>We need to address the undervaluing of HTML and CSS for what it is: gender bias. Even though we wouldn’t have computer science without pioneering women, interloping men have claimed it for themselves. Anything less than ‘real programming’ is now considered trivial, silly, artsy, female. That attitude needs to eat a poisoned ass. heydonworks.com/article/reluctant-gatekeeping-the-problem-with-full-stack
Is he right? Are HTML and CSS programming looked down upon in CS/SE circles? Are programmers using Full Stack to discriminate against women who specialise in HTML and CSS?
Most of us here began with HTML and CSS, it's a great stepping stone for moving on. Why discourage people, particularly women, by making them feel like they are worth less for using a different language?
This is a hot topic, so let's try to keep it civil.
>This is a hot topic, so let's try to keep it civil. dont care just do your job and everything will be daijoubu
Mason Edwards
They aren't worth less because they're using a different language, they're worth less because they're women.
Justin Cook
>Are HTML and CSS programming looked down upon in CS/SE circles? They've been looked down on way before interloping women claimed it for themselves.
Ethan Morales
>posting sockpuppet articles to provoke gender war identity politics Jow Forums shit on Jow Forums
who fucking cares, writing code is a boring desk job to pay the bills
Carson Jones
Article is right, not only are companies now trying to cut costs using outsourcing, they are now eliminating all specialisation, which is why you have shit like javascript doing everything etc.
Joseph Young
>Are HTML and CSS programming looked down upon in CS/SE circles? Yes.
>Are programmers using Full Stack to discriminate against women who specialise in HTML and CSS? No. Full stack != web design.
Adrian Lopez
HTML and CSS aren't programming languages
Dominic Clark
>Are HTML and CSS programming looked down upon in CS/SE circles? I can't talk about in CS/SE circles, but I certainly look down on it in industry. I use it daily because I do Full Stack and it's trivial, without question the easiest part of my job by far.
>Are programmers using Full Stack to discriminate against women who specialise in HTML and CSS? No, as I said about HTML/CSS is fucking trivial, second the ability to develop your system from start to finish is more valuable than someone who can only work in one small area.
If you want to work on front-end only market yourself as UI/UX developer and not a HTML/CSS dev.
Xavier Hughes
I'm not sure if this is serious, I honestly fear this shit'll turn into Jow Forums, but I'll bite anyway. Computer Science obviously looks down upon web design in general. It seems trivial and a byproduct of science. In my experience, however, not only do most people introduce themselves to code through web design, but also many well paying jobs require you have at least some basic knowledge of front-end design as you'll possibly be working a full web system. In any case, well specialized front-end developers aren't looked down upon by the industry, they are actually very well paid and respected. Perhaps a few elitist back-end or cryptography nerds and the like do look down upon the class, but it becomes more and more specific. The thing is, the IT scenario is composed by way more than Computer Science specialists. You'd do well to remember that.
Otherwise, I admit I haven't read the article, but the base point it makes has some truth to it. I'll read and return if the thread isn't banned until then.
Kayden Brooks
>"Problematic how? Well, HTML, CSS, JavaScript, Python, C#, and SQL may all be code, but they’re really quite different kinds of code and are suited to different kinds of people."
This article reads like the author is brand new to the industry and thinks he can SJW his way out of taking responsibility for various forms complexity. Put in different terms, the author should take his projection of incapability and shove it up his own ass. I can develop in all of the above languages extremely proficiently. I don't understand why being competent in C# precludes me from being competent in HTML/CSS/JS or vice versa. This is just like knowing how to play 2 different instruments or having more than 1 hobby. Maybe if you are hyper autistic you can only handle one abstraction per lifetime, but you probably shouldn't be developing software professionally anyways if that is the case.
Carson Scott
>Computer Science obviously looks down upon web design in general what a retarded thing to say
Nicholas Bell
I don't give a fuck if you're a guy or a girl, if all you can write is HTML/CSS then I'll consider you a retard either way
Mason Taylor
HTML&CSS is a minor and easy part of the job. You don't want to hire a separate person to do it, just like you don't want a craftsman who can only use a hammer.
Easton Long
As with all accounted entries in this board, this is only evidence based on my experience. I see web design(and by that I'm not talking about web systems, only specifically front-end design) being a lot more valued in the market than in the academia(obviously), and many CS teachers tend to dissuade their students from becoming front-end developers and incite them to become actual scientists. It is, clearly, the purpose of Computer Science, as it seems a little overkill to study four years of Calculus and Physics to write HTML and CSS. So they have a point.
Continuing, I have read the article and I think it has a pretty solid base. It's barely SJW at all, having maybe one paragraph dedicated to talking about 'it'. I think it makes a lot of sense, since most full-stack developers aren't really that good at everything. It's more cost-effective for the company, probably, but it may be a bad call in most situations, specially if you'll eventually need to escalate your systems and will need more developers to work with you.
Thomas Wood
HTML is not a programming language, it's a markup language. It's literally not programming.
CSS is just stylesheets, it's just a list of how many pixels high and what color shit is, literally not programming
Nolan Wood
You can learn enough HTML and CSS to put together a functional website in a fucking day. It is literally the token for entry into web design and should only carry that much value. Learn some real backend if you want respect in the field.
Dominic Rivera
My company only had a static website with our phone number on it. I told them I thought I could make a better one and that ours was dated so and they let me try. So I marked one up in html and did responsive CSS and then hired someone on freelancer to make it look perfect. Then I went to jotform and bought a form so people could put applications into our website (So I could show money coming in) then I went to facebook and bought ads linking to our website and then I went to adwords and back to freelancer to get someone to make some good looking ads and then used cookies to show ads to people who came to our site and didnt apply the first time. I also use mailchimp to get emails and send out promotions to a growing mail list.
What would you say I did? am I a developer? I rented the server and set up the hosting.
one of the owner's friends wants me to come to his company and do the same thing but I don't even know what i did
"I'm the guy who did all the obvious shit you should have done 5 years ago"
Ian Perez
Well, given that they're markup languages and not actually programs of any kind, HTML and CSS are by definition different from something like, say, Python. Saying "HTML/CSS programmer" is like saying "Microsoft Office Word programmer"
Zachary Rodriguez
mark up languages and style sheets are not programming. that's not gatekeeping, it's factual. it's like saying that designing a book cover is writing a novel; they're two different things that both go into making a book.
Mason Ross
HTML/CSS was more respected when it was about browser compatibility, user friendly design, and minimizing page load times. Same with JS, actually.
Owen Watson
Nice
Zachary Gomez
He didn't say it was justified, just that that's his observation of other people's opinions. Which is true imo
Lincoln Moore
Together they're Turing Complete
Nathan Diaz
Web Design used to be a womans job in web development. But we have templating systems in frontend frameworks that make design part of the programmers job. Also there are html/css preprocessors that turn hml/css into programming languages. So its not a girls job anymore.
Henry Cook
Computers are sexist because men make them too hard to use, they don't like it when we try to get ahead.
Do you even know what that word means user? Or are you parroting things your read on Jow Forumsprogrammerhumor
HTML/CSS isn't neccessarily looked down upon; they're parts of the job. If ALL you can do is HTML/CSS, you're not a programmer/developer.
Angel Hughes
>Most of us here began with HTML and CSS C O P E >by making them feel like they are worth less for using a different language? Because they are. HTML and CSS is something a 5 years old chromozome hoarder can learn, it requires no thought. Try programming in Idris or Coq.
>Is he right? >he >right jesus christ you actually managed to assume somebody's gender AND empower the patriarchy in a single sentence. fucking bigot.
Cameron Murphy
The article is unreadable past a couple paragraphs.
I was going to say that anybody who accepts money to write articles is a situational SJW, but this SJW isn't faking it.
Hudson Scott
>HTML/CSS kiddies have always been the target of bantz from real programmers >now it's sexist because muh womyns It's all so tiresome
Gavin Murphy
>am I a developer? Sure, but that's not what I was say. Just that I find HTML trivial and that full stack is more valuable to a business than just a web dev.
Christopher Cox
>while JavaScript (client-side in this case, but the real™ programming language to a computer scientist) deals in things like data transmission and events.
...Javascript for data transmission?
Camden Robinson
>Together they're Turing Complete wtf am i reading
LaTeX and PowerPoint are turing complete too. Who gives a shit about that faggot Alan Turing anyway, apart from basement virgins who still use Haskell?
Luis Wright
HTML and CSS aren’t a hell of a lot more than word processing.
Aiden Sanchez
It's toddler tier. You can start with HTML/CSS and it's is perfectly fine for anyone to do so but you shouldn't stick with it as your only marketable skill or else you will have a bad time when you try to go beyond hobbiest tier webdev.
Michael Jones
to be fair, most devs I work with writr abysmal HTML/CSS. front end development is all about style and aesthetics--two things that are severely lacking among the CS students/graduates. you simply cannot trust a man who wears sketchers and relaxed fit jeans to design something that looks good.
yeah that comic includes LaTeX which is as much of a programming language as HTML. the guy who drew this is a bit of a faggot, but you are a bigger faggot for saving it to your device and for trying to make an identity for yourself on a Chinese cartoon forum
Joseph Baker
LaTeX is more powerful than HTML.
Luke Fisher
ok then go write a kernel with it user
David Rogers
I am pleased to hear that whole website stuff is starting to eat itself up
Cooper Baker
Are there even jobs now out there for just people that know HTML and CSS?
I work as a developer for a medium size company and we develop enterprise application for data management problems, all the applications are web based, but we have no staff that specalise in CSS / HTML as that's not enough to do anything useful, you need to know Javascript for a start as everything is Angular so wrote in TS and if for some reason the front end is missing some data or something and needs extending then you need to modify the back end which is wrote in Java with all those lovely neterprise frameworks to abstract away the proble i.e. spring. I don't think it's trying to keep women that know HTML and CSS out, but due to the nature of web frameworks now HTML and CSS is just simply not enough on its own to make you useful.
Hudson Turner
>What would you say I did? Made the tumor metastise. >am I a developer? Absolutely not, you are a cancer though.
Xavier Walker
I just find the HTML one unironically funny, also I change my trip regularly, it's not an identity. The Latex one is pretty faggy. If you consider domimatrixes to be powerful, I suppose Latex can do a lot of good in a bdsm setting.
You definitely want to hire someone to do it if you're making something with tons of frontend. But you don't pay them like a full stack dev, not even close. Let your full stack devs do the hard shit that only they can do. This retard is basically a day laborer complaining that they don't get paid like architects do.
Kayden Martin
Behold the autism of TeX: www.tug.org/TUGboat/Articles/tb11-3/tb29greene.pdf haskell.org/wikiupload/8/85/TMR-Issue13.pdf Meanwhile in HTML land: [insert rolling tumbleweed]
Carter Evans
We need to address the undervaluing of assembling IKEA products for what it is: gender bias. Even though we wouldn’t have furniture engineering without pioneering women, interloping men have claimed it for themselves. Anything less than ‘real carpentry’ is now considered trivial, silly, artsy, female. That attitude needs to eat a poisoned ass
Jason Brooks
>PerlTeX I stopped reading right there, didn't even bother with the other link, what the fuck?
Jace Morales
Neither HTML or CSS is programming. If that's all you know then you aren't a programmer. Why the fuck would you be valued the same as a programmer?
Get good bitch.
Julian Nguyen
That's the power of TeX autism. There are many more cool/autistic passtimes like this. You don't know TeX until you see a guy write model checker in it.
Connor Diaz
By that logic I can put Minecraft on my resume because of redstone.
Dominic Martin
Could we write an AI waifu for Jow Forumsentoomen.
Ian Nguyen
B-but there are plenty of (male) waifus on Jow Forums already!