I don't suffer in Finland

>commieblocks bad
>inefficient sprawling neighborhoods good

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This is a million times more than living in this literal DYSTOPIA. This place is a fucking dystopia, please get me out of here, you have no fucking idea how much I suffer in this place. And no, I'm not a nigger, nor a monkey, I'm actually a fucking autist like you Finns and I hate warming and extroverted people and all I want is a nice cozy small place in some country that isn't dystopic so I can live in peace and respect your culture or whatever.

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it's only 8 different posters, that's the fucked up thing

i felt tooth pain from your pic

Finland was poor country, and it can be felt in architecture. Estonia is much higher class

This.
Finland needs to be russified

>city "people"

Typical north european architecture.
At least these commieblocks are easy to provide central heating and all communications, walls are also thick

>Finland was poor country, and it can be felt in architecture

Helsinki's old town looks pretty wealthy. You can see Finland was still the richest part of the Russian Empire.

>everything has to be efficient

When you're planning cities that are supposed to house hundreds and millions of people, yes, you need to care about efficiency. Otherwise you get sprawling abominations like the LA where you can't have a viable system of public transportation, infrastructure is very costly to fix, and you waste hours every day commuting to work.

Besides, there's absolutely nothing wrong with cheap public housing, even if it's not the pinnacle of aesthetics. Mutts love to shit on Soviet-era Khruschyovkas because they're "le so gray and depressing :^(", meanwhile most of them are going to die in debt to pay off their disgusting little suburban cardboard boxes with swimming pools in the backyard. I actually find it extremely impulsive that Western "adults" care more about cheerful, colourful facades than cheap and accessible housing. What a fucked up system of values.

>impulsive
Repulsive, fucking phone

No, that's not true. Ylilauta has like 50k monthly visitors which is the finnish version of this site and a lot of those people browse this place. IIRC our country has the highest posters per capita on this site.

>Otherwise you get sprawling abominations like the LA where you can't have a viable system of public transportation, infrastructure is very costly to fix, and you waste hours every day commuting to work.

In Moscow you supposedly have great public transport yet traffic jams are horrible either and people spend 2 hours to get to work/back home as well, not a big difference with LA, but the real difference is in quality of life - while an average Californian has a big house with his own backyard, garden, garage, an average Moscovian lives packed like sardines in a small apartment in a 30-floor monstrosity closely surrounded by other monstrosities so he never sees the sun.

>I actually find it extremely impulsive that Western "adults" care more about cheerful, colourful facades than cheap and accessible housing.

Where do you have "cheap and accessible houses" in Eastern Europe? As compared to wages, a small apartment in any of eastern European capitals is much more expensive than a house in most of American major cities. And pretty much everyone needs a 30-year bank loan here as well, despite getting much, much worse quality for that.

All they need to do is lower the number and cost of parking places, plus other measures to incentivize people to use public transportation instead of cars.

See, the main difference between Moscow and LA is that Moscow's traffic problems can be fixed solely by switching to public transport, meanwhile in LA that's impossible because its urban planning directly inhibits such measures.
>Where do you have "cheap and accessible houses" in Eastern Europe?
We don't have it anymore, but that's largely irrelevant because our home ownership rates are already higher. In countries like Romania it's maybe ~98% or something, I don't remember.

>All they need to do is lower the number and cost of parking places, plus other measures to incentivize people to use public transportation instead of cars.
>See, the main difference between Moscow and LA is that Moscow's traffic problems can be fixed solely by switching to public transport, meanwhile in LA that's impossible because its urban planning directly inhibits such measures.

if it was so easy it would be already done.

and still it doesn't change the fact that the quality of living is way higher for a Californian than for a Moscovian - I'd rather get stuck in a traffic jam for 0,5h longer to come to my big house where I'm going to spend the evening, the night and the weekend instead of coming to a small apartment where I can hear my neighbor having sex.

Efficiency is not as important as quality of life unless you're a communist dictator.

>We don't have it anymore, but that's largely irrelevant because our home ownership rates are already higher. In countries like Romania it's maybe ~98% or something, I don't remember.

First of all - we never had it, because houses in communism weren't accessible, you needed to wait for years or decades to get one and still it was never enough, so basically only privileged people with connections in the commie party got the best flats without queues - how was it any different from capitalism?

>our home ownership rates are already higher.

Yeah but it's only among boomers, young people have to rent if they don't want to live with their parents in their 45 sqm 2-room commieblock apartment.

You can have both. You can have cheap and effective high rise public housing and a city with a lot of sprawl. It's actually better for the people's mental health, since the spaces can be used for green spaces.
Pic related is kinda how you should plan a city imo. People living in high rise buildings contrasted by small shops nearby and nature nearby

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>and still it doesn't change the fact that the quality of living is way higher for a Californian than for a Moscovian
What a retarded argument. Of course living standards are higher in the USA, a rich country, than in Russia, which is a corrupt shithole under sanctions. You're conflating wealth and consequentially quality of life with urban planning.
>we never had it, because houses in communism weren't accessible, you needed to wait for years or decades
No shit, they were supposed to incentivize you to work. But regardless, housing projects that were undertaken in 60s and 70s had overwhelmingly positive results -- families that were crammed in kommunalkas had their own apartments, homelessness was virtually non-existent, blocks were planned as independent units so that people spend as little time as possible commuting, and so on.
>Yeah but it's only among boomers, young people have to rent if they don't want to live with their parents in their 45 sqm 2-room commieblock apartment
Well, we don't have mass housing projects anymore, in case you haven't noticed.

Pt 2
>Efficiency is not as important as quality of life unless you're a communist dictator.
It is VERY important.
>More challenging to service, especially in terms of infrastructure needs
>Overall not as vibrant (sparse cities have measurable differences on behaviour than more dense ones)
>Energy inefficient, since it obviously takes more energy to illuminate, supply, more energy to move around etc.
>Less resilient in the case of economic depression or disaster and overall less adaptable, given that different uses are often more segregated.
>Tax revenues per unit area are lower, making it harder to compensate for inefficiencies
>The suburbanization eventually ensures that a majority of new arrivals will inevitably require individually owned cars in order to travel back and forth between the industrial and commercial zones these suburbs were paved to be in proximity of. This quickly compounds issues of traffic density and pollution, discourages public transportation and cycling, while at the same time making it progressively worse for individuals as well (who will waste time commuting)
>Damage to the environment is direct and exactly as controlled as the sprawl, as you're tearing out entire ecosystems and paving straight over them. A lot of studies regarding the impacts will be swept under the rug, btw.
>Wetlands and swamps get drained -- which is very important since they provide an important buffer-zone within a local system, and their removal directly leads to erosion and flooding of what's left.
>Suburbanization tends to mean that what apartments (soon to be condominiums) are left in the original main urban center very rapidly become prime real estate. This means people living close to work will very quickly see their living arrangements drastically increase in price where possible, and where the law instead protects the renter from predatory practices, slums will instead form

>Of course living standards are higher in the USA, a rich country, than in Russia,

No, I didn't mean wages, simply 'living' conditions as referring to housing conditions mostly.

>But regardless, housing projects that were undertaken in 60s and 70s had overwhelmingly positive results

By this logic we can say western countries have improved their housing situation as well, average British working class person lived in terrible conditions before WW2 but throughout the post-war period his living standards have greatly risen. And they didn't need communism or commieblocks for that (they did build few but it wasn't really relevant as few people lived there).

>Well, we don't have mass housing projects anymore

Don't know about Hungary, but in Poland more apartments are being built now than in the most prosperous 1970s. Of course it's not the state that builds them but private developers, but still, the housing shortage is soon to be relieved.

everything you said must have sounded really appealing to the commies that's why they went for it I believe but in reality people care about their personal life more than about state-enforced 'efficiency' and are unhappy when they have to live like the state wants them to.

I was raised in a commieblock from the 1980s, now I live in a new block and I would never return to the previous one, no way. I want to live happily even if it's not as efficient and hinders our GDP growth by 0,73534 percentage points.

>house hundreds and millions of people
And why should there be hundreds of millions of people anywhere on Earth? The population should be capped at 500,000,000.

>I suffer in the first world

>mfw the only way to get affordable housing in Austria's major cities is by moving into our own version of commieblocks

What made these people in this thread so angry?

Life in Töölö is actually pretty nice

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Did they have to make them so fucking dull?

>macaco urban planning
What did you expect?

Have you ever been to St.Petersburg?

Are you stupid, flats in Moscow are cheap af, most of Europe in general is very very cheap when it comes to housing especially Russia ffs

Every Finnish town, except for Helsinki and Porvoo, look the same to me.

>tfw you will never be a Wiener Gemeinebau lowlife scum, living for 150€ a month near the best locations in a 50m^2 two room.

Spb was the capital, I don't consider it a typical "part of the Russian Empire". Finland was developed as a whole and Helsinki was actually a provincial town yet it looked quite wealthy as compared to other provincial towns like that.

do you understand what "compared to wages" means? Do you realize the average net wage in Moscow is less than $1000/month?

Flats in Moscow can be had for under 50,000usd ya cunt which is nothing

Can confirm. I'm able to purchase a small apartment in Saint-Petersburg from my two years savings.
Although, I don't really want to do it, because the rent is fairly cheap

>Can confirm. I'm able to purchase a small apartment in Saint-Petersburg from my two years savings.

Because you don't make average Spb wage but way more.

Nothing for a New Zealander who makes like 40k USD/year. Not for an average Moscovian who barely makes 12k.

>but in reality people care about their personal life more than about state-enforced 'efficiency'
I don’t really care what people want, it's a well-known fact that they don't know what's good for them. Like I said, urban sprawl increases operational costs for mass transit, power grid and plumbing much more than building high rise cities. It causes unnecessary pollution and it's wasteful. In the long run, that'll lower the living standards far more than high urban density possibly could.
>Don't know about Hungary, but in Poland more apartments are being built now than in the most prosperous 1970s
I don't know about Poland, but I'm having a hard time even imagining a situation where massive projects like New Belgrade and Novi Zagreb are undertaken in some Eastern Euro shithole again.
>By this logic we can say western countries have improved their housing situation as well
Well obviously, you're comparing developed, prosperous countries to Warsaw Pact shitholes. Besides, I never implied that Westerners are bad at urban planning, merely that they shouldn't be terrified by cheap, efficient housing while not holding shitholes like LA to the same standard.
>now I live in a new block a
New blocks are good too, and much better in terms of thermal insulation, as long as the prices aren't artificially inflated.

Not to mention this 50k flat in Moscow will be a small apartment in an old commieblock with poor maintenance and no amenities or on the far outskirts Russians call poeticallly 'ebenya' in a 30-floor block called even more poetically 'muraveinik'.

well, i personally think Dutch urban planning and housing system is the best in the world, their terraced/semi-detached houses in well planned areas provide both high living standards and don't cause traffic issues as public transport can be still efficient in such areas

>In the long run, that'll lower the living standards far more than high urban density possibly could.

only in countries with gradually increasing population, not in eastern Europe where population decreases

if I don't live in a megacity but in a small town with stable population, why would I need commieblocks?

I have bought a flat in the ring recently for 45,000 undecorated ofc near the metro too, the average house in my neighborhood is 1.2 million so even with a 40k wage you would have to save up

And also its fucking stupid to tell me about a city I literally grew up in

the difference is most of New Zealanders live in cozy detached houses, not in cramped apartments

and there is a reason why you live in NZ, not in Moscow.

>the average house in my neighborhood is 1.2 million

Is your neighborhood 'average' in NZ?

anyway, i hope NZ's housing situation will improve following the ban on buying property by Chinese investors

I'll be soon, since I'm moving there. And yes, it's just for the money. Fuck v*Ennese """""people""""" and their whiny attitude

>if I don't live in a megacity but in a small town with stable population, why would I need commieblocks?
Because it's still a waste of resources? And because cities keep expanding because of people moving in from rural areas? All over EE, suburbs are vomit-inducing because peasants come and build uglyass houses in the suburbs. If you wanna live in a house, move to the countryside. Cities are supposed to be efficient.

I live here because I don't like Europe in general as its a concrete jungle filled with antisocial apes and no 1.2 million is not the nz average its just Auckland , our average house value is around 600k last time I checked

Godspeed, I'm not even Austrian. You won't be a Gemeindebau lowlife though, because for that you have to apply at least two years in advance or have good connections within the red party.

>Because it's still a waste of resources?

I am ready for that to increase my personal quality of living.

> And because cities keep expanding because of people moving in from rural areas?

That's not fast growth at least here (but we have several major cities so its different than in Hungary I guess), it's totally sustainable without big commieblocks

>All over EE, suburbs are vomit-inducing because peasants come and build uglyass houses in the suburbs

Well, you're right about ugliness but it's not that blocks are beautiful either. That's just EE mind that needs time to be improved.

>Cities are supposed to be efficient.

You're getting too ideological here.

>as its a concrete jungle filled with antisocial apes

So now you get why prices in NZ are higher.

Anyway, I didn't compare Moscow to Auckland but to major US cities, where houses are much cheaper than in the land down under or Canada as compared to wages (except for the Bay Area).

based Tirolean

People think its super expensive to live here but its mostly a myth as most things are cheap including fuel, food and electronics which don't have tax like in Europe, but housing is mad here and have to agree with you

fuck off we're full

The correct grammar is I thrive

Move to Switzerland. Swiss are extemely autist/anti social. Very peaceful, low crime rate, scenic landscape, cozy Medieval cities.

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>I am ready for that to increase my personal quality of living
Well, I guess there's no point continuing this conversation then, Patuljko.

>And pretty much everyone needs a 30-year bank loan here as well, despite getting much, much worse quality for that.
Housing is fucked here too mate, it's because foreign investors and boomers buy up property and don't rent it out. The property lays vacant and property values get driven up artificially. Same thing in Canada, and London. It's fucking stupid.

Kill yourself then.

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I'm actually surprised you kept it going for so long, you said you had hidden Polish posts.

still not to the Eastern European level

>I'm not even austrian
Yes you are, Miroslav.
>Gemeindebau lowlife
I grew up in one in an unnamed small city near Vienna, so I already am one. And even though it was horribly maintained and a shithole full of foreigners, it was my shithole

Desu I still don't understand why anyone would oppose cheap mass housing that'd make housing prices plummet but approve of selyak cuckshacks, but whatever.
>you said you had hidden Polish posts.
You know I actually like arguing with you, don't pretend you're surprised.