I'm here to answer questions about Wayland

dilate

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can you turn off vsync?
can an opengl application bypass vsync?
is it true that windows have to draw their own title bar/decorations?

>The games don't need to "work around" the compositor - they need to work with the compositor. If a game tells the compositor that it's running in fullscreen and wants more control over the output, the compositor can simply "step back" and let the game drive the display more or less directly
where's the documentation for this?

u mad
how is it different to Xorg for developers?
Is it hard to rewrite an application to work on wayland instead of X?

AHAHAHA Holy balls this guy is mad old.reddit.com/user/_Diablo2_
Did a Wayland maintainer fucked his mom or something?

>Most application developers don't need to update anything - they just use Qt, GTK, SDL or whatever other windowing library.

>u mad
Nope because you'll never manage to replace X11 with Wayland, you're the one frantically damage controlling here now.

Being excited for this is like being excited for the next version of zlib or pango or something. So very mundane.

>Is wlroots good

yes

>Will major DEs use it

Probably not any of the ones already using Wayland, but there's a good chance future DEs will use it

>
vsync -> no, the Wayland compositor will generally render at the refresh rate of the screen and there are pains taken to address syncronization in the protocol as well.

>is it true that windows have to draw their own title bar/decorations?

Somewhat. This used to be true but weakly enforced and now there is a protocol extension for negotiating decorations. It's fairly well supported but GNOME remains stalwartly against server-side decorations.

haha "documentation"

Seriously though compositors will do this automatically but it's still not vsync. Even then, game performance on Wayland is fine so long as they don't go through Xwayland - but many of them do. Games/game engines with native Wayland support often perform quite well.

It is a lot different. It's much easier to write Wayland programs, but X11 is better documented and more examples exist. Someone is writing a book on Wayland which will hopefully clear it up. Most programs will just use a toolkit, though, and most of those have native Wayland support now.It is a lot different. It's much easier to write Wayland programs, but X11 is better documented and more examples exist. Someone is writing a book on Wayland which will hopefully clear it up. Most programs will just use a toolkit, though, and most of those have native Wayland support now.

Wayland isn't made to replace X, it's made so that the X server can become an optional piece of a functional desktop instead of being mandatory

Nah it's meant to replace X completely, and as soon as that's done the intention is to take Wayland proprietary and dual-licensed.

>is it hard to rewrite an application

It depends on how much of the application touches X. For some it's easier than others. GLFW had it pretty easy, for example, and then most GLFW programs got Wayland support for free. Firefox, for example, used a lot of X calls directly throughout and had a harder time.

Why? X.ORG works fine.

Oh wow. Where did you hear that information?

So it does. But Wayland is also cool, and better in many ways. Worse in some ways, too. I don't see it as especially dissimilar from any other two similar technologies, like why make BSD when Unix exists, or why Chrome when Firefox is a thing, etc.

GAMERS
>Not on MY rig and for MY use case - I a gamer primarily. Won't stand for performance hits.
>Now go ahead and downvote me, I'm sure it will make you feel better somehow, Hope you get the two seconds of your life back. Oh and better SLAM that mouse button down HARD... you gotta try and make the vote mean something and count somehow, right? lol
>Haha. Wayland isn't sane, it can't be since the developers aren't sane themselves - expecting everyone to "fix" their applications, just to suit NoWayland - a display stack we don't want or need!
>I am gamer primarily and will not have my routine n stuff broken because of clowns
>Source - Over 20 years experience with Linux.
>Queue the downvotes...
>Ok troll. I'll bite.
>You first, "dude".
>Won't be back for replies so don't bother as I won't see.
>I am very sorry, your ROYAL HIGHNESS, I did not mean to be so "improper"
>Guess what - I don't care! Though I'm long past my 20's (been using Linux for over 20 years), I suppose I should do the "teenage" thing now and sign off with....
>Especially with Shuttlecock at the helm.
>And yes, I know this is a "late" reply, so what, I was too busy GAMING on Linux.
>You have no clue about me, as evident "really young" - Pro Tip: I'm long past my 20's. Next, try something less insulting and I might actually read your post. Don't bother with replies as I won't see it (never read PM's either).

Sadly that seems to be typical behavior for posters on that sub.

Disaffected Red Hat employee let go with the merger with IBM.

i'll give it a spin once any remoting software works with it

Really? My dad works for IBM and he said the exact opposite.

btfo
HAHAHAHHAHAHHAHHA

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I assumed this was trolling, but since someone took the bait... this is totally false. There are no plans to relicense Wayland.

Nor does the proposition even make sense. "Wayland" isn't a monolithic pile of code like Xserver. It's rather a ~3,000 line XML file (which includes docs) and a number of protocol implementations. The most popular is libwayland, which is less than 10K lines, though several competing implementations exist. libwayland is MIT-licensed and already more or less complete - it's only seen a couple dozen commits in 2019 and no new features. If it were relicensed, the existing version would be perfectly capable and continue to serve the ecosystem fine, and would be trivially maintained by any of the dozens of projects invested in it.

imagine being this mad at a display protocol
this shit is never going to be proprietary
red hat never will make something proprietary, they bought a lot of shit and made it open source fucking retard subhuman schizo
>WAAAAAAAAAH CORPORATIONS WANT TO MELT MY BRAIN WITH 5G
HAHAHAHHAHAHHAA

>GNOME remains stalwartly against server-side decorations
doesn't that just result in inconsistency?

>Seriously though compositors will do this automatically
but will they? i'm concerned that opengl contexts will be stuck with vsync. i don't mind that being the case for regular windows, but an opengl context should have a choice.

i'm also concerned that everything freedesktop.org has produced so far is shit, so is wayland the same? i haven't tried it.

X in general is awful but wayland seems just as overengineered. why would a display protocol require 11 years of development?

Stop it, you'll scare the schizo who I was trying to bait. The guy's been posting the same lies for the last few days and feeding him facts just makes him more defensive.

Why is it three thousand lines of XML?

>overengineered
Do you have any actual technical things to share?
>why would a display protocol require 11 years of development?
The core wayland protocol and reference library hasn't seen any major changes in ages. All of the development these days are on the compositors themselves (which are complex pieces of software) and in protocol extensions.

You clearly have no fucking idea how software licensing or open source software works.
Stop spreading FUD and kill yourself.

>doesn't that just result in inconsistency?
As a Wayland hacker who doesn't work on GNOME, if we start from the assumption that GNOME must be included in any evaluation of Wayland's ecosystem, cooperativity between desktops, etc, then we're doomed to fail. They don't cooperate with Wayland any more than they cooperate with anyone else.

>but will they? i'm concerned that opengl contexts will be stuck with vsync. i don't mind that being the case for regular windows, but an opengl context should have a choice.
This isn't quite right. We'll directly scan out their buffers... at the displays framerate, and still syncronized. Wayland compositors will probably never allow turning off vsync entirely. However, there is some discussion about VR-specific stuff which gives the games full control over their display, which would be able to turn off vsync. But if you think tearing is bad normally just wait until it's half an inch from your eyes.

>i'm also concerned that everything freedesktop.org has produced so far is shit, so is wayland the same?
Freedesktop is just a code hosting platform, basically. They run Gitlab and some other stuff and provide infrastructure to other projects. They don't have any part in governance or development of the projects which make up your desktop. So, to answer your question, you have to be more specific about what parts of the desktop stack you feel are shit.

>why would a display protocol require 11 years of development?
It hasn't, it's been basically done for a long time. What takes 11 years is rewriting almost a million lines of legacy code without making any of the same mistakes as before.

Read it yourself, it's at /usr/share/wayland/wayland.xml

The real kick in the pants wouldn't be if libwayland were made proprietary, but if mesa was (there are no plans to, but it represents a much larger investment in open source Linux graphics). That'd fuck Xorg too though so it's not as good of a fuel for trolling.

I don't use a full desktop environment. I regularly hop between herbstluftwm, openbox, fvwm2, and notion for window management, combined with applications which use a lot of different toolkits (gtk2, gtk3, qt4, qt5, fltk, whatever urxvt uses, etc.). When can I expect the free software community to make their software compatible with wayland?

honestly I haven't seem this much FUD about something in a long time, week after week every day
even paid shills would be more subtle
this is without a doubt a byproduct of mental illness

A lot of options exist, in varying degrees of completion/usefulness, for catering to this audience. Sway is the most mature, but Wayfire is also pretty usable if you want the old-school compiz flair and a stacking interaction paradigm.

Almost all software works through Xwayland even if it doesn't have Wayland support natively, assuming the examples you gave. Some stuff that you can build your own piecemeal desktop out of (e.g. polybar) will be spottier, but support is better than you may expect (for example, rofi works on sway) and more Wayland-specific alternatives are availble every day (e.g. polybar -> waybar).

Someone could definitely patch mutter to support xdg-decoration but none of the current developers have expressed any interest in doing it. Their stance is that the consistency in titlebars is insignificant because for non-GTK programs, the rest of the UI will also be inconsistent.

>But if you think tearing is bad normally just wait until it's half an inch from your eyes.
latency is the most objectionable thing in VR, and vsync adds it

does wayland do anything with freesync/gsync/whatever?

If only there was an OS that doesnt force Wayland and SystemD down your throat. An OS that is 100% tear-free but where v-sync is optional and a choice of the user, as it should be. This OS should also have the best gaming performance. I wonder what OS that could be?

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maybe in the future, but right now freesync et al are poorly supported at all levels of the Linux graphics stack (including for Xorg). It won't be Wayland's problem for a while.

(not op here) if gnome wasnt default (and in charge of gtk) nobody would care, gnome users would be happy and the trolling would be 90% cut
the point is dont bother trying to analyze why they do something when the filepicker doesnt have thumbnails in -(1-2020), when they have fights in the bugtracker about type-ahead and their flagship lags like an electron app after years of 'optimizations'
let them have their vision, use something else and pray they dont fuck gtk too much if you have any programs that still use that
kde sway and the others are all cooperating with protocols and thats what matters

When will i be able to set different scaling for two different monitors?

I tried to do it on fedora and it just didn't work.

if you're going to false flag, don't do it with an OS that forces vsync'd compositing

What desktop are you using? And what version of it?

This works on sway 1.0+ and probably on most other wlroots-based compositors that support HiDPI at all, and I think KDE added it sometime in the last year

So to escape the tyranny of an init system and display protocol, you advocate switching to a nonfree OS that forces backdoors, telemetry and ads? That also forces vsync and an extremely convoluted and obtuse boot process?

I honestly don't understand how x11 apologists even exist.
X11 is atrocious, it should have died 10 years ago and it's one of the big things that prevents linux desktop.

X11 terribly cripples the experience for anything remotely visual be that gaming movies or content creation.
Watching any video or playing any game with x11 feels choppy and uneven, the whole compositing bullshit with vsync and whatnot makes frame pacing all over the place and the movies/animes appear stuttery, games look like fucking shit even when they run above 60 fps.

Also X can't do the most basic shit such as scale two different monitors to two different factors and many other important things.

Most importantly X is a bloatware that cinsists out of patches and crutches entirely so even the devs forgot how it works and nobody can fix it.

X needs to die the sooner the better, preferably 10 years ago.

Clarification: Wayland does not depend on systemd, neither in practice nor in principle. In principle Wayland could be implemented by passing paper notes in class.

A pc with 2700x and a vega 64.

I tried it earlier this year.
KDE 5.14 can only scale both monitors to the same factor.
Same with Ubuntu on gnome.

In fedora it scaled up only the gtk system application and gtk window decorations, not everything so the result was jarring
>The settings window is scaled
>The browser is not
>Another has only the titlebar scaled up, but not the contents
>It looks fucked.

you mean wayland over avian carriers
>why yes I read hacker news how did you know

X11 works great and is a widely accepted standard. Wayland doesn't even fix the problems that Wayland shills claim are huge issues with X.

It's dead in the water. It's not even a proper standard.

>X11 works great
Someone who would believe this never ran linux once

I don't believe there are any VR headsets that actually let you turn off vsync. They all seem to employ a bunch of tricks to ensure that frames are never missed and vsync never has to be disabled, which is the same thing a wayland compositor should be doing.

There are definitely some issues, but I don't have a problem with the overall vision of GNOME. The developers have their userbase who are interested in what they're interested in, if you don't like it then use another desktop.

Feel free to maintain Xorg if you want, but none of the current developers are interested in doing that anymore.

I've used it on Linux, BSD, Solaris, AIX, VMS, Windows, and BeOS.

I don't use KDE so I'm not sure, but the latest KDE is 5.16 and I think they release semi-annually or something.

X11 applications running through Xwayland are going to scale poorly. Try a native wayland browser like Firefox nightly (with GDK_BACKEND set to wayland) or epiphany if you're into gnome apps.

>none of the current developers are interested in doing that anymore.
So RedHat employees get fired from the X Consortium for dereliction of duty and new maintainers take up the reins.

Basically nothing happens in the project anyway, aside from minor bug fixes and driver updates. One person could probably do it as a half-time job if they knew C.

I guess you could say that if you only use your os for viewing text in browser, terminal and your preferred editor.

But for anything involving video X11 is an absolute diarrhea

So I have wayland installed on a VM, but it doesnt work with icecat for some reason, works with firefox.

How can I bother to use a display server like wayland if the utmost basics cannot work?

The X Consortium hasn't been a thing in over 20 years. Plus, you can't really fire someone from an open source project. If you want to maintain it then just do it. Bug fixes will probably still happen as long as Xwayland is being used, but it's unlikely the current maintainers will ever add any new extensions.

Icecat probably still requires Xwayland, which is a sort of proxy that forwards X11 windows to Wayland. Try installing that and see if it works. If not I'll need more details about your system to help out.

>An OS that is 100% tear-free but where v-sync is optional and a choice of the user, as it should be.
Windows Vista and Windows 7?
Also, holy fuck are these captchas getting hard. Took me over 10 minutes to post this.

Fucking wayland shills

KDE lacks manpower to "finish" Plasma Wayland quickly. I've been using it for about 2 years and it's fine if you have the right mentality and the features you need are already there.
But don't be like the fucking redditors that keep spamming bugtracker links everywhere and complaining. If you're like that just stay on X11 for the next decade, everybody will be happier.
There's a very good video from Martin Graesslin at OpenSUSE's conf, it shows how bad X11 really is. Having to support multiple options also made KDE better since they were able to add a lot of tests and a more flexible KWin.
community.kde.org/Get_Involved
phabricator.kde.org/project/board/99/

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Isn't the point to fully move to wayland though, whats the point of getting xWayland when its less stable than X11 itself?

Believe me I'd like to move to something thats actually in development and has future extendibility but wayland seems way too primitive right now, it hardly even works on the basics?

>Wayland is fine for gaming and fine for everything else.
That is total horseshit. There is no support for Nvidia GPU under Wayland so there is no support for gaming. AMD has something small like 10% of the market share so stating that Wayland is gaming ready is a joke. Until Wayland gets GPU acceleration properly sorted out for the major share of the market, even if only for Video rendering, it will remain a meme.

But Xorg works like shit. Will you write an X11 implementation that isnt shit?

>it's one of the big things that prevents linux desktop
don't kid yourself. if xorg were magically swapped with wayland everywhere, no one would even notice except enthusiasts

well vsync isn't up to the headset

I don't know what the point is for you or anyone else, but for me the point is to just build a cool and useful thing. Xwayland is stable enough for my needs, I haven't had any serious problems with it in a long time.

Market share does not a good GPU make. If you want to use the proprietary Nvidia driver, then no one is forcing you to leave X. It doesn't make Wayland worse that Nvidia doesn't support it - it makes Nvidia worse.

what would be the equivalent to xsetwacom on Wayland? my only use is to define a specific tablet area that maps to the whole screen, and neither the gnome tablet settings nor the kde kcm can do this (at least by using the wacom area values I have. I can't just drag an area with random values. I need that area to be of an exact size and position)
I found no documentation on how to do this on libinput, even tho it's certainly possible since I do have that option (but unfortunately it's not usable because of the reasons I explained)
I'd try and recalculate the wacom area values
to whatever libinput expects but I haven't had any free time to waste on that
it's the only thing holding me back from switching to Wayland

NVIDIA chose not to support the standard linux apis and wants people to bootlick, suck their dick and do extra work for free, for no good reason. If you want to hate Wayland for that go ahead. plasma and gnome are adding support to nvidia on wayland anyway.

that story is so common it makes me think wayland is too unstable to support

There isn't a standard Wacom configuration mechanism on Wayland. For sway (my area of expertise) see man sway-input.

It's not really unstable but it is pretty hard. wlroots helps a lot. If KDE focused on porting their Wayland implementation to wlroots they would see it rapidly improve, but I've mentioned it to them and they're not interested at the moment.

A piece of hardware can definitely be built with forced buffering. I don't own a VR headset but it seems that's the decision they've made because disabling vsync doesn't actually fix anything, it just adds more nondeterminism when what you really want is to have totally predictable frame times.

I see. I never used sway, but I might give it a try. it's for a silly gayme I play (the only one, actually), and I'm already used to this area too much to switch to something different. kinda weird each compositor ends up implementing stuff on their own. I wish the wayland standard or spec would be more complete

I'm actually pretty happy with wayland.xml. It's very conservative and forward-thinking. The use of protocol extensions to build practical Wayland systems is not a patch on a flawed design, but a core design decision that I personally agree with. We're gradually working on building out a complete suite of desktop protocol extensions, but it will take some time.

P.S. I play osu, too. On sway it works totally fine. My config is something like this:

input "1386:827:Wacom_Intuos_S_2_Pen" {
map_to_output DP-3
}

No, the current maintainers will be replaced if they can't do their job. Or most likely, Xenocara will become the 'upstream' fork and x.org will backport their fixes and drivers.

But Red Hat's plan of stealth taking over X and then declaring it dead will not stand.

>If KDE focused on porting their Wayland implementation to wlroots they would see it rapidly improve, but I've mentioned it to them and they're not interested at the moment.
Brainlet here. How hard would be this "port"? Would it involve rewritten KWin, dropping kwayland and their xwayland thing? Everything I tested works better on sway, from mpv vulkan to every native wayland util.

X.org works great here, maybe you should fix your config, kid.

It would involve overhauling kwin for sure, but I think a fair bit of it could be kept around. A lot of work will also have to be expended on porting KDE's UI to wlroots protocols, or reimplementing KDE's protocols on Kwin (the latter is probably a good stop-gap).

reminder that this is the kind of human bean you'll be replying to
old.reddit.com/user/_Diablo2_
mental illness is no joke

The current maintainers don't care if you want to maintain your own fork, they've already announced they are basically stopping work. Red hat can't take over projects any more than you can. Although my money is that the OpenBSD folks will also not want to maintain Xorg forever.

OpenBSD is making good progress on Wayland support. Most of the pieces are in place.

Did they end up using epoll-shim?

I believe so, yes.

>even going on reddit

Nah "the developers" who work for Red Hat will be replaced by developers who weren't sent in to ruin the project. This is great though, fro now on Torpedo Red Hatters will be known as project saboteurs.

It will never replace Xenocara.

It doesn't have to, but it would be nice if it worked.

Rubbish. Been using Linux for over 20 years, and I am gamer that uses Linux and only Linux on my rig. So I need THE best performance and THE best compatibility - something only Nvidia can provide. Wife just bought me a new rig (i7 8700K, GTX 1080) late last year with Nvidia. Won't touch AMD - some games don't work properly on AMD but work fine on Nvidia.
Grow up. You are one of the trolls (attempting) to troll but you do a pretty shit job at it, kid. And yes, you are a kid, obviously under 30, since you are trolling. Only teens and 20-something year old kids troll. Again, maybe you will grow up one day. You're what's wrong with social media. You basically admit to being a bully; think it's ok to troll people.
And no, *I* wasn't getting trolled (except for your piss poor attempt), I was referring to ignorant trolls in general., such as yourself. Grow up.
Actually, some do. Richard Stallman is not a troll and called it GNU/Linux, or just GNU. So do others. Your logic is flawed; typical obnoxious Windows gamer "Logic".
And for what it's worth - I to am a gamer but I use Linux. No Windows.
Because I LOVE to preach Linux! And I also like to feast on Winboi (Ignorant Windows Users / Fanboys) energy, and convert it to postive Linux Gaming energy! By the way, I'm primarily a gamer and Linux is all I use on my gaming rig. No Windows at all.

The current maintainers (some of whom work for Red Hat, but not all) have already indicated that they are stopping major work on the project.

> Wayland is fine for gaming
>doesn't support the largest GPU vendor in the market
>s-s-shut up that's a feature

I've only heard nice things about sway. really gotta try it as soon as I can
I'm conflicted about the wayland thing. ability to extend easily sure is very nice, and important stuff being implemented as extensions on some implementations are a consequence of wayland being very young, so it's understandable
and I was pretty sure I was going to be shamed for playing osu and my question would go unanswered. thanks

can you tell gnome to fix their compositor's bugs? scrolling in firefox (for example) is visibly sluggish and 'heavy' and sometimes there are whole chunks of the screen misplaced (like artefacts)
there's a minor stutter every few sec that ruins video playback and there are huge frame drops (for me) with 60fps videos, where in a wm there are none

I have not had success telling GNOME to do anything at all so far

>Wayland is fine for gaming
you know you can switch to another TTY right?

Holy shit to be this stupid.