Are we able to ever recover from the damage of systemd? It's already anchored in every mainstream distro! Someone has to stop him! I bet you he will start his own operating system built upon systemd and it will take over the world and be much worse as everything we know right now! Its the end of linux!
Are we able to ever recover from the damage of systemd...
Thomas Bell
Other urls found in this thread:
serverfault.com
phoronix.com
suckless.org
web.archive.org
without-systemd.org
youtube.com
twitter.com
Brayden Russell
>inb4 what's wrong with it?
There's a LOT of reasons why people don't like it, and I think the people who don't like it all likely have their own reasons for not liking it.
Here's a posting about someone discovering a massive memory leak that used up 4GB of ram. While I have yet to see something this massive, I have definitely noticed Systemd using more memory than the alternatives, and some leakage here and there as well.
serverfault.com
Some see it as an unnecessary security risk due to its massive attack surface. It recently hit 1 million lines of code.
phoronix.com
Some don't like it because they dislike its habit of scope creep. The project ends up assimilating things that historically should not have anything to do with init. gif related.
suckless.org
There's also some other design decisions that people have an issue with, such as using Google DNS by default (because of course systemd can handle DNS), using binary logs, etc.
Lastly there's the conspiracy theory side of it, which alleges that systemd is an NSA attempt to compromise GNU/Linux, and due to Systemd as a project moving way too fast, it can't be properly audited.
web.archive.org
For more links and arguments, see:
without-systemd.org
Aiden Smith
for more on the DNS issue, see pic related
Dylan Russell
pic related the motherboard bricking
Blake Ramirez
A common argument in Systemd's defense is that it shortened script length considerably. However, that's only true when comparing Systemd to Sysvinit. Other solutions make this point moot.
This is a common tactic of poettering shills. They'll find the worst possible thing to compare their trash to that makes it look most favorable, while COMPLETELY ignoring all other alternatives.
This same thing happened with PulseAudio, with poettering comparing it to OSS, even though that was already depreciated and replaced with ALSA
Nathan Diaz
and of course, systemd's code quality is just plain awful. See pic related and System Down, which didn't get patched until A MONTH after discovery.
William Ortiz
Don't worry, it'll be rewritten in Rust!
Mason Barnes
b-but don't worry! Pooterring will rewrite it in Rust, so we're safe! /s
Austin Rogers
The funny thing is, systemd's design would anger probably at least 95% of GNU/Linux users (probably including you too) IF it was anything but the init system.
I know some of you think the "Unix Way" is just a meme, but it's actually the reason you can do shit like pipe terminal commands into each other. It's THE reason you have components you can wrap your brain around which can all be pieced together and managed in a simple and flexible way. That's what the Unix Way does.
You want another great example of the Unix Way? Ironically systemd is a GREAT example of the Unix Way. Not in its design though, but in its mere existence.
Have you ever realized how absolutely amazing it is that a new piece of software as fundamental as PID 1 could be swapped out in all of our major distros (even "stable" ones) in only a few years time?
The significance of that cannot be overstated. And yet, although systemd owes its success to the Unix Way which made it so easy for them to step in, it undermines the Unix Way in its own design.
Do you think 20yrs from now when systemd is old and busted that it will be so easy to swap it out with something better? Well not only is the scope of this thing which needs to be replaced now _massive_ compared to what it used to be, but you'd also probably have to rewrite a lot of other software, or beg the developers to change their dependencies.
It doesn't matter if systemd works. You didn't start using GNU/Linux because it "works" did you? You started using it because it allowed you to be the master of how your data flows, and it allowed you to combine things in ways nobody else on GNU/Linux was doing to get exactly what you want.
Quit being led astray by the "just works" argument when it comes to systemd just because init systems aren't something you care to play around with and customize all that much. That shouldn't matter, and we should stick to the tried and true design principles that have served us so well all these years.
Parker Adams
Very real disadvantages of systemd:
1. systemd is tied to a specific kernel and a specific libc and specific device manager and specific journaling daemon, basically, having systemd means you're locked in to a whole lot of other things.
2. systemd is renowned for locking up during startup and boot when you have network filesystems.
3. systemd hardcodes quite a lot of the booting and shutdown process in C which other systems place in easily editable scripts.
4. systemd in practice requires quite a lot of things: ACLs, PAM, dbus, polkit, these are not hard requirements but without this the above advantages are lost so all distributions enable them at compile time.
5. logind starting to do retarded shit like user sessions and having retarded power management, in theory you can disable logind, but no distribution again does this.
6. systemd is very monolithic and comes in one configuration compared to being able to piece your system together yourself.
7. systemd appropriates the cgroup tree and takes control of it and completely messes with any other user of the cgroup tree and really wants them all to go through systemd, systemd was wirtten basically on the assumption that nothing but systemd would be using cgroups and they even tried to lobby to make cgroups a private prioperty of systemd in the kernel but that went no-where.
8. systemd's usage of cgroups for process tracking is a fundamentally broken concept, cgroups were never meant for this and it's a good way to fuck resource usage up.
9. systemd has a hard dependency on glibc for really no good reason.
Hudson Lee
>Are we able to ever recover from the damage of systemd?
Not by shitposting on Jow Forums. It's basically guaranteed the message reaches nobody important.
Anthony Hughes
10. systemd relies on DBus for IPC, as the name 'Desktop bus' implies DBus was never written with this in mind and it shows. DBus was written to facilitate IPC within a single desktop session, not as a transport during early boot. This is why systemd wanted to push kdbus heavily beause kdbus solved some of the problems inherent to DBus being used as IPC during early boot.
11. systemd's security and general code quality practices are less than stellar, a lot of security bugs pop up in systemd due to its insistence of putting quite a bit of code in pid1 and quickly adding new features and quickly changing things.
12. systemd creates dependencies and is a dependency of things for political reasons in order to encourage people to pick these things. This is not conjecture, Lennart has admitted multiple times that he creates dependencies to 'gently push' everyone to the same configuration
13. systemd is monolithic for its own sake. It's basically product tying to encourage people to pick an all-or-none deal to again gently push towards this consistency.
14. Lennart Poettering, the face of systemd and its lead dev is the biggest primadonna FOSS has ever known who continues to shift blame and demand that entire world adapt to his designs.
Elijah Jones
>implying CIAniggers and important people in tech don't lurk on Jow Forums on a daily basis.
Michael Jenkins
GTFO faggot. Stop hating on people developing free software. If you don't like it, don't use it. You distro uses it? Blane the distro maintainers.
Aiden Allen
Stockholm Syndrome detected.
Eli Hill
They definitely are.
I'm literally the most important person on Earth right now and I am here, so it makes sense if less important people and spies are here.
Charles Wood
No, I blame redhat for this shit! Fucking NSA niggers! PulseAudio alone is bad enough, not init too!!
Ryan Barnes
please user.
don't do these threads.
they always ruin my day.
my hopes for future.
i can handle only so much truth at once.
thanks to you, i'm at the point of hating my os.
my interaction with it goes down.
my productivity decreases.
until i get to the point that it has to stop, otherwise i'll die diving in hate rather than joy.
this is torture.
i wish i would be dead.
Connor Walker
Hope about just stopping using the systemd, you dumb frogposter?
Nathaniel King
Ol Musky
Caleb Stewart
Based, that's how free market works. Promote the better alternatives to shape the market intothe thing you want, hating on something by itself doesn't provide you with anything good.
Elijah Hall
you don't understand.
if you are not aligned with distro maintainers anymore, your only way of going forwards is to detach.
the older you are, the more time the detachment process takes.
you must evaluate potentials.
the more important role the distro plays in your life, the more important will be your voice in defending your choice in upcoming years.
it's not about you anymore, but you will propagate your beliefs down the company chain.
therefore it's important to quantify all the hate and rage, before you act on it.
but once you do, it all goes down with you.
Asher Brooks
C and the Unix way *are* shit, but so is systemd.
Kayden Bennett
Install Gentoo.
Carson Flores
My biggest problem with systemd is that I'm running a relatively small, simple desktop on a laptop and I don't need the features systemd offers, yet here I am running it because I'm left with little choice.
So before we even get into the security issues, the bugs, the feature creep, lets start with the fact that it was forced on people and they're stuck with it.
That's not the way things should work.
Michael Perez
Is the responsible for the single major schism in the Linux history.
The bigotry of their fanbase doesn't help
Matthew Taylor
>systemd is about choice
ironic since everyone and their mother depends on it
Justin Lopez
>try to execute "shutdown -h now" with the x server open
>it makes you wait 90 seconds to close all the running programs
>doesnt actually close anything and ends up force killing it at the end of the 90 seconds
yep systemd is so good bro
John Clark
Systemd is fine. Don't like it? Use openrc or runit or whatever on you Gentoo, the earlier is anyhow the default choice.
You can probably even use the crappy thing that was upstart if you try. It was going to be what most distros might have used, thankfully that didn't happen and we are in the ez systemd timeline.
Logan Gonzalez
The Tragedy of systemd.
youtube.com
Hudson Reed
It doesn't do that though. If your services' shutdown scripts are fucked, you can always fix them or reduce the timeout, it is only that long so DBs and stuff could write to disk if you were running any.
Probably another Ubuntu derivative fuckup?
Grayson Perry
>someone has to stop it!
>pottering man bad!
>end of linux!
I can see your face writting this s o y boy
>too big lets just use this obscure shit nobody uses or audits
>code is bad haha what bad taste
>btw link to suckless
>links to people complaining instead of providing evidence
>some people say it is NSA botnet!! trust me dude
>waaah if I use google dns google can hear me with the soundwaves from my screen!!
>I-I have no evidence even though the project is open source because it's too big and only 90% of the market share distros use it so nobody audites it
>firefox is bigger but is okay bro xD literally more people use firefox that chrome so it is well known and not a botnet
retard, over 90% of servers use systemd and their uptimes are just right,
only arguments that are valid are some of the bugs it has. without systemd distros have to be hacked together with tools that are just way too splited making it more prone to errors, so is not like it doesn't have any purpose other than to be bloat. You would know the last sentence is true if you weren't a neet who rices its gentoo dwm all day
Bentley Harris
Yea, they chose to use it? People maintaining distros also frequently chose gcc, bash and ncurses or gtk. Never mind xorg.
You can use systemd-boot followed by runit or openrc if you want, or use grub2 or something else instead. You can let systemd configure the network, or connman. And so on. More flexibility by far than if your distro maintainers chose gtk for some software.
Kayden Diaz
Who uses shutdown? Use poweroff or init 0. I don't like systemd either, but come on, man.
Elijah Jones
>Probably another Ubuntu derivative fuckup?
no it was on arch
Kevin Bell
Surprising, but systemd's tools let you understand what service doesn't terminate its shutdown routines until killed, so you could just fix that. Or just reconfigure systemd to resort to murdering everything that takes longer than 15s, not that that is generally clever.
Henry Russell
ive already just switched to gentoo
Logan Bennett
Real men use kill -9 -1
Easton Turner
Are there any usable distros that don't use system d?
Liam Lopez
Now that's just savage
Dominic Hall
Lincoln Reed
dude, linux is barely usable with systemd and red hat giving money to developers to work full time. What do you expect from amateur distros maintained by one or three people?
I'd love if slackware had a ton of developers, it is a simple distro that works without binary administration shit like systemd and package managers.
I don't even use it because I barely even use my time to do work
Jace Cruz
I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you’re referring to as systemd, is in fact, NSA/systemd, or as I’ve recently taken to calling it, NSA plus systemd. systemd is not an init system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning NSA system made useful by the NSA backdoors and broad buggy system that touches as many components as possible and runs at PID 1. Many computer users run a modified version of the NSA system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of the NSA backdoor which is widely used today is often called “systemd”, and many of its users are not aware that it is basically an NSA rootkit, developed by the NSA and forced onto the Linux community with their public shell company Red Hat. There really is a systemd, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the backdoor they use. systemd is the kernel or host: the software the NSA backdoor resides in that collects all your private data. The host software is an essential part of an NSA backdoor, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete rootkit. systemd is normally used in combination with the NSA operating system: the whole system is basically NSA with systemd added, or NSA/systemd. All the so-called “systemd” distributions are really distributions of NSA/systemd.
James Lewis
Are anti-systemd people the anti-vaxxers of free software?
Nathan Carter
I'm starting to think that these threads are just advertisements in disguise.
Take your suckless shit elsewhere it sucks.
Most of the shit is just copy pastes that have been refuted time and time again.
If your on the fence about systemd and don't know if it's good, then read into how it actually works. Don't fall for this.
Jordan Collins
>damage
linux is a kernel btw.
Colton Williams
kek, that's jow I imagine this retards
Gavin Mitchell
I want him to wear a suckless t shirt
Mason Cox
kill -9 {99999..0}
Evan Powell
Install gentoo. Unironically.
Owen Long
kek
Jacob Jenkins
If systemd is so bad, why did almost every distro adopt it?
Easton Young
Servers run Windows 2003, that doesn't make it a good modern kernel or overall OS. Just because systemd isnt crashing your fucking system every 3 seconds doesn't mean it isn't riddled with horrible design flaws, maintained by actual asshole developers that dismiss every bug or forceful "YOU BUILD FOR *US*!!!!!" '''feature''' as "won't fix", and is ouroboro-tier self dependent and all consuming.
You want to use your own network manager? Great, just turn off networkd. Except SystemD will automagically turn networkd back the fuck on, and then it will overwrite and take over your networking needs, ignoring whatever you set up, completely at random, and fuck everything up. Also let's not forget the absolutely insane idea of Binary Fucking Logging, so you have to use the SystemD(tm) way to read SystemD(tm) logs that are stored in the SystemD(tm) binary format, no longer can you just cat a log file, no no no, the whole god damned journaling and init system has to be crunching away and you have to hope there wasnt a crash involved when writing that log since its a binary file and not a regular fucking text file, which defeats the point of a LOG FILE DURING A CRASH
Systemd is shit and you're a fucking retard
Henry Baker
Well, according to my doctor, I'm not at increased risk of death from not using systemd, so I'd say no.
Chase Reed
If aids is a problem, why are so many people still having sex?
Robert Brooks
I frequently jow like that, too.
Wyatt James
Most distros are interested in a "what's easiest for us?" approach. Arch maintainers directly admit to this as their reason for adopting systemd, they can just ship their distro with it and now it's the packages fault for misbehaving and they don't need to deal with it at all. It's the same reason they all use GNOME by default: It's a big suite of bullshit that comes in a great monolithic blob, so you shit with that and systemd and most systems "just work"
Which is fine on the surface. It's (for both GNOME and systemd) the maintainers god damned narcisstic approach to design that's the problem. If systemd were truly modular like it claimed, it wouldn't be such a problem. If it would actually maintain an open and compatible API instead of making pull requests on extremely well established software like TMUX to fucking change themselves to accomodate systemd, or even making pull requests on the kernel its god damned self to work better for systemd, it wouldn't be a god damn problem. Let me repeat that: The developers of systemd have requested *KERNEL LEVEL CHANGES* so that it better fit THEIR design for an init system and watchdog. If that doesn't strike you as absolutely fucking insane then you're either braindead or not thinking. GNOME is almost identical to this thinking in that they expect software developers to program specifically around what GNOME wants rather than providing a generic, reusable API, so now everything depends directly on GTK bullshit.
Cameron King
Are the systemd shills the democratic socialists of communism?
Benjamin Kelly
I'm going to try Slackware in a VM and see how usuable it turns out to be.