Wayland fudders btfo once again

you're right its taking a long time but it's in a good state now, I believe many were waiting not only for the protocol itself to mature before start writting code but also for others to do the initial work
all the big players are working towards wayland, toolkits were already ported, wine is working on full support, etc
I was reading about wayland recently and I found this
>>[–]ascent_wlrsway/wlroots Dev 16 points 4 months ago
>>Wayland has been here since 2008 and that's a lot of time, or am I wrong?
>While technically true, this doesn't accurately reflect how Wayland development has actually been. The protocol was originally started in 2008, and it was many years before that got to the point where it was reasonably stable.
>What actually takes all of the time are writing Wayland compositors themselves. For the longest time, the only "serious" Wayland compositor was Weston, which was mainly intended as a test-bed and is actually pretty painful for desktop use. Most desktop-oriented Wayland compositors only started working on their support seriously maybe 3-4 years ago. Writing a display server a lot of work, so it's no surprise that this took a while to get to a useful state, and there is still so much to be done.

Even microsoft with their dxgi etc changes went through some very hard times and bugs. And they control the entire stack. And have a trillion dollars to throw at it. It's a miracle everybody (except GNOME) is collaborating so much. Not without friction but still a very nice thing to see. Still fine to be sceptical, x.org will be here for a long time if you really hate wayland or it's not ready for your usecase.

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i thought wayland was a protocol not a server

I got some alternatives for GIMP.
N.I.G.A. (Network Integrated Graphic Artistry)
F. A. G. (Free Art Graphics)
S.L.U.T. (Software License Utilization Tool)
G.O.O.K. (Graphic Overlay Optimization Kit)

What is a discord trannie and why do alt-right zoomers care so much about them?

>Network Integrated GNU Graphic Artistry

New Improved GNU Graphics Editor Renamed

Attention seeking idiots who shit up threads (or even make threads) with irrelevant bullshit
They seem to congregate on Discord where they may or may not organize websites to go to

le edgy racism and homophobia xD

what does this emote mean?

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>it's not ready yet
nigger you can use it on gnome, if you're ok with gnome's frame drops

REMINDER that you DONT have to use gayland for everything

there's this think called CTRL ALT F2

Free And GNU Graphics Operation Tool

op here, I've been using plasma-wayland and sway for >2 years
when I say it's not ready it's because for the usual Jow Forums user ready means: it needs to cover every single xorg feature even if I don't need it

>it needs to cover every single xorg feature
but it doesn't

>just dual boot
well what does wayland provide that xorg doesn't?

>dual boot

fuck you're thick

*throws your hands up in frustration*

i'm not sure i understand

or you're a moron

Stop wasting all of your time here and go read a book

i meant that as in running two things which should be equivalent at the same time, using words referencing the more common "running windows and linux"
it's a fucking joke

>reddit shit
I'm already using it and it works perfectly fine but the fact that you're paying attention to that shit makes me even happier that I'm staying on it. sorry but it's "new" and works well. X may work for 100% of shit but wayland is catching up and becoming very usable. X is complete but we need an improvement

legit concern here: now that most distros are shifting away from X, what will happen to window managers based on X? Won't we be able to render software after a while? I am anxious about my beautiful dwm setup

You should go where suckless people hang out and help them come to terms with their hypocritical dependencies on something as bloated as Xorg

>should be
but they're not, by design

>now that most distros are shifting away from X
they aren't
also' dwm sucks

X isn't going anywhere. It's literally a gigantic boulder that nobody can move and has been at the same spot for thousands of years

maybe i'm not being clear
i don't want to have to run wayland and xorg at the same time in different VT's, that's dumb and inconvenient
i'll stick to xorg until wayland can do everything i currently do

while i can understand criticism this faggot clearly is an enemy of mankind

Well, what they made basically interfaces existing functions of some X components. It's not exactly their deal what happens to X. You can startx without any window manager and run graphical software with just an X session, they just made a nice wrap around it with a tiling scheme and workspaces

Yet being a hipster and moving to *nix is a trend now and a lot of developers are shifting away from "boulders"

Maybe it sucks for you, whatever works best for one is best for one

someone will rebuild dwm on wayland
like sway to i3

yeah

Distros will remove Xorg from their repo and drop all software that doesn't run in XWayland such as dwm. Remember that the maintainers of X are the same people who maintain Wayland so once Wayland is adopted widely, they'll stop security updates.

>i don't want to have to run wayland and xorg at the same time in different VT's, that's dumb and inconvenient
why?

no it sucks because it's using obsolete libs, for xorg...

can we get someone from here or off here motivated to create something like a "bear wayland session" much like X does when you startx applicationNameHere ? If that exists, I believe it's a solid base for a dwm-like project to be done

>why?
because everything works in xorg?

and it also sucks because it's shit to use

Wayland is trash and has backdoors.

Maybe it sucks for you, but it does the job for me. I don't need new shiny stuff to satisfy my ego like you do. I do have a problem though when very minimal shit ends up obsolete even though it's minimal.

I predict we'll be using X for yet another decade, XWayland for even longer.

Jow Forumseniuses be like
>Systemd sucks because it is bloated! Muh Unix way.
>nothing wrong with xorg though, that's good bloat who cares that it even had a fucking print server for some reason

you literally fell for a meme

You literally cannot backup your arguments because you are stuck up wanting new shiny stuff

I don't know who's baiting who at this point

not him but
>avoiding shit because Jow Forums says it's a meme
you're the most pathetic type of person on this board

i already did, you were too stupid to notice

>avoiding shit because it's shit
ftfy

it's perfectly fine if you came to that conclusion. it's only pathetic if you never used it and assume it's shit because somebody on here said it was

>for some reason
i thought it was pretty obvious why it had a print server

Damn, you got noticed on an anonymous imageboard for posting a few lines. That will show me!

Please go back to having vacations, a year of not studying awaits you next year. :')

Small brain: suckless
Medium brain: average Jow Forums user
Large brain: cat-v

wait, i see what you did there:
all three are total memes

the thing is we all should just make the switch, there's absolutely no point in staying at xorg and we should force developers to make the switch, we can't still be using something so fucking oudated and awful that nobody but us uses, please, stop fucking using xorg.

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what do YOU know about xorg bucko?

i know that it is outdated and slow as shit, user.
sure, some systems may be still forced to used it, but that's the reason, mate, if we keep procrastinating, we as a community won't go forward so far we are stuck in the past.

have you maintained any packages I would know where xorg was your real issue, or are you just LARPing as part of the "we" you are referring to?

>if you never used it
i have

I'd say it has actually used you if you are so emotional about it

im not a vagina

Then why are you bitching like a cunt? :^o

that's why xwayland exists, so you don't have to do that

just type sway in any VT to start up a new session

it's also important to note the progress of wlroots. an intermediate library that does much of the heaven lifting with wayland will be a big benefit to wm development. according to the wiki most of the API is still unstable though. i have a suspicion that a lot of people, myself included, will start developing on it once it gets its first major version number
i agree the debate about the name of gimp is kinda stupid but i would say the poor quality of microsoft code far outweighs any problems with project politics i might have

>that's why xwayland exists, so you don't have to do that
what's the benefits of using wayland?
i'm pretty sure 90% of the things i use don't even support wayland, i mostly use gtk2 stuff

I was doing this but I can't into wlroots

Easier to just contribute to wlroots and let the randos battle their implementations until you get your whatever-clone. Everybody wins. I mean wayfire and waycooler were reimplemented like 200 times? Now it's not rust anymore? I don't even know, just randoposting.

We can definitely do a bit better to make it well documented, and perhaps provide more helpers for various other common things you might want to do.
But part of the "issue" (not really; it's deliberate) is that wlroots is a "batteries not included" type of library. You're given a lot of control, which allows you to implement novel types of compositors, but that pushes a lot of complexity onto the users. A wayland compositor is a pretty complex type of program, so it's going to be pretty hard to do, unless the library is so high-level that it basically just becomes a faff API that is essentially just a skin for an existing compositor and you can't implement any of the extra features you really want.

>according to the wiki most of the API is still unstable though. i have a suspicion that a lot of people, myself included, will start developing on it once it gets its first major version number
So far, wlroots version numbers have essentially been meaningless, and have purely been for sway's sake.
Yes, most of the API is still unstable, and there are plans to change some very core parts of the API in very major ways. I'll admit that I'm the one chiefly responsible for trying to break shit.

If my whole renderer, backend, and wlr_compositor overhauls all work as nicely as well as I hope they do, hopefully then can we actually start committing to keeping stable APIs.

right i just used major version number because generally 1.0 indicates a suitability for public use in an application that provides an api afaik

as long as you're breaking stuff to ensure a better long-term future for the project, i am 100% on board. you can't rush success, as much as i would like to get cracking on a still or at least stable target

You could "do a bit better" if you throw the whole concept of Wayland out of the window.
Mandatory composition, no drawing primitives and no standards to do the most basic things means Wayland will always suck no matter how "well documented" it is.
The holocaust was also "well documented".

>no drawing primitives
does anything even use those primitive anymore?
or do you mean we should go back to that?
can you explain why?

Nobody used X11 primitives because they don't support transparency and anti-aliasing.
However software that uses those primitives runs really well on X. They have low latency and work remotely even over a low bandwidth serial line because no bitmaps are transferred.
X11 primitives even are perfectly capable to reproduce the "material design" that is so popular nowadays.
Since much software including Gnome and Webkit on Linux use Cairo as backend Cairo would be perfectly suitable for modern drawing primitives.
If you want to go further you could use Vulcan which even can be serialized via the "fossilize" library hence would efficiently work over the network.

sounds interesting, has someone tried this? is there any evidence that this is something worth doing?

hmm, looks like some toolkits and browsers already, and have for some time, use cairo for their 2D drawing
what i'm curious about is whether it's cheaper to transfer serialized cairo commands, or a compressed bitmap
there would certainly be a point where the latter would be true, i just mean most/typical cases

literally the only thing i need a window system for is browsing. you can even watch movies from fbdev.

"Fossilizing" works already. There is no serialized "protocol" for Cairo yet but that should be really easy in concept since it is just a bunch of drawing commands.
The "evidence" that it is worth doing are native X11 apps (e.g. that are using Athena Widgets) work really well both locally with low latency and over the network.
It is against the design principles of Wayland to include any drawing. So trying this on Wayland will be shot down by any dev there in an almost religious manner.

It is much cheaper to just transfer drawing commands. Especially when your bitmap is created by drawing commands anyways.
Just compare the average complex SVG (which is a really bad way to serialize drawing) with the equivalent Bitmap.
Using Cairo would even offer the ability to scale to any dpi required with high qaulity.

right, so it's like "why use a terminal emulator over vnc when you can just send text"
considering X used to work this way, surely this is something they considered, so what's their consensus regarding not doing this?

> so what's their consensus regarding not doing this?
It is not the "modern way" to do things.

isn't the modern way just "a hack to make something not updated since 1987 look modern"?

Most of his criticisms aren't even valid. Wayland had sway, which is basically just waylandified i3. Nvidia in general sucks on Linux because they're cunts about working with the community, how is this Wayland's fault? Intel had always literally just worked everything, so he's just lying through his teeth. GNOME and sway handled remapping input just fine when I was using my autistic layout keyboard.

You could make Athena Widget look like modern "material design" guis. Nobody does that.
The "modern way" in this case means to blit bitmaps in a very inefficient way.

hmm... at the end of the day, windows will end up as rendered bitmaps to composited onto the final framebuffer, so does this have any benefit for local displays?
would it be possible to make a wayland compositor that has this capability? is it just a matter of "it's not official so it won't be taken up by others"?

> so does this have any benefit for local displays?
Making drawing primitives server side will spare you one buffer swap which could helpt to reduce latency.
> would it be possible to make a wayland compositor that has this capability?
No, it is not according to protocol specification. As long as the protocol doesn't change Wayland will never have any drawing.

if there a bug/feature request made for this? anything that can be tracked?

Go read the gitlab: gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gimp/issues/3617 and github.com/opal/opal/issues/941

Take notice how suddenly all these trannies appear out of nowhere? Its all coordinated in chatrooms, some use Discord, some use Mastodon, others Slack and Telegram. The Opal case is particularly insidious because its run by the same tranny that runs the CoC scam. Recognize a mafia style shakedown for what it is, the tranny comes and creates a problem; the rest of the group starts signal boosting how much of a problem this is and hurf durf we need to do something about this. Suddenly you're provided a CoC that "solves" the issue that never really existed in the first place. Once you accept the "solution" you're now engaged in endless litigious quibbling over this or that rule. Its purposefully designed to break apart communities. I came from Somethingawful to Jow Forums back in 2004, but I stuck around on SA for a number of years for its gaming communities. This same block busting tactic was done there, get access to the moderator functions and purge away anyone who isn't zealously following your ideology is the goal.

>edgy racism and homophobia
Where do you think you are...?

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You can try it but it will probably be shut down immediately because of the religious "Wayland does no drawing" mantra.

You clearly have no understanding for how modern applications are actually written. Everybody has been doing client-side drawing for decades, and that's probably never going to change. You could come up with some immaculate server-side API, but nobody would use it. No matter what you do, it will always be more limited that client-side rendering, where they can do whatever they want how they want. Not everybody is doing the type of drawing that is suited to Cairo in particular.

Not to mention, that CPU-drawing is actually an increasingly rare thing to happen these days too. With things like 4K displays, clients have to push some seriously large buffers, which CPUs just can't manage at reasonable framerates, so even "simple" GUI programs are being written in OpenGL and Vulkan.

So, what's the point of trying to force shitty drawing primates into the protocol?

You don't seem to understand that the Wayland protocol has extensions, which people actually make extensive use of.
You COULD add an extension with drawing primitives, but nobody wants to, because that's a dumb idea.

The known solution is to base peoples opinions on their contribution to the project.
And oh look, they attack "the meritocracy"!