Ahhh the Holy Roman Empire...home

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>Toothpaste country

the HRE went to shit when they lost northern italy

Based

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Umm sweetie

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Pray tell, who is this Italian Gentleman?

Who is this? He looks like a brainlet.

He's as Italian as Garibaldi is French.

cope

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>t.

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is he from Marseille?

average Toulouse man

Yeah, what's your point with the italian ?
europe is indeed great and all forms of meme nationalism must be baned

>germans
>blonde

third coolest empire in history, on par with Byzantium

>empire

yes

Not even a fucking kingdom, let alone empire.

Friendly reminder that Fredrich II, King of Sicily, Emperor and King of the Romans, had the GOAT HRE

but as usual italians ruined everything, and the pope also screwed him, even after he successfully expanding the Crusader States, ending the Sixth Crusade

>Fight two crusades
>get excommunicated twice

He deserved better, he really came close to establishing a true roman "empire" once again

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Indeed he did, but Charles V was even more powerful

You could even count the Spanish New World under his domain, as he ruled both Spain and HRE

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Quite possibly the biggest LARP in history. Why do Germans like "we wuz"-ing as Romans so fucking much?

No, the Ottomans were the biggest LARPers. Or even Russia.

The Pope made the HRE the continuation of the Western Roman Empire. He had the ultimate word in the Catholic Middle Ages; what he said was sacred and everyone agreed to (most of the time). The Pope was part of the Roman Empire (although shared equal power with the other figureheads like Antioch and Constantinople back then).

(forgot to end the sentence)
Thus, with Papal blessing, people in Europe accepted that the HRE was de facto the continuation of the Western Roman Empire. The Byzantines didn't like it at all and from that point forward the Pope stopped having any say on Byzantine matters (the Emperor was blessed by the Pope upon his coronation and the former usually confirmed the election of a Pope)

The real successor to Rome.

it was in the early days
It had a far greater centralization in its early days than it did later on
it wasnt always the dilapidated mess that voltaire is famous for trolling

overall yes, but it could be argued that Fredrich II was more focused on europe in general

and again, the maximum extent of sovereignty kind of went to shit after Charles V's reign ended

its a damn shame that a Franco-Spanish Personal union was never allowed to form, could have easily become a european superpower if the war of spanish succession had ended differently...

not at all, they had legitimacy, as
said
Ottoman empire and/or Russia are the bigger larpers, depending on how you define it (Russia followed the religion and the imperial guards were proto-russians for a while, and they emulated and imitated the Romans (byzantines) but they havnt really occupied the same land, while Ottomans took the byzantine land, and probably the population too, but the religion and culture were replaced, not emulated or protected)

Russia is like a spiritual successor/Larp
while Ottoman empire was more wearing the dead corpse of the roman empire, while it replaced everything that one could argue, made the lands "roman" in the first place (besides geography)

Russians wanted to be the next (third) Rome (well, Moscow as the "third Rome", after Constantinople became the "second Rome")

while Ottomans wanted to replace and be a succession of their contemporary "Rum"

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the HRE and Ottomans still have a way better claim to Rome than Russia, Italy, and Spain.
The Ottomans at least conquered Constantinople, which was under the Nicean Empire LARPing as the Roman Empire that had been destroyed by the Latin Empire in 1204.

Was a secular anti christian state*
Where Christianity meant little more than a church and priests

It was closest to actual unification during Barbarossa's rule.

wtf the HRE actualy included Rome.
But I thought it wasn't really roman....

That's why there were bishoprics all over the place, right?

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My ancestor

Barbarossa was quite based as well. He had a sad end, though

For a long time the Emperor was crowned by the Pope himself and it kept being mostly catholic until the end

His quote about crusade was metal as fuck. Too bad I can't find it now. He pretty much complimented every nation that tagged along with him.

wait why do you call him Barbarossa in italian and not something like Redbeard?

I'm an italianboo. I don't give a flying fuck about germany or subhuman germanic languages.

noone calls him Red Beard; Barbarossa was how he was known in the world because the Italians named him as such during his Italian campaigns

nice

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Still accurate though.

Quote really needs to be taken within the context of its time, for a long time it was all 3, reformation killed it

>Why do Germans like "we wuz"-ing as Romans so fucking much?
Completey false though. We have always rejected the Romans. Germans have always LARPed as ancient Greeks and tried to keep the ancient Greek spirit up which is why we have been odds with Anglos and other Romanized peoples of Europes who are Romeboos.

The Holy Roman Empire wasn't larping wasn't a Roman larp?

it was founded before the modern german identity emerged

It's not LARPing if you really are the Roman Emperor

Nope
>Holy
It was holy, not only did the Pope make the decision to revive the Roman Empire, but most subsequent emperors were crowned by the Pope as well.
>Roman
Controlled a large part of territory the Roman Empire contained. The seat of the state religion was in Rome as well that is where the Emperors were crowned
>Empire
The ruler had the official title of 'Emperor" and they ruled over a large territory.

> Holly
Made up fairy tale bullshit.

>Controlled a large part of territory the Roman Empire contained.

Are you touched in the head? That is nothing compared to the full size of the Roman Empire, and by that logic of your Brazil/Brazilians are Portuguese, and therefore Europeans, cause we control a vast part, we more than you are used by comparison to say they were "Roman", of once was the Portuguese Empire.

> Empire
The title of Emperor is arbitrary, there is nothing to do with territorial control, and goes back to the made up fairy tale bullshit of catholic church.

>The title of Emperor is arbitrary
wrong, there could only be one emperor due to translatio imperii. napoleon had to dismantle the hre before making himself emperor.

this term is new to me, but from what I understood it roughly means "transfer of power", and sure you have to have the absolute power of a region to claim yourself an Emperor, but this claim seems very arbitrary to me. Even Haiti under Jean-Jacques Dessalines declared it self an Empire, Brazil as well, and it has being contemporaneous Emperors.

yes, and you call it Roman despite the fact it is obviously Germanic

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That didn't make these Empires legitimate though while the HRE was considered the legitimate successor of Rome for centuries. Of course as the central power of the emperors waned over the centuries, their claim to legitimity lost power as well.

In general the HRE is way too complicated for many people cause it doesn't fit in either their old ideas of Empires like Rome nor the modern nation state. Basically the Holy Roman Emperors considered themselves the legal authority of all of Christendom in the world.

Uh, one thing I should.
Excuse me for one second.

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>Made up fairy tale bullshit.
The catholic church and the papacy were just fairy tales? please do enlighten me more with your high IQ posting
>The title of Emperor is arbitrary, there is nothing to do with territorial control, and goes back to the made up fairy tale bullshit of catholic church.
The title goes back to pagan times with the first Roman Emperor, you brainlet

>Basically the Holy Roman Emperors considered themselves the legal authority of all of Christendom in the world.

That's what make the whole thing arbitrary to me, to only Holly Roman Empire, but in various claims of royalty itself. Cause in may vision anyone can make a club full of dogmas and cause "God" said appoint me or any other person as rightfully chosen by God as a bastion of moral, good and etc.

But I think my problem is with the arbitrary I see in all claims of royalty, that makes me see this as one of this cases, but yeah if you consider the Christianity of that time, the people the so called "Empire" accept you could say that it was, but besides religion and the people of the territory accepting it, having the power the choose or not, to bind it, so again seems arbitrary, so long you have a moral system to justify your claim and it's people to support you, by force or free will, you are an Emperor.

Either you have faith or you don't. If you have faith then an Emperor who is crowned by what you BELIEVE is literally God's representative on earth is actually legit.

Religion by definition is fairy tale, and so is the papacy. A bullshit told over and over to get power to dictate the morals of a region.

Yeah, the justification of Church and the Imperial Roma was really the same. HAHAHAHAHA. Good joke.
And in Roma the title was hold by power demonstration, who had the hearts of the army and influence, so as I said, arbitrary, so longo you have the power to proclaim yourself as it and someone or entity that sees advantageous you to be in power to give it some legality you are emperor, that is arbitrary.

Too much buzzwords and little argumentation.

Yeah, looking like that i would agree in that very specific circumstances it was and Empire, but to me seems more like a thought control case and that have to be seem in the perspective of the people being ruled, than a rule that we can use to measure what was or was not an Empire.

What about the Carolingian Empire?

>Religion by definition is fairy tale,
No, a religion by definition is a religion.
>A bullshit told over and over to get power to dictate the morals of a region.
What does this even mean? Of course religions dictate morality.
>Yeah, the justification of Church and the Imperial Roma was really the same. HAHAHAHAHA. Good joke.
I never said this
>And in Roma the title was hold by power demonstration, who had the hearts of the army and influence
Not always, there were plenty of emperors who did nothing in the military. But are you implying the Holy Roman Emperors didn’t have the loyalty of their armies? Because they could command much more loyalty because of the feudal system.

It was glorious while it lasted

>It was holy, not only did the Pope make the decision to revive the Roman Empire
Roman Empire existed and Pope was a raging retard who couldnt accept the fact that females could be Emperors as well

You still can't grasp even a little of my point.
Just forget it, you aren't mentally capable to continue this conversation, and besides that I already got what I wanted.

Have a good night.

Females couldn’t. The “imperials” in Constantinople lost all illegitimacy with the murder of Constantine VI by his own mother

>germans destroyed roman empire
>we wuz romanz n shieet muh brudi

G A R B A G E

Times change. Germans became Roman Emperors

You better believe it.

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>The “imperials” in Constantinople lost all illegitimacy
Thanks for confirming to my statement. Now fuck off and deal with the fact that there was no Roman Empire to restore

Burgundy
Home

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Sallic law (inheritance is divided between heirs) killed it before it could even start

could have been great, but their ambition was too shortsighted

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It was restored whether you like the fact or not

It would have worked out if Louis the Pious wasn’t constantly screwing with the succession and fighting his older sons

my ancestors :)

not even the best burgundy
the Kingdom of Burgundy was greater than any Lotharingian duchy

That duchy's borders are so ugly its enough to make someone lose their head :^)

you mean if his three eldest sons ever stopped fighting him, and trying to get some land for his fourth kid wasnt too great of a thing to ask for

but in the end it matters not, since the very act of dividing a kingdom when you die is what killed the empire before it could establish a permanent hold of its lands

If any of the carolingian kings had ever changed inheritance, giving it all to one person (who that one person is is not too important) then they could have been great

Charlemagne's descendants played themselves

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is EU the nuHRE?

two completely different animals

if anything, EU is like ancient USA (before we remade our government in 1790)

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blessed map, except for spain

no, unfortunately.
The EU has far more power, is not a monarchy, and is capitalist.

>kingdom of germany

pic related is better anyways, if we disclude the original roman empire

hardly, EU has no military influence to speak of, and very limited power of the purse
not to mention the vastly different concept of sovereignty between the two time periods (or lack thereof in the HRE's case)

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