

Get good bitch.

That's the power of TeX autism. There are many more cool/autistic passtimes like this. You don't know TeX until you see a guy write model checker in it.

By that logic I can put Minecraft on my resume because of redstone.

Could we write an AI waifu for Jow Forumsentoomen.

B-but there are plenty of (male) waifus on Jow Forums already!

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just shut up and be good at whatever you do, a good CSS/HTML person is worth having in a team not everyone is good for everything.

> >We need togender bias
Didn't read ktnxbye

HTML/CSS isn't really programming.