X.org dying soon

>The reality is that X.org is basically maintained by us and thus once we stop paying attention to it there is unlikely to be any major new releases coming out and there might even be some bitrot setting in over time
utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog/unix/XDeathwatchStarts
based redhat/gnome devs killing X. make the move Jow Forums

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Other urls found in this thread:

drewdevault.com/2019/02/10/Wayland-misconceptions-debunked.html
phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Waypipe-Wayland-Proxy
youtube.com/watch?v=Zsz7Shbnb9c
access.redhat.com/documentation/en-us/red_hat_enterprise_linux/8/pdf/8.0_release_notes/Red_Hat_Enterprise_Linux-8-8.0_release_notes-en-US.pdf
wio-project.org/
old.reddit.com/user/_diablo2_
github.com/mate-desktop/mate-panel/pull/991
linkedin.com/in/scott-anderson-130b99146/
twitter.com/SFWRedditGifs

stop

Stop

Fuck yourself nigger

I don't care about X dying, but you better make sure Wayland can do at least most of what X could before killing it.

/thread

Yup. Wayland has far greater potential, and it is moving ahead (relatively slowly) so it will be superior, but they REALLY gotta make some significant gains.

/thread

Or what?

plot twist
>xorg has been always dead

> When you are years behind schedule and other attempts to save face failed so you resort to hubris and threats
"Well I don't care if Xorg works better for you because I'm just gonna take it away!"
As if they truly believe no one is willing to maintain Xorg, which btw has been "complete" for many years, updates are only for bug fixes and added features.
I agree with the premise of Wayland, but they are full of shit, also, they will be required to keep working on Xorg until every common application can run without Xwayland, so they are full of shit not even in that they think they are it's lifeline, but also in the sense that they think they'll really stop work any time soon.

They have actual corporate money flowing in and they still move at the snails pace of unfunded OSS. I'm sure it'll get forced in everywhere eventually though, just like systemd, pulseaudio, eventually pipewire, etc.

The only truth in the thread. Shit was already deprecated when it made it to Linux. NeXT/apple were smart enough to replace it, how many years ago?

Can you name one person who's willing to step up and maintain Xorg?

Can you name one person who's willing to step up and maintain FVWM?

I don't even know what that is

Based

Wayland is already 10 years old.
If anything Wayland is depricated because it was introduced when KMS/DRM didn't exist.
Now it tries to duplicate kernel functionality in userspace with questionable priorities (e.g. tearing over latency).

So far no Wayland compositor has been demonstrated that beats bare X in performance and resource usage.

I used to get stuck in swap hell on my shitty laptop when I was using Xorg, it doesn't happen anymore on my sway desktop though

Very based indeed. Fuck all the trannies whining about "I need muh bloated xorg". They need to man up and make the fucking switch. It's going anywhere either for a long time, at least until they don't need Xwayland anymore to run gaymes and shit

Doesn't Redhat need to man up first... RHEL doesn't use Wayland and it's not the roadmap.

desu

I still can't use that shit with an nvidia card and plasma. 5.16 was supposed to work but it doesn't

Don't use Shitvidia you retarded nigger. Nvidia doesn't get any kind of Wayland support by anyone besides Gnome.

Is Wayland the 'Nuclear Fusion' of the Li/Unix community?

Daily schizo reddit wayland schill thread
Fuck off

>X.org dying soon
way(intothefuture)land is going to take a while

im about to BTFO this whole thread
drewdevault.com/2019/02/10/Wayland-misconceptions-debunked.html
phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Waypipe-Wayland-Proxy
youtube.com/watch?v=Zsz7Shbnb9c

It's like people don't even bother to look shit up before posting nonsense
access.redhat.com/documentation/en-us/red_hat_enterprise_linux/8/pdf/8.0_release_notes/Red_Hat_Enterprise_Linux-8-8.0_release_notes-en-US.pdf
RHEL is now defaulting to Wayland. It's not getting rid of X yet (you can blame NVIDIA for that), but to say it doesn't use Wayland or that Wayland is "not [on] the roadmap" is either a blatant lie or a serious lack of ability to do ~2 minutes of duckduckgo searching

Attached: 2019-07-04-081230_796x184_scrot.png (796x184, 32K)

Guess I'll be forced to switch back to Windows then since they refuse to support nvidia

Reverse that, since NVIDIA refuses to support it.

>Poettering is powermad
>SystemD is a botnet
>Wayland is a murder of the good old Unix philosophy and doesnt support Nvidia

There are a few valid complaints here, but make no mistake, Microshaft shills are working around the clock posting these threads.

>If anything Wayland is depricated because it was introduced when KMS/DRM didn't exist.
>Now it tries to duplicate kernel functionality in userspace with questionable priorities (e.g. tearing over latency).
Completely untrue in every sense of the word. DRM/KMS is one of the many things that made Wayland even viable.
All Wayland compositors make extensive use of that API. The API has evolved since then, and Wayland compositors are the ones making use of it. Xorg doesn't give a flying fuck about atomic modesetting, because it tears like a motherfucker anyway.

Haven’t you forgot bud? Tearing is a feature

>Wayland is a murder of the good old Unix philosophy and doesnt support Nvidia
First, see Second:
for a group of people that jerk themselves off over software minimalism, there sure are a lot of people that love to suck the bloated dick of X. The same people who cry "Systemd does way too much for an init system!" seem to have no problem with all of the shit a display server shouldn't be doing, and they're too fucking retarded to understand that the Wayland protocol will eventually/has already gotten standardized extensions/addons for the sorts of shit they're bitching about (for instance, screensharing is now implemented under Pipewire, which on a side note, will kill another cancer, PA, eventually)

>Wayland is a murder of the good old Unix philosophy
dude what
wayland does the bare minimum, it puts windows on the screen and lets clients put stuff in them
X is so involved, it's basically it's own OS, sure we don't touch most of it nowadays (the few bits we use is the bits wayland implements, put simply), but that doesn't mean X is doing one thing, nor doing anything well

The problem is that Wayland doesn't learn from the mistakes from X.
X11 had bad drawing primitives (no transparency, antialiasing, etc.). That is why nobody used them and we have this toolkit shitshow with Gtk and Qt.
So instead of offering powerful drawing primitives like provided by Cairo Wayland offers NO drawing primitives.
This means we have to keep the toolkit shitshow and throw sensible network transparency out of the window with it.
Also now everybody has to implement his own font renderer again.

Also instead ot learning from others like rio how to implement a sensible file based interface that allows rearrange windows, Wayland defines NOTHING at the cost that every niche functionality will be implement in different Wayland compositors with incompatible protocols or worse: using dbus.

All your complaints are that Wayland doesn't define enough in its protocol but that is exactly the reason why it's good. It's intended to be the display server protocol underneath everything else. It's not trying to be all that and the kitchen sink like X11 was. Wayland forcing the use of Cairo would offer nothing.
The toolkits are never going anywhere, no one would use a display server protocol that forced an implementation of yet another toolkit.
Network transparency for Wayland is currently being worked on, but you can still use Xwayland as a fallback if you need network transparency right now.
Nobody has to implement their own font renderer, you just use freetype which everyone has always used.
The compositors being able to implement things themselves is a good thing. Be glad they didn't force everyone to use D-Bus. There is a proof of concept for rio on wayland. It doesn't have the file system interface, but that could be added. wio-project.org/

That's some good insight into Wayland's design flaws.

It seems like Wayland could be replaced by a better project, as long as there's an X11 server so you can run all your favorite games and applications on it. How bout it?

>SystemD is bad because it eschews the unix philosophy and forces everyone to use the same solutions to common problems
>Wayland is bad because it only enforces a shared solution to the minimal common problem that needs to be solved

like pottery

This "network transparency" is nothing more than a giant video pumped over the wire. Absolutely stupid.

The wio-project only replactes "the look and feel" of rio, which is the worst part of it. What complete idiots, rio looks like garbage, only its virtual filesystem is interesting.

Most programs on modern X are just a giant bitmap rendering into a window, and so they already use that method of network transparency. But slower because there is no compression.
If you want the virtual filesystem then feel free to submit a patch that does that, nothing is stopping you.

That is why you need drawing primitives. Otherwise network transparency doesn't make sense.

>mah network transparency
what fucking decade is this? not even X has been network transparent in a long-ass time

No, nobody "needs" those. No modern toolkits use the Xlib primitives. You can keep using your clunky 90s Motif applications on X if you really want, but no one else wants that.

Xcalc, xterm, xman, xedit and xclock work just fine even over a modem line.

Of course X11 primitives are bad. That is why we should use Cairo as drawing primitives. Even Webkit runs on a Cairo backend. You could make a network transparent Webkit based browser that transmits no images except when there are actual images.

Who is we? If you want to do that then just do it, nobody else wants to do it. At best, that is just another method of compression that could make some workloads faster, and some a lot slower. Cairo is not the only graphics backend out there so that also won't work with many applications, in particular every Qt application, and Chromium and Firefox which use Skia.

Just released xorg 1.21 which has working Nvidia Optimus and then xorg is complete.

Thank you based redhat

We have this thread so much now that I can't tell who's false flagging who anymore.

you can find copy and pasted answers from months ago. the fud/mental illness is real

FYI PSA ELI5 Daily reminder that this is the kind of shill you're dealing with old.reddit.com/user/_diablo2_

Attached: reminder.jpg (800x800, 183K)

Gayland shills are being sponsored by redhat

>reasons to move from Windows to Linux
>gaming
Holy shit this delusion

a new entry has been added to the dsm-5
>Haha. Wayland isn't sane, it can't be since the developers aren't sane themselves - expecting everyone to "fix" their applications, just to suit NoWayland - a display stack we don't want or need!
>XWayland is NOT a solution and isn't practical. At the very least there is a performance hit, and as a gamer primarily, that is not acceptable. I Hate Windows but would rather sooner be on Windows if forced to Wayland (after over 20 years of Linux).
Wayland (lol) is crap. I personally will NEVER have Wayland on my Linux Gaming Rig - EVER. I Hate Windows and would sooner be on Windows if I was forced to Wayland or I have a No Confidence Motion in Linux / the direction of. I've been using Linux for over 20 years and X is fine. What isn't fine is NoWayland - a broken display stack nobody asked for or needs; and even more concerning, the future of Linux, also due to other events. That for now is just a concern...
>Wayland breaks everything I have and all my functions, including previously released games, WINE / Staging / Crossover, as well as various WM's / DE n scripts n stuff that I rely on - including various features that X provides that Wayland never will because the developers are all... "lol no WONTFIX". Disabling compositing is one of those features I use all the time, especially when gaming.
>At the very least there is a performance drop and that is NOT acceptable.
>I am gamer primarily and will not have my routine n stuff broken because of clowns telling me I "need a new display stack" - guess what - WONTFIX! And no, XWayland is NOT a solution and not practical.
this guy is a living copypasta

>Wayland breaks everything I have and all my functions, including previously released games, WINE / Staging / Crossover, as well as various WM's / DE n scripts n stuff that I rely on - including various features that X provides that Wayland never will because the developers are all... "lol no WONTFIX". Disabling compositing is one of those features I use all the time, especially when gaming.
Idiots like this can get fucking bent
Many people complained about all their custom shit breaking and incompatibles during the move from the win9x hybrid kernel to NT or when Apple moved across 3 different architectures
Both Windows and Mac went on to be more successful desktop operating systems than Linux ever did

mate is getting wayland support github.com/mate-desktop/mate-panel/pull/991
lxqt too but thats going really slow
I could be wrong but from briefly reading the mailing list it seems that literally everybody is cooperating and sharing a lot except for gnome, fucking hell
and wayland is not owned by redhat so save us from your inb4 fud

>except for gnome
Nothing you can really do about that. Just let gnome babbies deal with their own crippled retarded platform.

Linux is millions of programs interconnected between each other, over time things get complicated and messed up but people never replace those programs because they love them.
You need proper documentation, communities irc servers and so on, they will teach how to navigate the biggest magic castle ever build.
Rooms filled with secrets and traps, swords that will cut through exeneium and kill appleoids with no gui at all but to obtain that power you have to work for it. You either accept this routine or perish in eternal pain and transform into another ghost fork that wanders the castle with no aim nor purpose. hispers get tired very quickly and instead of playing the castle rules they try to demolish big chunks of it so they can skip that hustle, they build a new tower with nothing in it besides their inflated ego, pure empties. But then something happens! they forget to close the main gate and all those magic programs start invading their personal bubble, the forks appear, more hacks than ever start popping and bumm! their tower is like the rest of the castle because the truth is that you wont ever escape lonix.

what's the overlap between people in control of the wayland protocols and weston repos, and people who are in control of gnome? do they have enough numbers to make it a problem? I've seem a lot from intel there and they seem like good people

Look, despite Red Hat being kind of the evil lords in Linux right now, I can't blame them for pushing wayland, X shouldn't exist anymore but the problem is wayland works like shit and doesn't seem to be getting any better even after all these years. If other major distro's don't like it, they can try to find a solution themselves. Sadly, starting with systemd, Debian, the only non corporate big enough distro to challenge the corporate pigs, decided to bend over and take systemd up its ass. Ubuntu just leeches of Debian(ah yes they came with snaps, great) so that doesn't help too. What else is left? Some niche linux distro that breaks with a fart?
All I hope is that wayland stops sucking for good, which seems to be far fetched as of now.

We appreciate your concern

WHAT THE FUCK, SO XORG WAS THE PROBLEM FOR ME!?!?

>try Linux every year since 2015
>horrible stuttering when scrolling, moving windows around or watching youtube
>go back to windows every time and make a thread on Jow Forums
>see Wayland is about to delet Xorg
>install Ubuntu 19.04 on spare SSD (third time this year...)
>log out, click gear icon and select Wayland
>login
>no more stutter, youtube videos are smooth
>only screen tearing remains

WHAT THE FUCK. HOW WAS XORG ALLOWED TO LIVE FOR THIS LONG? GONNA MAKE LINUX MY DAILY DRIVER NOW AND ONLY USE WINDOWS FOR """"WORK"""""" AND GAMING NOW WTF

FUCK XORG

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>what's the overlap between people in control of the wayland protocols and weston repos, and people who are in control of gnome?
Not much. Gnome has already lost a few times to upstream wayland (i.e. the xdg-decoration protocol). Most of the commits to wayland come from people that have nothing to do with gnome.

>wayland
>screen tearing
Shouldn't even be possible

I would have believed you but GNOME is not smooth on wayland or xorg. No need to evangelize Wayland just a) don't spread fud and b) BTFO of wayland fudders like it has been done every single thread so much that they make a new one :^)

>Screen tearing in Wayland
Stop lying

>Gnome has already lost a few times to upstream wayland

Attached: btfo.jpg (858x540, 216K)

I already explained to you yesterday why every single """argument""" you shit out is wrong on a fundamental level. Let me repeat myself: The Gayland display server tries to do too many things, that is a direct contradiction to Unix philosophy. And Pipewire will not "kill another cancer", it will introduce another one, you retarded shill.

Daily reminder this is the kind of schizo you're dealing with
linkedin.com/in/scott-anderson-130b99146/

>The Gayland display server tries to do too many things
Such as?

>window manager
>hotkey daemon
>compositor
>the windowing server
>screen reading tools
>screenshots
>screen casting
>font rendering
>etc.
Retard.

Did you just mix up Wayland with Xorg? What the fuck are you complaining about now.

>Did you just mix up Wayland with Xorg?
This is a good point to end the conversation, because you've just proven yourself to be not only a cocksucking retard, but a schizo too. Goodbye.

> and make a thread on Jow Forums
You were an attentionwhore back then, just like you are now.

Or it'll be the year of the Windows desktop.

>complains that wayland does too much
>ask what things it does that it shouldn't
>responds with a list of things that xorg (sometimes) does and then calls me a schizo
What is wrong with you people.

wtf I thought they were joking but you really are that dude from reddit, same pontuation, """drops the mic""" at every chance or when you get btfo (daily occurrence), same stupid points that get debunked and you still keep repeating them
sad, really

You're playing dumb.
I don't even have a reddit. But you should definetly go back there, how about making a thread on Jow Forumsunixporn?

so should I install wayland on my next rebuild, I'm doing it in a few weeks
please respond

> If you want to do that then just do it, nobody else wants to do it.
There are people that get paid full time to work on Xorg/Wayland.
I have a real job. I can't write my own display server with serialized drawing primitive because I don't have the time.
Also at some point people have to agree on a standard. That is what I meant with "we".

>killing a free and open source program used by millions

what did Jow Forums mean by this?

Do you seriously think that Wayland should do rendering or am I misunderstanding you?

Yes, then make a thread about your findings. I'm curious on switching X for a beta alternative is worth it.

should I also do zfs on root
please respond

Yes Wayland should do rendering!
It will lead to efficient network transparency.
Also you save one buffer swap and could reduce latency on local systems that way.

In a few years it’ll be wayland with millions of users once the major distros switch and people upgrade

Oh no, it's you again. Xorg doesn't do any rendering 99% of the time by the way.

>can do at least most of what X could
which capabilities Wayland doesn't have yet then?

realistically how hard is it to use wayland nowadays? the last time I used it I had all kinds of retarded problems but that was years and years ago. kde on arch.

He doesn't know. He has no arguments. I'm betting he'll say network transparency, even though that's already been solved.

MINECRAFT

Attached: fix ur shit.png (854x480, 315K)

> Oh no, it's you again. Xorg doesn't do any rendering 99% of the time by the way.
But when it does (e.g. xterm) it has superior performance to Wayland especially concerning networking and latency.

>gnome
Terrible but then again gnome sucks on Xorg too so you deserve it.

>kde
Probably okayish by now. There might be some lingering bugs though.

>sway
Just works for me.

If you autistically need X feature that doesn't really exist on wayland, then you won't be happy.

xterm is a bloated monster and you should feel bad for defending it.

>muh ~20ms of terminal latency
Go to a mental institution and seek help.

>enabled vsync for swapping images
>expects high fps
afaik Wayland doesn't seem to have IMMEDIATE presenting mode (in Vulkan API), it uses MAILBOX instead
Maybe this game can't disable vsync properly on Wayland

Still can't record my screen with the flexibility X allows.

Might as well just use Windows at this point.

What specific functionality are you referring to? I'm curious.

i always play minecraft with vsync on because it's smoother and the small amount of latency doesn't really matter. it literally never drops a frame on X.org.
(someone else here told me the problem is with XWayland)

anybody who thinks wayland is ready should try using wine

They might be both Vsynced but the monitor looks like its set to 144hz and the other is set to 60hz
Minecraft’s FPS with vsync disabled should be fluctuating a lot more but on xorg it looks like it’s locked to 144hz