DJT is a Japanese language 勉強スレ for anyone interested in the language, anime, manga, visual novels, light novels and Japanese video games.
Japanese speakers learning English are welcome, too.
READ THE GUIDE linked below before asking how to learn Japanese:
itazuraneko.neocities.org
djtguide.neocities.org
Check the Cornucopia of Resources before asking where to download X or Y:
itazuraneko.neocities.org
djtguide.neocities.org
Archive of older threads: desuarchive.org
Previous Thread:
Other urls found in this thread:
youtube.com
youtube.com
youtube.com
kobun.weblio.jp
kobun.weblio.jp
kobun.weblio.jp
en.wiktionary.org
en.wiktionary.org
kobun.weblio.jp
dictionary.goo.ne.jp
youtube.com
dic.nicovideo.jp
dic.pixiv.net
twitter.com
乙
ユニークモンスター
I wanted to post this before the last thread died so I wouldn't have to shit up the beginning of a new thread with it, but I failed.
It's complicated and there's probably more qualified people to explain it than me.
But neither the 促音 sound っ nor the 撥音 sound ん originally existed in Japanese until Chinese loanwords started being adopted. ん is another story, but っ comes from the way that the character つ was used to represent the final -t in Chinese words as the 音読み of kanji were being recorded.
For example, 仏 is ぶつ or ふつ, borrowed from reconstructed Middle Chinese /bɨut̚/. The character ふ would have represented "pu" at the time, but they had to improvise with a つ for "tu" to show the final -t sound because a way of representing lone consonants in terms of native Japanese sounds did not exist at the time.. The final き, く, ち, ふ, etc. in the 音読み of other kanji were also used in the same way to show a final -k, -t, or -p.
One common sound change that happened in the Chinese words early on was the final -t represented by ち or つ getting swallowed up into the next consonant and becoming っ in compounds like 仏教 (ぶつきょう -> ぶっきょう). The っ still went on being written つ, as there was no system for writing that sound in kana yet, but the pronunciation had already changed.
The sound would then start appearing in native words too, such as the te-forms of certain u-verbs like 取る (とりて -> とって), but without any way to show that sound in writing it would either get left as り or just not be represented at all (so that とって would be written とて). Then, towards the end of the Heian period leading into the first shogunate, the つ already used to write the っ sound in words like 説教 or 決算 started being used in all cases where it appeared, even if the original sound wasn't つ. And then this would gradually solidify and eventually morph into the system of writing the つ small we see today.
You are given the opportunity to remove one of the following from the Japanese language
>Kanji
>Stupid katakana onomatopoeia words
Which do you choose?
neither of these are bad
None. If you can't love the language the way it is why even bother.
both
you don't deserve those digits
Thanks!
>一般に、関東方言では、連母音が長音化します。
Did you mean 関西弁?
英単語
become a 書道 master
come on a lot of that just has to be having that cool fuckin pen
It feels like there is a lack of equivalents for a lot of English websites in Japanese. Places like urbandictionary, fandom, and tvtropes for example. Am I wrong? Is the format just unpopular?
you should abandon kanji 1st.
if u keep reading manga, u will be understand it
knock knock ...
anybody here?
Neither. I love them both.
So this verb - > 通る
is intransitive right?
So why does it take a を particle in this core2k6k sentence?
>毎日、この道を通ります。
because "intransitive" is nonsense gaijin grammar
no it's not faggot.
I found it anyways it was
>places can also be the direct object of motion verbs such as 「歩く」 and 「走る」.
を also marks the origin or path of motion for intransitive movement verbs.
席を立つ To get up from your seat. を marks the origin of 立つ.
浜辺を走る To run along the coast. を marks the path of motion of 走る.
反省
「反省」という概念を説召してくれませんか
I can't decide if I like or hate how Kanji that look similar/have the same components often share readings.
On one hand, I'm sure it makes educated guesses/remembering easier on natives, but on the other hand it's just fucking confusing/annoying sometimes.
like 校 and 交 both being こう. In that case the visual difference is big enough that it's just convenient but I think you get what I mean.
自分のしてきた言動をかえりみて、その可否を改めて考えること。自分のよくなかった点を認めて、改めようと考えること。
Looking back at one's own actions, and reflecting on whether they were right or wrong. Recognizing one's own faults, and deciding to strive to fix them.
>通る: intransitive
>毎日、この道を通ります
really?
I feel like 通る is transitive (in this case?), because 通る has an object "この道を".
the verb 通る might be "walk/go/drive through"
so the sentence is like:
I go through this path/road/way every day
I 通る this road every day
it's not confusing if you do rtk. you're learning how to read kanji the reverse of how they were created (radical + pronunciation of ancient chinese word)
But 通る isn't something you do to the road, it's something you do to yourself. The transitive version is 通す.
It's the same with 渡る. 道を渡る to cross the road. "Cross" isn't an action you do to the road, it's a movement you cause yourself to go through.
家を出る to leave the house. "Leave" is a motion, not a thing you do to the house.
>like 校 and 交 both being こう
if i put this below without being afraid of being misunderstood by japanese learners,
the sound "コウ" in 交 and 校, are not "japanese".
Kanjis have their own meaning respectively. They are just a loan method to express japanese language with the kanji characters. The 音読み is how ancient chinese pronounced it and sounded to ancient Japanese ears.
Whilist 訓読み of kanjis are japanese meanings.
So there are shit loads of kanjis that sounds exactly the same. also that probably is the same as kanjis of Chinese language, because there are those kanjis that share the same something; I don't know how to say it.
like your example:
交 in 校 sounds コウ in japanese.
>It's the same with 渡る. 道を渡る to cross the road. "Cross" isn't an action you do to the road
>家を出る to leave the house. "Leave" is a motion, not a thing you do to the house.
So you say the "cross" in "cross the road" and the "leave" in "leave the house" are intransitive?
No, they're transitive in English, but in Japanese words like 渡る and 出る are treated as intransitive.
what i mean is no one who speaks any language gives any shit about things like "intransitive" verbs. you make things harder by trying to memorize things like this without increasing your skill in meaningful ways. you may impress a nerd linguist.
>knowing how to use a verb that typically doesn't take a を particle and why it's allowed in some scenarios is just nerd linguist shit
ok idiot.
>渡る and 出る
before I said something, I like to make this clear; I am not good at Japanese grammer or something relating to it at all.
I think 渡る in 河を渡る or 出る in 家を出る are also transitive.
You said "to cross the road" as "道を渡る" and the "cross" is transitive although the "渡る" is intransitive.
So I guess something that I don't know must be there you think so.
So let's pick up another example.
>浜辺を走る To run along the coast. を marks the path of motion of 走る
I think 浜を走る is not equivalent to "run ALONG the coast".
again I am not good at english. so I am not sure, but when you 浜を走る, you don't have to go "along" the coast.
yes faggot. this thought doesn't go through anyone's head except gaijins trying to speak fake japanese.
>lol just be a native!
what's the difference learning a second language
the only difference is people think grammar matters when learning a second language
come on guys lol
don't heat up on how to shit in language
there is no correct answer on how to use language.
that applies to every language.
what is important is whether you can communicate with it or not, right.
>"don't heat up on how to shit in language"
what?
i meant "calm down"
They are 自動詞 intransitive. Whether a verb is transitive or intransitive is listed in most Japanese-English dictionaries, but I don't know how to see transitivity in the normal Japanese-Japanese dictionaries I use, so I will have to rely on this 古文 dictionary instead because it shows 自動/他動 for all verbs:
kobun.weblio.jp
kobun.weblio.jp
kobun.weblio.jp
All of them are 自動詞, although 出づ does also have a transitive version that means 出す.
For some verbs that have a transitive-intransitive pair, Wiktionary lists their partner and shows the voices of the two verbs to be "active" and "mediopassive."
渡る and 出る are both mediopassive and intransitive, according to Wiktionary:
en.wiktionary.org
en.wiktionary.org
They are paired with 渡す and 出す, which are both active and transitive.
I don't know much about complicated linguistic concepts like "mediopassive voice," but I'm 100% sure these verbs are grammatically intransitive in Japanese.
Even though they still feel like they are transitive.
Also intransitive: 入る, 上がる, 離れる, くぐる
>what?
come on that obviously means "don't get heated". is english your first language?
yes
I would/might explain the examples one by one
>kobun.weblio.jp
this page explains the usage of 通る.
but there is no usage as transitive. I mean no 通る with objects is there.
So 通る could have be only used as an intransitive verb back then unlike how it is used currently.
この間
先日
>kobun.weblio.jp
this shows how to use 渡る in old japanese.
there is one example that 渡る is used as transitive; I believe.
「日を消(せう)し、月をわたりて一生を送る、もっとも愚かなり」
I bet the dictionary must be not correct on how to label verbs.
I actually don't use the "weblio" when I look up english words, because it sometimes shows something different from other english online dictionaries.
every one that includes any authority could mistake. of course I could also be wrong on this "transitive" things.
It just so happens not to have an example with を, but 渡る has one even though it says 自動詞 right on the page:
kobun.weblio.jp
>日を消し、月をわたりて一生を送る
The use of を to mark the 対象 is separate from its use to mark the 起点/出発点 or the 経由点 is separate in both classical Japanese:
kobun.weblio.jp
>2 〔動作の起点・経由点〕…を。…から。
and modern Japanese:
dictionary.goo.ne.jp
>2 移動の意を表す動詞に応じて、動作の出発点・分離点を示す。…から。
>3 移動の意を表す動詞に応じて、動作の経由する場所を示す。…を通って。
And in this usage of を, the transitivity of the verb doesn't matter:
>「東京を離れる」
>「山道を行く」
Both are intransitive verbs.
I don't know why more Japanese dictionaries don't label whether verbs are 自動詞 or 他動詞, but I imagine it's probably for the same reason as what the other poster was talking about: "intransitive" vs. "transitive" as a strict black-and-white distinction isn't really important in Japanese. In cases like 廊下を走る or 席を立つ, the whole concept of "transitivity" becomes vague.
I'm sorry if I seem argumentative. I don't mean to be. I'm just 自閉症.
I really really love Chino chan
i hate chino
I want to anally violate Chino-chan ( #｀Д´)
肛門を犯す
>I'm sorry if I seem argumentative. I don't mean to be. I'm just 自閉症.
don't worry im also the autists who is willingly obsessed with tiny differences.
>I don't know why more Japanese dictionaries don't label whether verbs are 自動詞 or 他動詞
because the intransitive and the transitive are concepts made by western language?
>the other poster was talking about: "intransitive" vs. "transitive" as a strict black-and-white distinction isn't really important in Japanese
I guess they must be not important not only in Japanese but also in every other languages.
Because grammer is just a how to parse the language from a specific perspective.
when you see a scenery from your English basis, they must be different from other language's.
shut your god damm whore mouth, green tea bitch
てめえ。。。。ゆるさん
finally you post some some refinement
anyway what is chino?
I sometimes encounter it in Jow Forums.
it probably is some character of anime.
but also it means "chinese" in spanish.
and the flag who likes to say "chino chan" seems related to Chinese sphere.
So maybe chino chan is popular in Chinese people?
このchino
What's more common, ... 。。。 or ・・・
存在してすみません
存在して皆様にご迷惑をおかけしてしまいまして申し訳ございません
dic.pixiv.net
ahh i see. I haven't seen the anime so far.
Is it worth to watch it?
2bh, you are way better at Japanese language than me. especially at grammer things. Although there are some differences of opinions on how to see it, but you are still better at me, 2bqh.
oh shit
>at me
*than me
>Is it worth to watch it?
no
It's worth it if you like cute girls doing cute stuff
I am completely straight, but I don't see girls are cuter or better looking over boys are on average. I realized it after I got some woke and started seeing them without any sexual desire.
Then I fairly judged which is better looking. And the rest should be history. :)
>what is important is whether you can communicate with it or not, right.
false, important is whether I can consume muh jap media or not
>I am completely straight
>I am completely straight, but I don't see girls are cuter or better looking over boys are on average.
ちょっと内省した方がいいんじゃない?
>important is whether I can consume muh jap media or not
((it should be jav, don't think. just feel))
Oh My! May God have mercy upon these not woken people. They can't judge beauty from a fair perspective without sexual desire.
>Is it worth to watch it?
まいかい神回
When you see girls without sexual emotion, you will know what I mean.
He's right. I would never bother trying to memorize these made up rules that no native would even be able to tell you. It's a waste of mental effort.
Are you brain damaged
I almost lost the sexual emotion, so maybe yes in a way where you can't be free from.
草食系なんだ、君?
元々はそうでもない
魔法使い様
>魔法使いになれば、日本語をマスターします。
なるほど(´・ω・｀)
>almost lost the sexual emotion
too much porn fries the brain
>Is it worth to watch it?
I recommend you the show if you like to watch cute girls doing cute things in the fantasy world where is set in Colmar, France.
>too much porn fries the brain
self projection
一杯
いくら勉強しても日本語が話せない
出来ないちゃんはいわば私達のマスコットです
I went to a conference and now I think I should have just stayed at home to study.
What sort of conference?
hmmmmm sweet sweet chino
>a conference
what kind of conference?
Is it something relating to your study?
It's Machine Learning focused so yes. Right now there's a talk on matching and composing piano music on the fly.
Those who don't attend the meeting will never be acknowledged in this society.
>学会(?)
Was it that アゴアシ付き one?
10円 says he meant a convention.
Ah, shit. Should have refreshed.
Was it at least interesting?
>10円
>ジュー(ム)ェン
It took a bit to figure out what you meant though..
>Was it that アゴアシ付き one?
I have no idea what アゴアシ means
It's the most interesting one so far because it's something different. Before this I got bored by the same kind of talks as you get all the time.
he bet the 10yen to it.