Why does every other job require you know .NET?

Enterprise environments like to stick to a single vendor for software as much as possible because it simplifies licensing.
Now you have:
- Oracle shops (Java on the JVM with Oracle databases and maybe some Spring libraries) and
- Microsoft shops (C# on the .NET Framework with SQL Server databases)

Try going to a meeting with a bunch of suits and say "I want to build this with Python and Django and Mongo" and they'll give you a funny look.
Say "Oracle and Java" and they'll greenlight the project.

What's it like to get to know Java, C# and .NET when you only know Python and the MERN stack? Harder?

Can you put up rinky dink projects in Java and .NET and get hired? I'm not having luck getting hired with little sites I made with MERN.

Java and C# are nearly identical - even many of the class and method names.

If you're familiar with MVC, dependency injection, annotations, and ORMs, then Spring isn't that bad.
ASP.NET MVC is pretty similar to Spring MVC so you can move back and forth between these pretty easily.

>Can you put up rinky dink projects in Java and .NET and get hired?
Probably not. Big companies generally have large HR departments that weed out incoming resumes before developers or managers see them, so no degree means basically no chance.

>no degree means basically no chance.

I'm starting to panic about all the time I spent learning web development. I figured the field was in demand and if you proved you could deliver the goods you'd get hired.
What do? Keep making projects with the MERN stack and freelance?

>and they'll give you a funny look
They'll laugh you out of the room and they won't stop laughing until they've fired you and replaced you with some kid straight out of uni.

>I figured the field was in demand
It is in-demand - but you and 200,000 other people heard it was in-demand and jumped in.
Web development is over-saturated. Significantly. Supply is significantly outpacing demand.

I'm not trying to put you down or anything, but that's the truth.
We've had 10 years of this "everybody can code" meme and companies in California promising 6-figure salaries to anyone that can make a web app.
It's just getting worse because of these 12-week "bootcamps" that pump out MERN stack developers.

Just keep learning web dev. Try going to conferences and career fairs for networking. Maybe do a bit of freelancing to build up experience. You'll get there user

This. Code monkeying in general is completely overcrowded and unless you like competing with 200 other people for literally one job I don't see how that is anything worth any ones time.

Absolutely, yes.

Only do this if you're banking on Kotlin actually replacing Java or you know you can get a Kotlin job. The Java language is terribly antiquated. You can get jobs easily with it, but man are they torturous.

C# was always okay since like 2003, but sometime around 2006 it became better than Java, and the gap has just grown and grown. The JVM was still objectively superior compared to the dotnet runtime, but that changed again in 2016. Now C#/core is a titan of quality. It's kinda incredible, but not surprising if you consider MS has also made VS Code and Typescript. Their dev platforms and tools are just fantastic in recent years. Based Nadella.

Literally all your work will look rinky dink compared to even a small company's internal LOB software. Your Python might as well be VB6 for all anyone cares. Actually, VB skills are somewhat valuable considering Excel has an interpreter for it.

Oh boy, you bought into memes. Web dev is a dumpster fire. It's easy to get people with no knowledge of how to engineer anything to be able to make things with copy and pasting some html/css/js/python. The field is full of people like that, and they will play political games to stay employed while you get fired for not being a team player. There is no meritocracy in web dev. The whole fucking thing is going to collapse in Web Bubble 2.0 eventually.

>Oh boy, you bought into memes.

I actually figured it would be a good way to break into the industry since I don't have a PhD to do Data Science. You'll probably tell me that's a meme too. The term web development makes me think of a Reddit user. I want to be there when ML does whatever it's gonna do in the next 5-10 years.
I mean, learning the MERN Stack and Redux didn't take me too long. It doesn't hurt to have learned it.

I'm not sure what to do. I have no school or paid experience but I know I am meant to sit at a desk and make code do things.

>low paid webshit

Web dev is fucking horrendous but it absolutely pays great, atleast on my end

>pays great, atleast on my end

Did you go to college for computers for $200k?
How'd you get in?
How can I get in?
I'm thinking of calling up small businesses with static pages from 2004 and redoing them in the MERN Stack for cheap. It beats just whacking off and bussing tables and NOT doing Web Development.

go to a community college and be a plumber or something.
You'll make more money.

>around 2006 it became better than Java
i told some java programmers that c# was more advance than java around 2009 (after .net 3.5 and c# 3 and linq).
they laughed at me and said c# copied java.

>Data Science
user... Yes, that's 90% a meme as well. It was a real field, but it's been overrun by idiots trying to cash in on the stupid high salary.
>ML
Also a meme, and going nowhere in 5-10 years. Are you okay?
>no school or paid experience
You will have an extremely hard time getting your foot in the door.
>I am meant to sit at a desk and make code do things.
That's not what a software developer does, it's what a code monkey does. Software developers are engineers who happen to be able to make software. Without a base understanding of engineering, you'll be doing glorified data entry. Go to school.

Linq was an absolute game changer and Java never recovered. Streams are a total joke. Reified generics or bust.
Javafag cope is bizarre considering they could pick up C# in like a few weeks with a very easy learning curve. That's what I did some seven years ago.

a few years ago when java got lambda expression
BEHOLD! JAVA HAS LAMBDA EXPRESSION! IT'S BEAUTIFUL!
a few years later when java got var
LO AND BEHOLD! JAVA HAS VAR! IT'S SO SIMPLE!
i told them about lambda and var in 2009 and they told me that the beauty of java was there's only a single way to do anything. java had no need of lambda and var. they denied these statements now.

Cope is a hell of a drug m8.

>Without a base understanding of engineering, you'll be doing glorified data entry.

What did you mean by this?
I'm probably more creative than most. Video editing, playing music, painting, drawing, drafting, making sculptures.

I find consumer apps to be generally revolting. Nothing wrong with eBay, Uber, and AirBnB and narcissist platforms per se but they are decay.
I feel like after GPUs get a million times faster again technology might become more interesting, but you were saying go to school to be an engineer to do what broadly?

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>> C# more advanced
Only because they cant get there shit right so thry canned net for core. Its easier setters and getters are practically done for you and var is cool if you want to be javascript but useless in c#. Java arraylist destorys c# having yo do lists because fixed array size. Java collections is better

>no degree means basically no chance

What if you get some lies about going to college memorized and just lie about having a Bachelor's in CS?
Are they really going to ask for proof or check if it's just web development?
I feel like they're just trying to filter out flakey retards with college.

I guess you could.
>put degree on your resume from some mediocre state school
>if HR asks you to sign a waiver so they can pull your transcript just duck out saying you've accepted an offer somewhere else
>repeat as necessary
There was a thread on Jow Forums where someone claimed to do basically this.

Being creative and building lasting solutions to general problems are nearly orthogonal. Creativity in an engineer is valuable, and necessary, but is not the core skill or practice.
Computer engineering is a good field of study. You will learn how to pick apart problems, and solve them in a general way that others can understand and maintain. It sounds like a trivial skill.
It's not. It's extremely hard, to the point that most developers can't do it. These developers get stuffed into roles where they're told exactly what to do all the time. Your job becomes data entry and you won't be trusted to go off the rails on your own. That's what a code monkey is. It doesn't seem fun.
>I feel like after GPUs get a million times faster again technology might become more interesting
Technology is very interesting right now. If you wait for the next best thing, you just might wait forever. The basic skills of engineering do not rot away, and are invaluable no matter what you choose to do down the road. I'd recommend learning them if your end goal is anything in technology.

Are you from India?

I'm not him, but I want to vent.
I went to school for 5 years working on a degree in electrical/computer engineering and now I can't find work because I'm uncreative and generally incompetent.

Found the c# dev. Microshit and c# are trash.
Not even a java dev but saying ms garb is comparable to the JVM is ridiculous

>lasting solutions

Is that even a thing anymore with planned obsolescence being the norm?

C# is a simple to use, easy to build with language, made far more powerful by the inclusion of .NET Framework.
It's not as efficient as C++ and I'd stick with that for crossplat but as for quick development in MS environments it works really well.
Yes, you should learn it, it's essentially industry standard for anyone developing primarily for MS based systems.

Literally this

seen a company buy oracle db, where an textfile have sufficed - welcome. to the real world.

Not the OP but I got a question if you dont mind. I recently got my first IT-job which requires me to write scripts and modules with GUI in Powershell for our servicedesk.
I am a bit familiar with .Net Classes and WinForms already and now I am wondering if C# would be the ideal next language to learn for me as it shares some similarities with Powershell. Thanks

>I am a bit familiar with .Net Classes and WinForms already and now I am wondering if C# would be the ideal next language to learn for me as it shares some similarities with Powershell. Thanks
Sure, C# is pretty easy to pick up if you're using something like visual studio, start with windows form apps and maybe a few tutorials on how to write for them.

That is exactly what I will be doing. Downloading Visual Studio now , thanks user

This. I recently tsrted looking into c# and even a quick look into the language features, I liked it a lot better than java.

don't forget to download LINQPad.
it's lightweight and useful when you want to just write short scripts.
full code in good choice

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no problem, C# is great for windows stuff
more importantly, it's highly employable

Oh no, a company wanted data security and persistence. How terrible.

>Should I learn .NET?
If you want to deal with the winapi, then yes
It's basically Java with Windows specific functionality

Its the little in depth things that the java designers didnt allow java devs to do because they knew they are brainlets that make C# so much better. Like for example operator overloading or actually using unsafe code.

Lol yeah, let's just keep our data in a fucking text file where our read operations are O(n) and we keep our data completely unstructured.
Want to sort it for some values?
Have fun at your shitty IT job at your backwoods dirt farm managing their customer DB, you idiot

he doesn't know .net core

>operator overloading
in my 10 years of using c#, not once i ever use that. i used unsafe code though, very rarely.

Yes. C# + .NET Core will set you free. It will set us all free.

Both you niggas chill out. We can directly interop with WinApi through .NET Core these days while incurring zero performance penalty thanks to some especially skilled pajeets:
>github.com/prasannavl/WinApi

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Being able to actually write your own indexer is a gift compared to having to use different flavors of put/get like in java

Is this the birth of sucklessDB?
"Hey user can u run a query on our data?"
"Sure lemme just simulate a relational database with a series of POSIX regexes. Don't worry guys I have it all backed up wif a cron job that runs a shell script :3"

How do I learn this dotnet core thing? Is the official documentation sufficient enough?

>Is the official documentation sufficient enough?

Probably.
The constant RTFD reminders in Jow Forums are helpful.

If you had no web development experience is it possible to build a few projects in C# and .NET and get hired?
I asked earlier in the thread and someone said 'no way'.
There's really no strategy to land a job with no school or experience short of conning your way in with fake employment/ school history?

I use C for projects in my job, with python and ruby to automate testing and R to analyze performance. Seeth harder webfags.

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Getting a job in IT (including programming) without a degree has been a shit show for decades. There are outliers, but the majority of companies hiring developers without degrees are sketchy fly by night operations and they're only doing it because they're cheap as fuck.

Large companies have policies concerning hiring. If you're incredibly lucky you'll find a place that'll consider several years of professional relevant experience to be the equivalent of a bachelor's degree. I've seen maniacs post ads like, "5 years with a bachelor's, 3 years with a master's, anyone with a Doctorate, or with equivalent experience. In theory you'd have a chance if you had somewhere north of five years of experience, but even then it's an uphill battle.

googling sucklessDB returns only one result

i posted that i was sql monkey in /dpt/ a few days ago.
i got asked why i need sql when i can store data in text.
they had no idea that i had lots of tables with hundred of million rows in it.
and i need to join these tables.

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You misread the job ad.

Its actually ".NEET"

Yayyy. Everyone on /b qualifies for the job

He means that if you don't get good you'll end up converting business rules into business logic, which is as interesting as data entry if you're skilled enough.

The pace that computer hardware and software advance requires consistent effort to maintain one's edge and represents a real challenge at the outset of ones career. Maybe I'm just a brainlet, but I have to spend a lot of time outside of my job developing skills. I'd fall very far behind if I relied on my job duties to maintain my skills. I'm convinced many of my colleagues spend considerable work time experimenting with new technologies purely to hone their skills. There are some silver linings. A lot of people can't or won't do this, which gives me hope of job security in the future when everyone decides to become a developer. The constant challenge also means it'll never be boring.

>f you're incredibly lucky you'll find a place that'll consider several years of professional relevant experience to be the equivalent of a bachelor's degree.

Jeez. Even after years of professional experience they can't look at your work and see you're dependable and above average?
>Are we talking just software development? I feel like strictly Web Development would be all provable with experience.

I know 'Data Science' is very strict about having school, but I would think even they would want to bring people in with provably good personal projects.

I don't really understand why outside of school being a test for following orders and convention. What can't I learn about computer science outside of college?

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>No college degree, no honey

But if you were Colored or a woman with only a high school diploma you'd get a job with an above average Github?

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They want to know you can commit to school for 4 years and that you're not a drug addict. Go to school or get REALLY good at answering leetcode questions.

>Jeez. Even after years of professional experience they can't look at your work and see you're dependable and above average?

It's not worth their time. Even when requiring a college degree interviews are clogged with people that don't really know anything. They're not going to bother bringing you in unless they're not getting qualified candidates or they're looking for someone that'll accept far less compensation.

>even they would want to bring people in with provably good personal projects.
It's the same way in most fields. A self taught electrician or civil engineer can't even be hired legally. There are a lot of reasons for it, but it should be sufficient to know that you're competing with people that have degrees and they're only going to hire you if they're either cheap or desperate. What it really boils down to is the expense of bringing someone on. They don't want to make that investment unless they're confident it's going to work out. Keep in mind, you're competing with every other self taught guy that thinks pasting together a few code snippets he copied out of tutorials makes him a software engineer. You really think they're going to pay one of their lead developers $50 an hour to sift through dozens of portfolios from unqualified candidates?

>What can't I learn about computer science outside of college?
I can tell you think you're the greatest person that ever lived and deserve a $120,000 salary as a developer. I don't mind bursting your bubble hear. Chances are you aren't half as good as you think you are. Probably not even close. I could be wrong. Maybe you're a literal genius that knows everything there is to know about programming, but I seriously doubt it. There were plenty of kids in school with me that spent four years full time studying computer science going to class all day and doing assignments. A lot of them finished barely having the ability to do basic programming tasks and you've got less than them.

No, West Europe.

Because M$ is basically a trillion dollar monopoly that has its hands on basically everyone's ballsack and .NET works well with that ecosystem.

>no degree means basically no chance

Just fucking lie, you think they call up the school to verify you graduated?

lemme guess
netherland

Just to expand on this, your preliminary filter is done by some HR bitch who has no clue about anything IT related, she's looking for stupid markers on the resume "did he graduate, does he have experience"

And here is the best part, your job isnt important enough to warrant such a large background check outside of criminal.

You aren't going to be handling company funds or representing them globally, no one cares about you desk jockey, so fucking lie.

>I can tell you think you're the greatest person that ever lived and deserve a $120,000 salary as a developer.

No. I just know I'm suited for it. I'm logical and I need new challenging things to work on or I get depressed.
I feel I would get better if I worked with a group and/ or boss that was relying on me.

It gets dispiriting when I can't ask someone a question about a snag and when I'm just making something nobody really needs just to educate myself. It's like you can only learn so much and retain so much learning a language alone.

Yup

why do C fanboys malloc everything & think void* is equivalent to parametric polymorphism. They also hate error checking, so they return null and cry into stdout that something is wrong. fucking disgusting.

The github is optional for them. Check your privilege.

WTF is this .NEET shit? Are you a fucking incel?

>no one cares about you desk jockey, so fucking lie.

What would you have ready to respond with about your imaginary time at school in interviews?
I know above high school math. I guess I should get an algorithms/ data structures book and watch CS lectures just to cover my bases.

>thinking every computer has stdout
>using up stack space for variable sized data
Where did you hear that C people don't error check? They would never make it programming microcontrollers. Also if you don't like void* you've never had to parse a raw ethernet packet have you?

You can find all of that without being employed as a programmer. Just start contributing to an open source project.

.NET Core is open source/cross platform and werks fine. Combine it with Avalon UI and you have a perfectly OO functional language that can run NATIVELY anywhere.

You know their are services to verify degrees right? It's pretty common these days. It's not free, but it's cheap compared to onboarding some liar that has 1% of the experience listed on their resume. Fuck, it's cheaper than wasting time bringing them in for a real interview. Some employers are so debased they'll demand you pay your school to have an official transcript sent.

Just lie about your degree. How fucking stupid can you be? You can easily lie about work experience and references, but they'll catch you lying about your degree.

>Just start contributing to an open source project.

I suppose a good way to get experience and show work on a resume and possibly network.
How impersonal is the process? I've never done it. Is it common to get in a Google Hangout and collaborate in your experience, or is it an isolation endurance challenge like what I do regularly?

>Job I want requires thing
>should I learn thing
Big think

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it's popular, modern, compatible with everything, billion dollar companies use it, and it just works instead of you autistically having to reinvent the wheel every 15 seconds

nope don't learn it, even though it would give you an edge up in "50%" of jobs. do what Jow Forums says and stay an unemployable irc circlejerklet fat fuck. fight the good fight

.NET / C# is fucking great, if you can find a job that uses .NET/C#.

> JVM/Java
Years ago it was a very competitive, good language. Servers, enterprise, Android used it. Since Oracle took over the quality really went down the sink. Google now tries to move over to Kotlin, and companies just keep abandoning it.

IMO C# (.NET) // Python // C/C++ are the relevant languages in 2019.
All of them has pros and cons ofc.

C#:
> only Windows/Mac support
> Mono is shit, worse than it was years ago (and it sucked always)

Python:
> GUI is hit or miss, wxGTK is quite cumbersome, PyQT fucks you license wise
Other than that, it's fucking great.

C / C++:
> GUI is the same, problematic. Qt is super pricey, you can use GTK however, if you can live with it. There is also various Win APIs, but good luck fucking around with that.

I'd recommend it over Java, in any event.

>Google Hangout

I'd avoid mentioning any of the FANG companies or their products.

IRC maybe discord if they're not too paranoid.

The level of community you get out of it is going to depend on the project and your level of involvement. If you're putting in work and asking technical questions people are going to assist.

It's also great for a resume. It shows commitment to a real project, that you can use version control, demonstrates your technical skills, and proves that you can work as a team. It's not as good as work experience, but it's probably the best thing to shove into your portfolio.

c# still has horrible problems:

1. The dll loading is a mess, dlls are loaded completely dynamically and get cached in the GAC, which sometimes can use old versions of DLLs on build servers, which means bad solutions don't get caught up
2. MSBuild is a complicated nightmare and the default visual studio build scales O(n^2) with no projects, which delays the problem till you have a large codebase, at which point no one understands the solution file anymore
3. Exceptions are really annoying. Throwing an exception in a low down function doesn't break the build, yet can break all the calling code and even crash the program
4. The same for nulls (although they are trying to fix this)
5. Equality is an absolute nightmare in C#, you need to define Equals, IEquatable Equals, !=. == in order to properly define equality for a type, and take into account nulls. Also some people don't know about IEquatable, which has some weird hack for not boxing valuetypes in dictionarys using the default equality comparer.
6. Threadstatics completely break when used with the new task stuff, since they're thread agile. Core .NET library components use them, so easy to get shafted
7. structs have some seriously weird behaviour if they're not immutable, e.g. calling a mutating method on one in an array mutates the original, whilst in a list it just copies it.

A lot of those are pretty close to niggles and most of the rest are true of most languages.

Exception-based workflow and interfaced equality are conspicuous design choices shared by all languages that are even remotely Java-like and if you don't have proper exception catching it's your own fault (stop not awaiting your asyncs; use proper message queues, or if you insist on being a cave man with threads, then wrap them correctly). And sure it would be nice to have a Kotlin-esque data class that implements default equality so you could use your POCO data contracts as keys without any extra efforts, but named tuples will serve as keying well enough for 95% of use cases.

Build complexity is a valid complaint, but you shouldn't be making monolythic codebases anymore any way. Ditto dynamic dll loading and modern deployment methods making the problem fairly irrelevant.

Yes. I have fairly complex systems, with the last commit being in 2014, running completely autonomously right now. Businesses which have been doing roughly the same thing for a few decades just need shit that works well, not the latest memes.

c# has problems I am speaking as a professional blogger-loser:

1. It has support for software that other people wrote, so that things work. Everyone should go through me and wait
2. Exceptions work, and the program keeps working, so people can keep doing their jobs, instead of blowing up so they have to call me
3. I assume you won't read this far just want to pad the list
4. It works, this means I have to talk to people instead of jacking off doing "computer science"

>> only Windows/Mac support
First class Linux support since dotnet core was released in 2016. No native gui, but you can bolt on whatever you want.

These are a bunch of non-issues.
>1
Use core, it doesn't even have the GAC, which is a hacky mess I always avoided anyway. You can now unload assemblies in core since coreclr pull 18476.
>2
How many projects do you have in a solution to run into this? I couldn't find anything to support what you're saying in a few minutes of searching, and I've never had an issue with having even a couple dozen projects in a solution. These days, I feel like having more than a few projects in any solution is a smell. You should be generating nuget packages and consuming them instead of just linking everything in a single solution.
>3
This has been a holy war for decades. What you must keep in mind is that your program can ALWAYS break due to external things at any time. You should be modeling your software as nested state machines, where every state handles error conditions. Exceptions should NEVER bubble up more than a layer or two, and you can hook a global handler on AppDomain.CurrentDomain.UnhandledException and Application.ThreadException to capture uncaught exceptions and do logging or display a crash screen or whatever. The end result is the same with and without exceptions: You didn't handle an error state, now your program isn't working right.
>4
I've never had many issues with nulls, but I'm glad we're getting nullable.
>5
You only need to override Equals, and GetHashCode if you're planning on using your type in a dictionary/hashset. IEquatable is something you implement for performance, if really needed. You should not usually overload == except for immutable types, and the behavior should be the same as Equals.
>6
Threadstatics were always smelly to me. You should avoid them.
>7
C# structs are not like other structs. They have rules. One is they should always be immutable.

>since dotnet core
yea but back then, when Mono was on it's own, it was a full blown .NET with GUI and shit, I 'member...

nah, C# is good my nigga.
maybe it's not the language for you, but it's a good language.

So, as someone who doesn't want to get into webdev and recently started his Computer engineering Career (or I guess that's the equivalent, I don't know how to translate the name), which fields of development are less of a clusterfuck/not saturated? Embedded? Mobile? Machine learning? Gaymes?

That's historical pain thought. 2016 was three years ago, it's time to move on. Mono is only relevant for Blazor now, and it will eventually be replaced there as well.

Thoughts on Blazor (.Net Core WebAssembly)?

looks cool, but it's still new
just wait and see
i doubt webdev can live without js

How does Oracle make money? New acquisitions and lock in of their user base?