The death watch for the X Window System has probably started
>X is FINISHED and BANKRUPTED for REAL this time
does anyone know any good xorg jokes with a funny punchline?
You are tearing me apart, X dot org!! haha based
Is this going to be pulseaudio all over again? Pushing wayland in a half broken state onto users to make people actually want to fix it because its so unbearable?
Let me get back to you on that one
Good. X was a trashfire from its inception, a monolithic fly in the ointment that was *NIX. The only reason it persisted this long was that nothing better had managed to replace it in a universal sense.
You can argue all day about Wayland's problems, and there are many, but it at the very least has the correct separation of concerns and doesn't bother with obsolete parlor tricks like network transparency.
This.
X is absolute, unadulterated, pure fucking garbage, and I wholeheartedly welcome the advent of Wayland, or literally any other display server/protocol that comes along and takes X to the fucking gallows once and for all.
The model as a whole is extremely outdated, visibly inefficient, insecure, and it such a fucking mess of spaghetti code and extensions and life support that only a few people on the planet still understand how to actually maintain it. Their opinion on X? "Kill it with fire, please."
For a group of people that love to lambaste Windows users for having "babyduck syndrome", I've never seen more babyducks when it comes to the retards peddling the "x-xorg just werks" shit and spreading dumbfuck FUD about Wayland. (Of course, in all fairness, it doesn't help when all the distros out there wanted to be the first kids on the block to use Wayland and started pushing it out before it was 100% ready, leading to the average retarded joe to swear off of it.)
Similarly, for a group of people that jerk themselves off over software minimalism, there sure are a lot of people that love to suck the bloated dick of X. The same people who cry "Systemd does way too much for an init system!" seem to have no problem with all of the shit a display server shouldn't be doing, and they're too fucking retarded to understand that the Wayland protocol will eventually/has already gotten standardized extensions/addons for the sorts of shit they're bitching about (for instance, screensharing is now implemented under Pipewire, which on a side note, will kill another cancer, PA, eventually)
Simply put, and in simple user terms--X is responsible for a lot of the jankiness of the Linux desktop (as you'd expect of a display server that's been kept on life support for 30 years), and when Wayland is eventually adopted, it'll go a LONG way towards bringing Linux to the fucking 21st century.
youtube.com
Good video on the subject.
Wayland is complete garbage. Gnome users might feel no difference except worse latency.
Ricers will never switch.
Ever wondered why there are no screenshot threads with Wayland rices?
It is insanely complicated make screen shots in Wayland!
So people make pictures with their phone.... (pic related)
it works fine
The opinion of tranny Gnome users doesn't apply.
i use sway
>It is insanely complicated make screen shots in Wayland!
$ grim -g $(slurp) wewlad.png
Every time I try sway with nouveau it's laggy, programs I use daily don't load, and tray icons still don't work by default. I will NEVER switch from X until this is all working flawlessly the way it does with X
Only works with sway.
Won't work on other compositors.
Wayland is garbage.
dude you're stupid if you think most of the people who still post on this board are doing so in good faith.
most people just want any excuse to argue over any banal stupid shit they feel like, and expecting any sort of consistency or even at the very least an acknowledgement of hypocrisy is useless when everybody is anonymous. they'll just ignore your response, pretend to be somebody else, or duck out of the thread and do something else until the next thread comes along and you're not there to argue against them.
so seriously, you don't need to waste this many words on an argument that doesn't matter.
>sway
>other compositors
nobody besides sway uses wlroots.
It's a copy pasta of non-arguments against X. It appears in every Wayland thread.
way-cooler does
Wayland forces vsync so it can say that it doesn't have screen tearing. There is absolutely no way to turn it off. It is objectively worse than Xorg in every conceivable way and Wayland shills need to skullcap themselves.
> Is this going to be pulseaudio all over again?
No, Pulseaudio worked fine and as an essentially complete thing from the start. I think you must have been using Ubuntu or something, they broke it IIRC. The only other widespread issue as far that I was aware of was some snd_hda_intel bug on some sound cards.
Wayland just drops support for fucking remote desktops and so many more thing unless you use this or that WM.
Wayland is a protocol it does not force vsync.
If you want to switch off vsync write your own implementation that does that.
>Wayland forces vsync so it can say that it doesn't have screen tearing. There is absolutely no way to turn it off.
>It is objectively worse than Xorg in every conceivable way and Wayland shills need to skullcap themselves.
oh hey it's another "say something reasonable and then follow it up with something retarded so you hope people agree with both or you can argue against somebody who you can pretend agrees with neither" episode.
Time to use the un-bloated alternative github.com
>Pulseaudio worked fine
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Fuck off Lennart
>Just implement your own display server!
Fuck off you glow in the dark nigger
>openhub.net
>2,823,313 lines of code
W T F
> TinyX
> - no xkb; it's bloat when console keymaps suffice
> - no xinput
> - no xinerama
> - no gl
Sounds almost as useless as Wayland.
So lets assume that I'm not in the mood to roll my own DE with a tiling... well, what in X was called a window manager, because I don't want to do all that work. As I can see it, my choice on Wayland then boils down to only the two biggest DEs - KDE and GNOME - which are awful and really astoundingly awful, respectively. So when are some of the projects that are complete DEs, but that aren't as shitty as the main DEs, going to support this?
most of it is drivers.
It simply did though, apart from a few bugs that weren't generally widespread or long on the bug tracker.
There were basically no widespread problems other than snd_hda_intel on muh distro while the Ubuntu/Ubuntu-derivative users apparently suffered shitty maintainers.
>*Xorg tears*
Linux is shit
>*Wayland v-syncs*
Linux is shit
mate is finishing their wayland support, it's already merged just need to fix some bugs
there's also other projects in various states like xfway, way-cooler, wayfire
its fine to stay on x, it will be officialy maintained until 2029 at the very least since rhel8
why link to an HN post instead of the link the HN post is about?
>>mate is finishing their wayland support, it's already merged just need to fix some bugs
well Wayland itself has been around for literally a decade and it's still in kinda rough shape, how many years will it be until they can "just fix some bugs"?
Very based user. Keep up the good work.
How do I startx now?
wow, finally, next year, when wayland is actually deshittified and xorg is just a distant memory, at last 2020, the year of the Linux desktop
only if you use xwayland
you know why wayland fails?
because on most compositors the code that updates the mouse cursor has the same priority as any other application. it lags. that doesn't happen with such ease on xorg and windows. you see the mouse stutter on windows? then you have a big problem.
it seems like a stupid thing but it's true, mouse lags kill the ux.
>tfw the bspwm clone hasn't seen much development
hold me goys
it really needs a cwm clone
But can you really tell you need those? If not is bloat.
but it is tho
It's a copy pasta that I keep and post as an argument for a position on this particular issue.
I have about 50-60-ish others that I maintain using git.
>Not using the PrtSc key on your keyboard & pasting the screenshot in an image editor
Even kde plasma with their 0.5 developers has great screenshot support for wayland with spectacle and co. And 5.17 will bring region selection and screenshot annotations.
You don't. For lightweight window managers it's as simple as just typing the name of the WM in the TTY, afaik. So for sway you would type sway. For the big desktops, you would use a display manager as usual.
cute girl(male)
Nouveau has some serious problems that can't be resolved without a hard reboot. These problems have existed for quite awhile and there's no sign that they will ever be fixed. I understand their plight, but in the real world their problem is theirs to solve. Nvidia GPUs still and will continue to have majority marketshare, and Nvidia will never open source their drivers.
It's kind of funny because Intel graphics gives you the best non-gaming experience in Linux by far. Vega still has plenty of issues in Linux so it's not like a Linux user who really cares can just go out and buy a brand new Vega card and expect a flawless experience.
FUCK WAYLAND
xorg is bad
AND
wayland is bad
It's free software. That means the key benefit of it is that you can study and modify it yourself. You have paid nothing for it so you don't get to demand features from others. The free means freedom, not price.
>using a mouse
ishygdig
>breaking combustibility with wine, video games, and everything to replace software that works just fine with software that's buggy trash
I want to go back to windows at this point.
Pulse still ships with flat volumes on, and with braindead low quality resampling. It's a fucking joke.
short circuited before evaluating ``wayland is bad" so we will never know
KDE with wayland doesn't even load on my machine
Xorg doesn't work just fine for many things, it's been buggy this whole time.
Reminder that using proprietary windows apps via Wine and playing proprietary video games will subject you to all the normal problems of proprietary software. Using these programs on GNU/Linux or BSD does not save you from their treachery and lock-in. For example, if there is a change in graphics APIs, as we have seen here, it becomes extremely difficult to port the software and keep it working because the source code isn't available.
Actually ever since windows 8 i have had mouse stutters and also audio that freezes 1 second every 15 minute. No issue on windows 7 and gnu/linux
WTF is that logo?
Look at the high intensity net-wide Wayland shilling. It’s a shillstorm. It makes me incredibly suspicious.
I’ll pass, thanks. Anyway my Thinkpad has NVIDIA and my other Thinkpad has a Cirrus Logic which Wayland will never ever support.
It didn't for me. Depending on the computer, I used either alsa with dmix, or jack, until about 5 years ago. Pulseaudio caused audio delay, glitches, had compatibility issues (especially with wine software), and to this day I occasionally need to restart pulseaudio because it stops working (either get stuttering, runaway cpu usage, memory leak, audio stops working or otherwise, takes a while for such problems to come up but if I run pulseaudio for a few months I'm sure to need to restart it eventually)
Top post atm is the epitome of the wayland story:
> "I can't use wayland because no decent tiling WM works on nvidia + wayland"
response:
> "That's your fault for using nvidia and nvidia's fault for not doing things our way. It's not our job to fix that problem"
What these retards fail to realize is that I will never use their software if it doesn't work. They can come up with a million reasons why it isn't their fault and they are right about everything, but it will never change the fact that even if I wanted to use wayland (which I'd happily do if it fucking worked), I can never use software that doesn't work. They might as well be replacing Linux kernel with the TempleOS kernel. "Wait, you're telling me your better kernel has no network support?" "Yes. networking support is out of scope and it's the internet's job to support us, not the other way around"
Nobody cares. Just like nobody cared when you installed Devuan or when you compiled the entire universe from source. You're not special. You could switch to an iPad and keep delivering the exact same amount of value you do today: zero.
Typical Nvidiacuck.
> nobody cares
which is why wayland is failing
> installed devuan
> compiled universe
I don't know what devuan is, and "compiling the universe from source" is not an accomplishment, you only show your lack of technical knowledge by writing such things
> you're not special
but you are
> switch to an ipad
it would be more productive than wayland, that's for sure.
I'm just mentioning the post on hacker news. Personally my issue is that there is no way for me to correctly configure my four monitors on wayland, and performance in 3d accelerated virtual machines is horrible. I also use xautotool a lot, but i'm sure theres a replacement for wayland by now.
I liked wayland on my laptop that has an intel i7 and high dpi screen, it seemed way better to use, especially with kde. but then it started randomly locking up so I switched to Xorg.
I don't write any of these things because I have some sort of emotional hatred towards wayland. I say them because the arrogance of wayland developers is fucking all of us over. Xorg fucking sucks, but wayland has totally fucked up in it's approach to the problem. They thought they could make a simplified system that works as a base for a new windowing/compositing system. What they ended up doing is forcing a massive duplication of effort across many projects. They'd likely be further along by now if they had started out with larger intentions.
>which is why wayland is failing
no it isn't. I just posted this using a system running wayland specific input handling.
stop buying garbage GPUs from novidya you supreme cuck. no one cares about you.
goo--
>forced vsync
bugger
>Pulseaudio worked fine
no
how is that a bad thing retard? go back to your tearing fest if you don't like it.
wake me up when openbsd and the System 5.4 UNIXes get it
The wayland shill made it himself
compositing = vsync
> the arrogance of wayland developers is fucking all of us over
How dare they give you code for free, what a bunch of arrogant assholes!
>What they ended up doing is forcing a massive duplication of effort across many projects.
There is no duplication of effort. Wayland is not X, things need to be rebuilt to accommodate the change in design. Or you can just use Xwayland.
>They'd likely be further along by now if they had started out with larger intentions.
That doesn't make any sense and you don't seem to understand how wayland was developed. There was one guy who made the core protocol. Then everyone else built extensions and compositors on top of it independently. What do you think he should have done? Decided he would rewrite all of X himself?
do they really not have a hardware mouse cursor? really?
Not even remotely true.
i find latency far more objectionable than tearing
in fact i don't give the slightest fuck if window decorations tear
Feel free to point out where in wayland.xml you can bypass synchronization and just blast frames out as fast as you like. Thanks!
Then stay on X. For many people that isn't acceptable though. Without vsync it's impossible to have anything that relies on accurate frame timings, i.e. video playing, animations, video games, etc.
you act as though it's impossible for a video player to vsync under x*rg
Nowhere does it say vsync anywhere in that file. Go look yourself.
No, I never said that was impossible. I just don't care much for screen tearing, so I don't use X.
Irrelevant; its presence is implied in the protocol and we know the Wayland developers are heavily focused on synchronization and haven't yet devised a way to bypass synchronization (though there's discussion about coming up with some way to bypass it just to accommodate VR, where latency is catastrophic).
>Request a notification when it is a good time to start drawing a new frame, by creating a frame callback. This is useful for throttling redrawing operations, and driving animations.
A surface redraw hint is effectively a vblank signal. You can try drawing to a surface as fast as you like but only the last completed commit of the surface will be displayed, synchronized.
Wrong. You could have your compositor send those frame callbacks whenever, you could have it send them 5000 times a second if you wanted. There is nothing in there that says when they need to be sent. However doing so would be pointless, because drawing as fast as possible wastes cycles and means that the client has no possible way to draw smooth animations because it doesn't know when the next frame is actually going to be displayed.
I don't even know why I waste time talking to you idiots about this. Even in VR vsync is forced because screen tearing causes headaches. Yes increased latency causes headaches too, guess what, they are both bad, but you cannot sacrifice one for the other. The trick there is to just never miss frames.
The way the compositor presents your content is entirely up to its own discretion.
The Wayland protocol says absolutely nothing about it
If the app has full control like it is the case with DRI3 and is able to know the vsync timing it can do the lowest possible latency itself without using too much CPU cycles draining the battery.
With Wayland no such thing is possible because the app has only control of its own buffer and has no information about the current scanline position.
False, see the wp_presentation protocol.
It is true that with any compositing at all, there will still be some latency added. This is unavoidable as long as you want to be able to have multiple windowed programs running on the same computer.
Wayland sucks penises
> This is unavoidable as long as you want to be able to have multiple windowed programs running on the same computer.
No this is clearly wrong. It works on X11. Many people deliberately turn off composition and waive all that great effects just to reduce latency. Because then every app can decide itself if it wants vsync or not and has direct access to the framebuffer.
Presentation mode would solve nothing. I want to use a low latency editor alongside a low latency terminal.
Wayland introduces an opaque additional layer that apps have to talk to to put pixels on screen. The protocol is inherently flawed.
Turning off compositing only improves speed in X because the way X compositors are implemented is a bad hack that requires multiple 3 way trips between the client, server and compositor.
Every app in X also does not have direct access to the framebuffer, that is a blatant lie. The server still has to do the work to put your pixels on screen and there still is an extra layer that apps have to talk to. A game for example will always have to render its output to a separate buffer, there is no way around this.
If you really want a minimal latency terminal, I suggest you use vim in a VT and stop using a display server altogether. I still do that sometimes when I really need to get work done.
Xterm is able to have the same latency as the VT because it uses X11 drawing primitives.
So does every other native X app. I measured it myself. The difference is less than a ms.
Again, not possible with Wayland.
Instead of putting all that effort into a new Display Server it would make much more sense to port all applications to native X11 drawing primitives.
That is not specifically why xterm has low latency. It also has low latency because it is a somewhat complicated program that pulls every trick in the book to reduce the amount of data it needed to send over the wire. Remember that it was primarily written to run on dumb terminals with 1-bit graphics in the 80s. There is no reason a Wayland compositor couldn't employ these tricks, but they don't because it's not currently 1985.
>Instead of putting all that effort into a new Display Server it would make much more sense to port all applications to native X11 drawing primitives.
You should get started doing that then, I'll wait here for you when you're done.
I looked at the code of Athena widgets which are able to pull off this kind of latency. The don't really look super "optimized" to me.
You are lying again.
> You should get started doing that then, I'll wait here for you when you're done.
"If want that feature write your own software". Standard response of Wayland apologists.
The other reason things like that are fast is because they use very basic rendering and only update very small portions of the screen. Again there is no reason this couldn't be done in wayland, it uses the same damage mechanism as X.
Begging people here to write software for you is not likely to succeed, so yes, you should probably get started writing those features yourself if you really want them that bad.
Jesus Christ, when I see posts like these, I have to check to make sure I haven't gone back in time to 1990.
Some things were better in the 90s. And by "some things" I mean especially latency.
As soon as the first fully functional browser is able to draw to /dev/fb0 ricers will leave both X11 and Wayland in droves.
In the end Wayland will have no developers except some paid IBM and Gnome trannies. Without ricers the Linux desktop is even more dead than it already is.