2019

Lets have meme flags just like pol!

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just pointing out the fact that the EU is a sovereign country and the member states are not and that it's odd to not have a EU flag on 4channel
facts don't care about your feelings

Tf
Tp

Cringe

>the fact that the EU is a sovereign country
No, it isn't. It is not recognized by anyone as a country and doesn't even fulfill the most basic requirements of being a country.

It’s the worlds most important coalition and will soon have its army which will likely become the largest of its kind on Earth. How is that not important? Also I think state flags for the US would be nice.

>country: a nation with its own government, occupying a particular territory.

>How is that not important?
It has literally nothing to do with the fact that the EU is NOT a country and is very far from even fulfilling basic requirements to be considered one.

Okay, berlin a country?
It has its own government and occupies a territory.

By that standard even some random village is a country, simply because it has a government and occupied a particular place.

is berlin a nation

>will soon have its army
Citation needed
I would also allow an optional EU flag to allow me to bully those stupid enough to post with it

national flags should be optional since they're lower in the hierarchy
otherwhise we would also have province or state level flags

They certainly might have a common identify, language and culture, so I guess yes.

>churka churka da da ungabunga

EU flag should be optional since it's not a country

>A lot of europeans don't really identify with the arbritrary social construct they live in

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You’re right, it’s better than a country on every level and by every metric. It also represents more than Germany since your country just like mine and all other is a mere social construct as OP stated. Look at how easily your past governments fell and were quickly replaced. The EU actually represents something than just a single language speaking territory or one singular people and brings many similar peoples together to partake in actually moving the world forward since shitskins are not capable of doing so likewise, even if they ever manage to create an African Union.

>my nation state that has existed for over 500
italy is less than 150 years old

>brings many similar peoples together
Nah, it spends its time negrifying Europe.

Every single EU politician needs to hang before I support it.

>that flag
>my nation state that has existed for over 500 years as a cohesive independent entity is an artificial construct
>that flag
>my nation state that has existed for over 500 years as a cohesive independent entity is an artificial construct
>that flag

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I was referring to your country, not mine, you absolute moron. And even Italy has existed over three times as long as the EU.

so you recognize the fact that italy is a social construct

Okay, if Italy is a geographical expression WHAT THE FUCK IS THE EU THEN.

Well I was trying to be civil but it’s obvious you’re just another racist who migrated here from Jow Forums so you can eat shit for all I care. Take a fucking hint you retards, you also out yourselves when I talk to you. You know you can’t change destiny right?

The difference between a table is a social construct.

Calling something a "social construct" is absolutely meaningless.

>The difference between a table
*Between a table and a chair.

Berlin isn't sovereign, the German federal government is above Berlin, and the EU is above the German federal government.

Italy was created from a bunch of previously warring and uncohesive states just like the EU, if anything the fact that Italy has remained perfectly together and has formed a cohesive national identity is a perfect argument in favour of a EU confederation.
Also Dutch independence was the mid 17th century, not 500 years ago.

A political expression, obviously, no geographical feature exists that is called “a union”. “Europe” is, arguably, a geographical expression, although I personally believe it is a cultural expression, and that Europe is not bounded by any geographical feature.

>Well I was trying to be civil
Just to remind you, YOU started calling people shitskins.

> You know you can’t change destiny right?
Yeah, the end of the world is nigh.

>Berlin isn't sovereign
And?
Where in his definition did he say that was necessary?

I don’t care about non-whites but I also don’t care about people who can’t keep their streets clean. Same reason I wouldn’t care if most of the west coast here was destroyed by nuclear hellfire. Maybe if you had more kids your government wouldn’t need to import people to keep the birthrates up, not that I would expect a virgin manchild Jow Forumsyp to have children of course.

>its own government
That means “sovereign”. It's not a clear cut line and it does get blurry, but I think it's pretty clear that Berlin's government isn't just “its own government”.

>Maybe if you had more kids your government wouldn’t need to import people to keep the birthrates up
Maybe if the government enabled people to have more kids birthrates would go up?

By the way, the Turks weren't imported because of low German birthrates, they were imported due to political pressure from the US and Turkey who recently joined NATO and didn't want to leave after having been GUESTworkers.

>That means “sovereign”.
Fine, the EU isn't a sovereign either, as the member states can theoretically do whatever they want, even leave.

>Maybe if the government enabled people to have more kids birthrates would go up?
why would they do that if they could just get people to immigrate?

>they were imported due to political pressure from the US and Turkey who recently joined NATO and didn't want to leave after having been GUESTworkers.
why were there turkish guestworkers in the first place?

>Italy was created from a bunch of previously warring and uncohesive states just like the EU
Not to the extent of the EU, for instance the same literary language was employed across the country, and Roman Catholicism was practiced everywhere. Even then the unification process was abrupt, quite violent and not pretty by any account, I can assure you that you don't want it repeated on a continent wide scale. Not to mention that while Italy succeeded, a similar project like Yugoslavia failed miserably in the end because unlike Italy they had different religions and fancied themselves with different forefathers(to oversimplify things). Now again imagine trying to replicate that on a continent wide scale.

>why would they do that if they could just get people to immigrate?
Because the point of nation state should be to protect its native people, if it fails at that it fails at its most basic role.
The EU is so shitty because it doesn't give a single fuck about the European peoples and cares significantly more about the African garbage that swims in through the Mediterranean.
Its not that I am not a Paneuropeanist, but the EU is literally betraying all native Europeans and is destroying everything good about Europe (Europeans).
>why were there turkish guestworkers in the first place?
Who cares? Probably because Germany was a great place to live at some point.

Similarly, all USSR republics could leave at any moment via a process that was contemplated in their constitutions, in fact it was that right to leave that was used in 1990-1991. Does that make the USSR non-sovereign?

>Does that make the USSR non-sovereign?
It would surely seem so.

USSR republics didn't have independent fiscal policies, law codes or international relations as long as they remained part of the USSR.

>Who cares?
you should if you really care about immigration
those guest workers were there to fill the void of working class young men left by the war
Now that birth rates have slowed down, we're seeing another shortage of working men so we import brown people again.

>Because the point of nation state should be to protect its native people
source?

>The EU is so shitty because it doesn't give a single fuck about the European peoples
and according to you germany doesn't either so what's your point?

>the same literary language was employed across the country
But not the vernacular language, and many parts of Italy still do speak languages other than Italian. I can't pretend to know how many Italians spoke Italian in 1860, but I'd wager a lot didn't, and just spoke Venetian or Sard or whatever.
Similarly, the vast majority of the educated European population, especially the youth, speaks English with a relatively high degree of fluency. Among my friends, everyone speaks English.
>Roman Catholicism was practiced everywhere
True for Italy, but Germany, which also arised as a coalition of states, had Protestants and Catholics on its territory. They also spoke what were arguably different languages across the regions. It didn't stop a German national identity from arising.

>those guest workers were there to fill the void of working class young men left by the war
No, not really. The German government didn't even really want them. They were pressured into it by the US and Turkey, who recently joined NATO.

>Now that birth rates have slowed down, we're seeing another shortage of working men so we import brown people again.
Okay, here is a revolutionary Idea. What if, just purely hypothetical (and this may sound radical) the German government would do something to increase native birthrates?

>and according to you germany doesn't either
You are absolutely right, German politicians should all hang too.

>source?
What other point could a nation state possibly have?
It is similar people coming together, because the sum of them will be more effective then the whole.

>What if, just purely hypothetical (and this may sound radical) the German government would do something to increase native birthrates?
like I said: why would they do that if they could just get people to immigrate?

>It is similar people coming together, because the sum of them will be more effective then the whole.
okay let's unite the EU then

Not so different to the case of the EU, although it is true that EU member states currently retain more power than the SSRs did.
Aside from the exceptions of the UK and Denmark, EU member states don't have an independent currency (or are bound by their treaties to lose it ASAP). Similarly, trade is conducted on a European level.

>What if, just purely hypothetical (and this may sound radical) the German government would do something to increase native birthrates?
The right wing would lose its shit because the only way to reliably achieve that is welfare, welfare and more welfare, livable wages for all young people and public spending in facilities like daycare.

>why would they do that if they could just get people to immigrate?
Because, there is NO POINT in a nation state if it doesn't protect the nation.

>okay let's unite the EU then
Okay fine, after having the entire traitorous elite shot and having a constitution which makes explicit that the EU ONLY exists for native Europeans and no other people.
Again, I am a Paneuropeanist.

>The right wing would lose its shit because the only way to reliably achieve that is welfare, welfare and more welfare,
No?
Just reduce Taxes for people who have children, that is BY THE WAY exactly what Orban HAS done and part of what the AfD is proposing to do.

Also "left/right" is a big meme, associating reactionary family values with a certain economic policy always seemed retarded to me.

>Just reduce Taxes for people who have children, that is BY THE WAY exactly what Orban HAS done and part of what the AfD is proposing to do.
Yeah so not things that have actually been proven to work.
NATIVE French birthrate are nearing the replacement rate at >1,8, how do you think that was achieved? By just lowering taxes? No, it works because French has a pretty solid welfare system.
Lowering taxes doesn't work because poor people already pay little to no taxes. And the majority of the nation is poor, so at most you will slightly increase the birthrate of the upper classes. This is why Orbán and the AfD are complete and useless tools even for actually raising the European birthrate.

>Also "left/right" is a big meme, associating reactionary family values with a certain economic policy always seemed retarded to me.
leftist philosophy is mutually exclusive with reactionary arbitrary hierarchy structures like race

I mean, I am not *against* welfare for people who have children, which my last line was about.
I don't actually care about "the right" and I really don't care who would get upset by that.

And it isn't even like there is a real "right" here in Germany who is ideologically against welfare, I just wanted to point out that there ARE other methods.

>leftist philosophy is mutually exclusive with reactionary arbitrary hierarchy structures like race
That's just false.
Economics is just that, Economics, it doesn't need to be ideological and associating it with a certain ideological stance kinda defeats the purpose of the "left-right" spectrum.
Also just look at the USSR, they were heavily reactionary when it came to social values (excepting religion here).

>Economics is just that, Economics
the left-right spectrum is not just economics though
>Also just look at the USSR
absolutely no one is advocating leninism in this day and age

>the left-right spectrum is not just economics though
Yeah, that kinda was my point.

>absolutely no one is advocating leninism in this day and age
I mean, there is a Maxist-Leninist Party here, I occasionally see their posters.
But that wasn't my point.

My point was that reactionary social values are NOT mutually exclusive with leftist economic Ideas, as the USSR clearly demonstrates, which was a lot more "conservative" then the US, despite the US being more "capitalist".

>they were heavily reactionary when it came to social values
They promoted women in all aspects of life and abortion was legal. They weren't Northern Europe tier, but they weren't *that* reactionary either.

The only parties with policies that would actually raise the native birthrate are left-wing parties, it's a tough pill to swallow but it's the truth. AfD, Fidesz, they'd just implement absolute meme measures that don't work while ignoring the ones that are proven to do (see: France), and when they inevitably fail and Germans/Hungarians aged 70+ are 25 % of the the population, they'll just go on a Jew-blaming rant and use whatever scapegoat possible. Maybe they'll ban abortion next (doesn't work, proven by Ireland, which still had a very low fertility rate before they legalised it).

>They weren't Northern Europe tier, but they weren't *that* reactionary either.
Just compared to the US, who certainly was the more "capitalist" they were pretty reactionary.
And even IF they were the same as the US, that would still demonstrate my point, that economic policy isn't necessarily tied to social values.

>it's a tough pill to swallow
I mean not for me. I am perfectly willing to vote for *any* party who explicitly wants to raise native birth rates, if "die linke" here would come out and say that they would get my vote.
But usually the leftist parties are very supportive of immigration and immigration itself decreases native birthrates, due to increasing costs of living in cities and reducing the available welfare per person.

>immigration itself decreases native birthrates
Look at Bulgaria, Romania, Poland, Hungary, Belarus. How much immigration have they received, and what is their native birthrate?
Again, compare to France.
Because there is no correlation, I would say your hypothesis of immigration increasing the cost of living in cities and reducing available welfare and thus leading to decreased birthrates is incorrect.

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>But not the vernacular language
In that age that was true of Spain as well, or any country for that matter.
You also grossly overestimate both the English proficiency of modern Europeans and especially their willingness to drop their native language. This goes also for the political elites, because as an aspiring superpower adopting the language of two countries that are at best seen as friendly rivals is one of the most cucked things imaginable you can do. Expect a big struggle between elites to determine if French or German should be the continental lingual franca, and poor results in actually enforcing it plus a fair amount of resentment in either case.

""""european"""""
""""union""""
kill yourself fag

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This, I am not Latvian, I am European!

for you being european is an upgrade
i bet you're the kind of fag that goes abroad and says "i am european"
fuck off, for the rest of us it's a downgrade

why would they drop their native language

>heir willingness to drop their native language
Speaking a lingua franca does not mean losing the native language. See Catalonia, Galicia, the Basque Country.
>as an aspiring superpower adopting the language of two countries that are at best seen as friendly rivals is one of the most cucked things imaginable you can do
I agree, but the fact that English is also the main language of Ireland, and spoken in Malta, makes it not a foreign EU language, even in the event of the UK leaving, and it also solves the French vs German question. Yes, ideally we would speak Interlingua or Esperanto as a lingua france, unfortunately these aren't realistic options. A choice must be made, and English is the best one. I'm not particularly happy that it is, but it's a small price to pay for independence in a world of continental giants.

>Look at Bulgaria, Romania, Poland, Hungary, Belarus. How much immigration have they received, and what is their native birthrate?
I didn't argue it was the sole cause, so I really don't get what you are tying to demonstrate here.

> I would say your hypothesis of immigration increasing the cost of living in cities
But that is just a fact?
Basic laws of markets, if the availability of goods decreases its worth increases.

man shut the fuck up YToid bitch

>I didn't argue it was the sole cause
It's not that it's not the sole cause, is that it appears to not be a cause at all, or a very minor one that isn't a priority at all for fixing birthrates.

On house prices, aside from the fact that housing is not a fixed resource (well, land is, but that's more complex and you can always build more vertical), the effect of immigration and a high birth rate are exactly the same anyway. Europeans also need roofs to live. In fact they tend to need more than non-European immigrants, which would make the raising living costs an argument against births and for immigration.
House prices are enormously driven by speculation anyway.

A lot of fags complaining about the EU don't even remember how it was before. They say they want a new EU where everyone decide by himself, but what kind of union would that be? EU is pretty shitty but divided nations gave us 2 World wars and 100 mio deaths.

The EU is a social construct and social constructs are a social construct. Pretty fucking useless term is social construct

I really don't see an Argument in your post about how an increase in population does NOT lead to an increase in housing prices.
If the population of a city increases by 5% through immigration, housing prices will necessarily rise which means that couples who want to buy a large enough home to start having a family will need to pay more money.
You really made no Argument against that, nor do I think there is logically one you could make, except denying obvious facts.

>Speaking a lingua franca does not mean losing the native language.
Yeah because Galician is in a perfectly healthy state, Leonese still has millions of speakers and Catalans have no resentment whatsoever towards Castilian, amirite?
>I agree, but the fact that English is also the main language of Ireland, and spoken in Malta, makes it not a foreign EU language
Let's adopt the language of a small fraction of the citiziens of our new superstate, that totally will go well with the French.

>If the population of a city increases by 5% through immigration, housing prices will necessarily rise
Which will lead to the construction of new housing, thus leading to a price decrease.
And even if there's no new housing, increasing the population by 5 % through either immigrants or births is the SAME thing, except immigrants require less space so they actually increase prices less.
Which again, doesn't matter because new housing is built anyway.

look at these hoops you jump through to fill your city with immigrants.....

>Galician is in a perfectly healthy state
Yes, actually.
>Catalans have no resentment whatsoever towards Castilian
No, people who speak Catalan don't have resentment towards Castilian, aside from a minority of imbeciles. The vast majority of Catalan speakers are perfectly fine with Castilian.
t. live in a Catalan-speaking area
>Let's adopt the language of a small fraction of the citiziens of our new superstate, that totally will go well with the French.
Well I'm French and I'm fine with it, at some point the rest of my countrymen will have to follow through and swallow their pride.

That's your very own interpretation, which says a lot about what you actually care about.

>>still can't post under the EU flag
>it only makes sense to allow EU members to post with the EU flag. It's basically a country of its own at this point and a lot of europeans don't really identify with the arbitrary social construct member state they live in. At least give us the choice to display EU membership next to the member state we live in. Americans aren't forced to use their state flags yet we are.

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>Which will lead to the construction of new housing, thus leading to a price decrease.
Yeah, supposing that new construction can cope with an increase in person, which is really ridiculous to argue.
Just look at the housing prices here in Germany inside the cities, they are REALLY expensive and just compare them to living somewhere farther away from major cities, there cost of living goes down.

>And even if there's no new housing, increasing the population by 5 % through either immigrants or births is the SAME thing
Yeah, EXCEPT the number of natives living in that city, of course an increase in births will lead to an eventual decrease in births, but if an increase in births is your GOAL then Immigration of course makes the entire difference, as in one scenario you get your increase in native births and in the other you DON'T.

yeah i care about my local community and culture not being swamped and defined by immigrants! God fucking forbid I care about one of the most basic human wants in history!

>supposing that new construction can cope with an increase in person, which is really ridiculous to argue
Building more houses than people are born every year is well within the reach of any industrial nation of Europe.

>Yeah, EXCEPT the number of natives living in that city
Well don't pretend it's about house prices then, I know it's not, you know it's not.

>tf
>tp

>tf
>tp

Why would you care
English is already the lingua franca you have absolutely no worry to see your culture disappear even when the whole genepool shifts

>a lot of europeans don't really identify with the arbitrary social construct member state they live in.
Fuck off

ah bloo bloo some old english people live in trailer homes. They commit an outsized proportion of crime Jaun? They have a huge amount of kids each and send the bills to the state? You don't know what you are talking about

>Building more houses than people are born every year is well within the reach of any industrial nation of Europe.
Apparently not inside major cities, where housing prices are pretty much exploding.

>Well don't pretend it's about house prices then
But you have given no argument why it is not.

>your entire culture is your language..

This is incorrect. What i care about it the British people being disenfranchised from their institutions - the ones they historically set up to look after themselves - i also care about the fact this will become a replacement and because thats been engineered to come down to demographic trends apparently thats a "conspiracy theory". I also live near several high immigrant areas and they are all utterly shit and immeasurably worse and more unpleasant because of it

This. But its always easier to meme about bananas and whatnot than to look at the grand scheme of things, their relations and implications. And that's why
>easy solutions
like UKIP, Brexit and Jow Forums exist and thrive at times.

I was referring to what the Brits did to other countries' cultures

>Apparently not inside major cities
Centralisation of jobs is a problem, I agree, but it runs totally parallel to demographic issues.

>But you have given no argument why it is not.
An increase in prices doesn't discriminate between an increase in immigrants or an increase in native population, that's why it's not an argument in either direction.

Mind you, I'm absolutely not pro-immigration and anti-birthrate, I think getting immigrants here is just pushing the problem further into the future, as they lower their birthrates as well anyway. And since I'm not a boomer I'm not keen on just pushing problems into when I'll be old.

kys op

right so knowing that why would i want that to happen to me? Fucking hell kiddo there are thing that I like and things Ii don't like and treating them the same because of some misplaced sense of hypocrisy is fucking retarded

>An increase in prices doesn't discriminate between an increase in immigrants or an increase in native population, that's why it's not an argument in either direction.
You re missing the entirety of the point.
The difference exists IF YOUR GOAL IS TO HAVE AS MANY NATIVES AS POSSIBLE IN YOUR CITY.

Meme
Instead we are losing our languages (big part of a culture) to your shitty creole
You should just be glad and stop believing in retarded conspiracies

what the fuck are you on about? I've been to Italy plenty and plenty of Italians speak Italian. If the immigrants are speaking english don't take the immigrants in...

>It's basically a country of its own at this point and a lot of europeans don't really identify with the arbitrary social construct member state they live in
hahahah lol no