Could a MMO be made with p2p technology?

BR?

because all players have to maintain a synchronized game state dumbasses, and you need input from every player to sychronize that state so without an authorative server you're stuck waiting on everyone so it will go as slow as the slowest player
see: any RTS game

Mu Online was played by virtually the entire world, mate. It's like asking if someone is brazilian for drinking water.

It still does some sanity checks, back in release days there were cheats that allowed people to just instantly blow up anything they want, but it was fixed. And all the player/system data and bgs were always server-side, of course.

this picture brings so many great memories

>obviously haven't played MU
In MU you couldn't walk 5 meters without getting asked BR? and sometimes followed around while getting shouted BR? BR? at

It was pretty magical

ill never understand what the fuck the deal is with latin americans
why cant they just behave like normal people? wat the fuck is it about their culture that makes them do this

There are ways to design it so a slow connection only slows down that player and if they are slow enough it could cause desynchronization they just get dropped.

Hacking would only be as bad as a game like WoW where it occasionally happens through clever abuse of bugs. If every player is synchronized together that actually closes a common way of hacking which is where the game host can manipulate game state. If any player goes against consensus about how the game works they'd be dropped for possibly split off from the main peer group. Look at it this way: how often does a BitTorrent change files? It can't happen with standard bt protocol because changed files means peering breaks, you can't really "hack" bittorrent. The new issue that arrives however is patching the game, you might need a central system that at least acts as a checkpoint to keep every player on the latest patch, otherwise patching would be done through consensus and players would be able to make their own patches if they got 51% of players to switch to it.

youtube.com/watch?v=1ADX1opI7Vg

You only need to sync with players in your area/map/zone/city for 99% of things. When you enter another zone you can switch to peers in that zone. The only thing I can think of that would need to sync with everyone is an auction house.
You don't need to sync missed public messages with players who enter the zone later because messages are irrelevant. You don't need to sync private messages because they're meant to be p2p 1-1.
The biggest issue would be updating the game. You need a central authority for this.

Also, most MMOs have a player limit per server. 100-2000 players is doable with a 1Mbps speed.

No, that's not how P2P works, you need to sync with everyone yes, but if one person isn't syncing up properly they will be the one lagging not you. You'll lag for them, they'll lag for you, if their connection to everyone is trash they will lag for everyone and everyone will lag for them.

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You wouldn't need to synchronize the *entire* game state, you could make it so that you only keep a rough version of most the world, maybe a hash or something. Then it syncs nearby objects that are required for gameplay. This design however, would re-open the potential for cheating if for example a boss takes a dozen players and all those players use a cheat to agree with each other and tell the rest of the world "look we killed the boss!" But there are ways to fix this. It's a trade off between network speed and security. There could possibly even be an algorithm which scales the peer size small enough to stay fast but big enough to be secure.

That brings another interesting aspect of a p2p mmo. Unless the game world is tiny, a small peer size would be faster. Imagine trying to constantly sync all of World of Warcraft. It could never be played in realtime. Instead, you would want to sync the map and spells, items and everything before logging in, then during play only the nearby state is needed. You'd need a system to shutdown everything for patching though, like any other game you don't want people on one patch playing with a different patch because it'd break everything

>but if one person isn't syncing up properly they will be the one lagging not you
And who's to decide which game state is correct? P2P has no authoritative host to decide, so either everyone is in sync or nobody is

p2p doesn't work with more than a dozen players who are decided upon at startup. A game where suddenly some Chinese person walks into zone with 400 ping and slows everyone down is not a game

>And who's to decide which game state is correct?
BLOCKCHAIN!!!11

technically feasible, but it's problematic when any client can become a trusted trusted source of authority on game state information. you never want client-side cheats to be feasible. so to fix that you need to add a bunch of server-side checks -- at which point why aren't you just using a client-server architecture instead?

>technically feasible
no it's not

System of trust - you verify client info with another client's info. They would both have to be cheating at exactly the same time to pull it off as a non-cheat

Wrong. Security can easily be baked into the client itself(many modern mmos do that already, on top of server side security) and any commands could be baked in through client side encryption that can be decoded with proper key on the other side.

>Security can easily be baked into the client itself
people can hack the clients retard, if it's on the clients computer it's insecure, period

That's why you use a strong encryption on the client itself.

There are no secure systems. Even live mmorpg get hacked all the time. The argument isn't is it 100% secure, but rather can there be security? The answer is yes, its a very obvious answer.

>That's why you use a strong encryption on the client itself.
What? You inspect the memory of the program running and you change the variables. It's very simple to find your health value for example and change that and no "encryption" will prevent it. Proper client-server MMOs are secure systems. No MMO games do anything important on the client

All of the largests MMO use client side security through encryption + server side calls. Whether that's WoW, GW2, Tera, etc. Furthermore, the largest modern MMOs also pattern recognition to identify a set of patterns that players exploit and recognize the exploits that way. Many are done client side first. In fact, with the advent of 64-bit systems that uses random memory table allocations, this becomes even harder. These are all client side security.

You're retarded if you think client-server MMO are secure. As i've said before, hackings occur everyday on the most secure client-server MMOs.

Can't speak about games I haven't played but all significant calculations for WoW take place server-side, only thing handled by the client is movement, because movement feels better that way and movement is mostly insignificant to how the game works. You can't hack a properly made client-server game short of physically breaking into the data center and comprimising the servers yourself. And no client side protection is never unbreakable. Peer to peer games have NO security

I miss MU. I played it in early 2000's. It was in beta I believe.

it was and still is ridden with viruses but it was the only mmorpg i liked enough to play.

Shit, all your points are wrong, I don't know where to begin.

>wow
Wow client side security is not just basic stuff like movement, the literal process called the Warden is built in the client to do security check on memory writes, function calls, process checks, dll load checks, file modifications, hash checks, and so on.

>you can't hack a properly made client-server game
A properly made client server game that utilizes only the server side security means you can literally hack the client side and the server will never realize it.

>And no client side protection is never unbreakable
No security is unbreakable, apply this logic to your own argument. Jesus Christ.

Also, on top of this, p2p MMO can simply utilize the client as both the player/server model for security. Ofcourse if a game is never updated, old securities will be defeated easily. A properly updated p2p mmo will be secure enough in most cases scenarios as new vulnerabilities are patched up and rolled out.

Store the game state in a DHT whose nodes are all connected peers. There, I solved your dumb problems.

>No security is unbreakable
The host in a client-server game is essentially unhackable. It requires you to physically breach the location, as I've said. You don't know how games actually work, you're just repeating the names of the technologies used inside them. WoW has a client security system, but the WoW client only handles non-essential processes like player movement. It doesn't handle any of the actual game mechanics so if you breach the client that's all you can mess with. If a game uses the server for absolutely everything, then if you hack the client you can't do anything.

>p2p MMO can simply utilize the client as both the player/server model for security.
That doesn't even mean anything

You've just moved the security problem from the client to the server. Do you realize that servers are getting hacked all the time?

Why are you still arguing this point. Brainlet much?

It was good for a few years before they started dumbing down everything.

>walk around in early MU
>hordes of noobs around me with stock equipment from stores or something +4 at best
>once a week see this knight
>his dragon armor is fucking shining with translucent gold and he has fucking demonic wings

Those were the glory days of MU

>Do you realize that servers are getting hacked all the time?
They aren't
I've played thousands of hours of the most popular online games and I have never encountered a cheater using hacks granted to them by a server being comprimised

Yeah. If you're retarded i guess.

>Do you realize that servers are getting hacked all the time
I don't remember a single case of the game server getting hacked. Some db leaks and other shit, sure, but not the game server itself.

this, but unironically

Because the scale matters. When a client side is hacked, it affects only the individuals. When a server is hacked, everyone is affected.

Which is worse? Random people shooting around or a state actor killing millions at a time?

This is literally how Destiny 2 is. It's an MMO with p2p connections.

>When a server is hacked, everyone is affected.
yes but it doesn't fucking happen you moron. When was a WoW server, a DOTA server, a LOL server, a CS server ever hacked to give a player an advantage? It hasn't fucking happened and you're making shit up to try and prove yourself right even though you don't know what you're talking about.

If a game was client-validated, if the client was hacked, it would be distributed, and everyone would use the hack and it would affect everyone. See every FPS game

This, I've never even seen wow private servers getting hacked by an external source and those are run by literal amateurs, at worst some rogue GM fucking things up.

Both private/retail are hacked all the time. Account hacking is so common. On top of that, the most popular wow private servers itself has been hacked many times. The entire sql database has been hacked and dumped.

DOTA2 servers have been hacked too. The main forum, its users/pass(salted)/email have been hacked.

League of legends has been hacked and a good chunk of account information were floating around the net.

These are actual hacks too. On top of that, DDoS is very common on these games.

Why would you want to? What purpose would this serve that client/server doesn't?

Hacking the account server or DDoSing is not hacking the game server dumbass
There is not a SINGLE case of the game servers being compromised

>Mass Multiplayer
>can't have more than 50 people on screen

>Account hacking is so common.

Retards inserting their login infos on www.freeg0ld.org" is what's common.

I'm sure there are a few, just not in games that matter.

well yeah, people have been hit by lightning twice too
You have to hack into the server, be able to making meaningful changes to an executable you've never seen before (the hard part) and then ensure it stays running and somehow nobody notices even though you are not in physical control of the computer (the impossible part)

>This is literally how Destiny 2 is. It's an MMO with p2p connections.
Activities and physics calculations are handled on dedicated servers. Certain other features (not sure what) are offloaded as p2p though. It's a hybrid

>account infos hacked
>thousands of accounts stolen

>DDoS
>every single gamer can't login

Both are gamebreaking features related to server side of the security. Neither of these are a problem for client side games.

Also your whole argument about how these are not game server related is so retarded that I seriously think you don't even know what you're talking about. Games server run on the same database as account servers. If an account is hacked, its hacked on the same database.

>Neither of these are a problem for client side games.
Yes they are because you're talking about authentication and account servers, not the game.

>Games server run on the same database as account servers
No they aren't, they're entirely seperate servers using entirely seperate tech
Please stop posting, you have no idea what you're talking about and you're making shit up to prove yourself right

O remember leveling my character over night with the mouse clicked by a wight.

Server side requires authentication. Game accounts are required for server side database.

You're a retard.

You'd be able to run some stuff in p2p but all the gameplay-specific RPC should be handled by a centralized authority.

>I've never even seen wow private servers getting hacked by an external source and those are run by literal amateurs
There was a time when everyone was setting up their wow private server using the same guide for mangos which resulted in hundred of them running a publicly accessible phpmysql page with no password.

Peer-to-peer games use servers for account authentication and matchmaking even if the game is totally peer-to-peer. Even in server-client games these are seperate servers. The technology stack is so different that places like Steam even have their own solutions that you can use instead of building their own.
Play any RTS and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about. I have no idea why you're so intent on proving yourself right when you're talking out your ass

yeah, come to think of it my first interaction with an sql database was when i tried to set up an offline server so i could fuck around. i didn't have internet in my home at the time.

Because when you share files you don’t have to keep an updated version of those files in real time, it’s totally different from an engineering perspective...

>Devias playing Now we are free
>clan wars in Stadium
>Blood castle racing
I pity the zoomer who does not know such joy

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Works for fps's so it should definitely work p2p, plus with p2p your entire network can participate in verification so it sounds like a better deal than centralized. The only problem is muh monetization.

Absolutely no game that aims to have as fair and secure gameplay as possible has ANY calculations or variables relient on the client-side whatsoever because it IS easy to alter. If you have the server authenticating calculations and variables than you might as well cut out the middle man and just make it purely server-side which simplifies the client, the server, and security. But that makes p2p impossible.

>account infos hacked
99% of the time it's because people either re-used their passwords, leaked them themselves or a 3rd party service got hacked. The 1% is the game running insecure services getting hacked. Nothing to do with game servers though.

> DDoS
Literally has nothing to do with server-side security (there's no breach) and this is a defficiency in the internet system we use. Best you can do is put yourself behind someone else's network and hope their pipes are big enough to handle the DDoS.

>there is a computational model that is secure
>that means a computational model that is a strict superset of that computational model can never be secure
t. brainlet prime

Fucking hell the nostalgia.

youtube.com/watch?v=BghM1inEqvs

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>Atlans
But those are Stormcrow armor pieces.

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>>there is a computational model that is secure
there is, client-server

lmao butthurt

stating the truth is butthurt?

Please keep posting. Your tears are delicious!

if you pretend i'm angry does that mean you're right?

>this is a defficiency in the internet system we use
What do you think security is there for? Fancy graphics?

Yum yum yum!

Imagine being this fucking stupid

Answer is yes.

>can it be secure?
You can do number of security on p2p that matches any of the centralized MMO security. If you keep updating the clients.

>be inbred
>get btfo
>"u-ur jus 2 dumb... i wiiiiin!"
every single time.

This only works if someone's actually mad, not if they post an opinion you disagree with

Why are so many fucking retards coming into this thread and saying "yeah you can do that" without having any clue what they're talking about?
p2p doesn't work for MMOs because validation has to happen on every single connected user meaning the whole system has to go as slow as the slowest user

Zones would probably be fairly small and there would have to be hardware checks/requirements, but individuals could host zoned instances similar to guild wars 2 and store partial information about each zone and player in the zone
the issues are concurrent players, main/hub zone hosting, and who stores what, as not everyone will be hosting at the same time.

You can have a degree of p2p system. Like dark souls p2p or the torrent p2p system with a centralized tracker system.

Just because you're too retarded to think through these things doesn't make you smart.

Don't stop now, I'm about to cum baby!

>Just because you're too retarded to think through these things
I've DONE these things, you haven't even begun to think them through
Dark Souls PvP works because it's 1v1
That's not a fucking MMO
Torrents work because they are not synchronous

This is the most ignorant post in the entire thread and that's saying something.

Are you 12? Clinically retarded? Lobotomized? I want to make sure I know which one because making fun of the disabled is not in good taste, you know.

insults are not an argument

>Dark Souls PvP works

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Stringing random words in an attempt to look like you know even the most elementary bits about networking isn't an argument either, especially when it's contrary to reality to the point of almost stating its polar opposite.

I've worked on several networked games, I'm surprised if you can't understand what I'm saying, I'm not using any jargon

Darks souls PvP can happen upto 9 players at a time, last I checked. It could even be much more than that if the game limit is removed. Dark Souls's game design is not MMO but that doesn't mean p2p MMOs cant have >9 people. Show me a paper that says "Nope, 9 player is the max number of players you can have on p2p MMO network."

>I've worked on several networked games
That's bullshit, because you are equating P2P with lockstep, which is just false.

Nice strawman. Truly the last refuge of ignorance. Face it, timmy, you got called out on your utter and complete lack of even the most elementary understanding of networking. Take it like a man and grow up. While you're at it, fuck off this site, Jow Forums is 18+. Your presence here is against the rules.

If only he ever even implied he knew what lockstep even means.

And P2P needs to be lockstep for anything non-trivial otherwise you're going to have complete chaos

Wasn't aware, I've only seen 1v1, but RTS games are peer to peer too, they have a small amount of players, you can have as many players as you want, it just scales terribly because you're always held down by the connection of the slowest player

Again, no argument, only insults, who's the child here?

And I work at Nindendo.

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