We can scale BTC
with smart contract-locked tokens (like WETH)
on faster/cheap-free platforms
(ETH / EOS / IOTA / etc)
W-BTC / EOSBTC are coming v soon
isn't this miles better than Lightning?
>faster
>cheaper / free
>don't need to be online to receive funds / guard channel
>much harder to lose funds
>more secure - people wont need to withdraw to the BTC main chain as often
>blocks can stay much smaller
>BTC stays decentralized
Lmao, no thanks. And that's pretty much what Liquid is for, except btc remains the native token: btc for exchannges and traders.
Will still take some time though Blockstream.info/liquid
If your money is useless unless you use 1000 different shitcoin forks, bearer checks, agro checks, 1970s series, 2008 'freedom' series, off-chain plasma network CHOBAM field, and divide the money into another type of money, which goes down to 2000 decimals, and these are used to rank how valuable all the other shit is, except not really, because you're using something else to measure them, then you gotta ask yourself.
Are you really any better than fucking zimbabwe niggers?
>WBTC
I was just thinking about something like this. We need Bitcoin pairs on DEXs for better liquidity.
We still can't do cross-chain transfers in a decentralized way, so no this won't work well
Liquid is intended for institutions
tokenized BTC would allow Bitcoin to be used as a means of payment,
like Lightning but with less complexity
this doesnt result in inflation though
W-ETH already works
you exchange ETH for W-ETH trustlessly,
the ETH remains locked up,
eventually redeemable for W-ETH
correct me if I'm wrong
but trustless atomic swaps have already been done
hmm This is different, an actually thoughtful and insightful crypto thread on biz. How did this happen?
I assume that's the end game. LN always seemed like a doing something just to say we're doing something deal while btc gets its tendrils out 2bh.
if you have a waves wallet, btc can be traded on chain, you keep the private keys and txs are less than 5 seconds for less than a penny. Already going been working since 2016. enjoy. Waves is the best blockchain there is
>LN always seemed like a doing something just to say we're doing something deal while btc gets its tendrils out 2bh.
Second layer solutions are always worse than just using another coin instead.
we really need our own board
so we can escape the schlop schlop / pee pee poo poo threads
i propose /crc/
sounds good
can you trustlessly / transparently exchange BTC for the Waves-BTC token?
Lightning has its use cases
its good for people who dont want to trust another platform,
since you can fall back onto the main chain
without needing to go through a smart contract
>its good for people who don't want to trust another platform
But its not the same platform. Its fundamentally identical to using another coin and its more complex.
>Its fundamentally identical to using another coin
not at all
LN is worthless by itself
the underlying security of L1 is integral to LN being used
(if it wasnt, we would just use LN by itself)
>its more complex.
definitely, that's why I like the idea of BTC-redeemable tokens on other platforms
>LN is worthless by itself
Who fucking cares, its still the same shit but worse. If you want faster transactions buy another coin that's faster.
> the underlying security of L1 is integral to LN being used
(if it wasnt, we would just use LN by itself)
L1 don't matter if you are using L2 you brainlet. You are illogical as fucking hell.
> definitely, that's why I like the idea of BTC-redeemable tokens on other platforms
You are part of the reason the market is dumping. We literally need to bleed brainlets like you out of every possible cent until you off yourself.
I'm sorry for your loss user
Lightning is the best chance we have right now
ideally we'll use a combo of LN,
with tokenized BTC on other platforms
>Lightning is the best chance we have right now
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Yeah dude its not even fundamentally possible to make it work. Use another fucking coin YOU DUMB ASS.
w34k b8 m8
its already working
>incapable of naming a better coin
>its already working
It has a failure rate because the solution cant work reliably in an uncontrolled environment.
You are fucked on this on a fundamental level. Its literally impossible to make it function 100%
Why do you need btc at all in such an arrangement? Why send btc rather than eg. dai?
It only makes sense for cross-chain dexes
>a failure rate
everything has "a" failure rate lmao
LN is meant for payments between $0.01 and $100
anything above that, just use on-chain
its cheaper than CC's 1-2%
failure rate will continue to decline
as liquidity / no. of channels increases
>still cant think of a coin better than BTC
>Why do you need Bitcoin
>eg. dai
because Bitcoin is sound, global money
(aka not losing value every year)
there is no other currency / coin worthy
(or is there? I'm all ears)
>It only makes sense for cross-chain dexes
no, it makes sense for 99.4% of people's transactions
you keep most of your wealth in the most secure currency in existence
however, security at this level comes at the cost of
time / energy efficiency
instead of sacrificing the security / verifiability of the main network
so everybody's daily coffee purchase can be stored forever
(big blockers lol)
you let a faster / cheaper chain
handle the shit nobody cares to remember even an hour later
Just sell shitty BTC and buy ETH. Flippening next year guaranteed.
Scaling is a fucking meme for BTC, if they raised the blocksize to 10MB they had another 3 years to work on solution instead of making it an emergency. For ETH it's different because it just can't work at 1% of its possibilities without it.
The true problem of BTC is dogshit user experience for the plebs, they are never going to use it because it's too damn complex and noone cares about that.
"trustless"
never always trustless i think
most of the faster cheaper chains could be attacked if anyone was bothered. One of bitcoins main value props is its alleged security. Passing that off to some other platform mean that's no longer true, and if another platform becomes as secure and ubiquitous, it becomes bitcoin so to speak.
>everything has "a" failure rate lmao
Your argument has a 100% failure rate. You need to KYS seriously. You are a con artist fucking bag holder who is obviously full of fucking shit.
> LN is meant for payments between $0.01 and $100
> anything above that, just use on-chain
> its cheaper than CC's 1-2%
Fuck you, another coin is still superior to a failure rate combined with a shit centralized solution. Only an idiot would buy this absolute bullshit argument.
>t. bought at $1400
eth has a future
but never as a store of value
>if they raised the blocksize to 10MB they had another 3 years to work on solution instead of making it an emergency
that would set a dangerous precedent
we need to maximize efficiency first
scaling up an inefficient system is a centralization disaster waiting to happen
reminder that big blockers want 1tb limits
reddit.com
the whole appeal of Bitcoin
is that the money supply is transparent / auditable
(*cough* 2008 *cough*)
BTC becomes opaque if only miners/megacorps can afford to verify anything
>For ETH it's different because it just can't work at 1% of its possibilities without it.
no? how is it different
if BTC should 'just scale up'
why not ETH?
>dogshit user experience
fair enough, but that certainly didn't stop email
>but never as a store of value
The only store of value is something that stays roughly worth the same value. Stable coins are the only actual store of value.
Ponzi scams are not a store of fucking value.
>because Bitcoin is sound, global money (aka not losing value every year)
I dont see how this isnt common sense
there has ALWAYS been a trade off between security / efficiency
Gold Bars - Gold on Paper
Cash in your Safe - Cash in your Wallet
Bank Transfer - Credit Card
there's a reason credit cards are a 'layer' on top of high bank security,
instead of it being one or the other
you can't make something that maximizes security and speed
you'll just have a system that sucks at both
ok, but then nothing is 'really' trustless
>most of the faster cheaper chains could be attacked if anyone was bothered
the reason BTC needs to be hyper secure is because people are 'storing' (key word) vast amounts of wealth inside
whereas with the ETH/EOS tokens
people sending BTC through it are only cycling small amounts of money through it - pulling any large amounts back into the top-security chain
>weekly spending money VS entire net worth
which needs FtKnox levels of security?
look at Tether,
volume is almost 2x its Mcap
>another coin is still superior
funny, never heard of AnotherCoin before
do tell us how it's better than Bitcoin
>there is no other currency / coin worthy
(or is there? I'm all ears)
I already gave an example - dai - you just ignored it.
Nothing that can drop (or rise) >80% is a store of value
was legit curious which coin you'd shill
am disappoint
>implying you wouldnt suck 21 million dicks to have held BTC 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4 3 or 2 years ago
see above ^
fuck DAI for being 1% less shit than USD
> LN is meant for payments between $0.01 and $100
ayo houl da fuck up
you mean litecoin won't moon now?
>implying you wouldnt suck 21 million dicks to have held BTC 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4 3 or 2 years ago
Great argument faggot
>fuck DAI for being 1% less shit than USD
Usd actually functions as a store of value, bitcoin doesn't. The only problem is with anonymous online transfers of cash, stablecoins solve that
check out wrapped tokens on ercdex.com
>was legit curious which coin you'd shill
>am disappoint
Its doesnt fucking matter you god damn ingrate. PICK ONE THAT DOES WHAT YOU FUCKING NEED. Why are you people so fucking retarded!?
>funny, never heard of AnotherCoin before
Anything that is faster and cheaper YOU MORON. Use BTC to buy the other coin then use the other coin. It works 100% with no failure rate, its simpler, likely more secure than LN and less chance of bullshit bugs.
If you don't understand this fucking concept you are a moron nobody should listen to ever. Layer 2 solutions are trash when you can just swap to another coin for what you need.
thanks, it IS a good argument
why are you so eager to defend fiat currency?
they lose value every year by design
USD has lost over 20% of its value due to inflation in the last 10 years
>inb4 market crash
gold has short term market fluctuations too,
but is considered by most people to be a superior store of value
>pick any coin you want
>NOO dont pick BTC i weally weally hate it >:'o
BTC + LN
= highest security + instant transactions / negligible fees
>thanks, it IS a good argument
No its not, its an argument that only holds true for specific people negating the entire argument its a store of value because its obviously not a store of value to most people.
> why are you so eager to defend fiat currency?
> they lose value every year by design
uh he made the argument that DAI is a better store of value than BTC. Hes also 100% fucking correct.
>NOO dont pick BTC i weally weally hate it >:'o
HAHAHAHA
This is beyond stupid. Literally nobody reading this going to take you seriously. You are desperately trying your ass off to look smug but you are fucked on this man. LN is not functional, it cannot work, even if it could it would still be more of a pain in the ass than just buying something fucking coin that does what you need and use it.
> BTC + LN
> = highest security + instant transactions / negligible fees
Also this isn't even true, you have to lock up large amounts of btc to be able to setup a node of your own. It also requires a transaction to mount your wallet to a node. Jesus fucking Christ literally any shitcoin on the market is vastly superior to this shit.
You have no come back. YOU ARE JUST FUCKING WRONG. I cannot wait to see whatever dumb fucking come back you have though. This will be fun.
>USD has lost over 20% of its value due to inflation in the last 10 years
Bitcoin lost 44% in the last month
>but is considered by most people to be a superior store of value
Only by retarded boomers (not the 30 year old kind).
samefag confirmed
i refuse to believe 2 people are this thick
>DAI is a better store of value than BTC
lmao wut
forget USD for a sec,
why the fuck would ANYONE want to have DAI?
>0 adoption
>always 1-2% off the peg
DAI has been 1.01 / 1.02 for a week now
so anyone who bought / accepted it (lol) in the last week
(when the shit mechanism they have finally kicks in / brings it down to 0.99/98 again)
is going to lose 2-4% for nothing
or if they had to cash out
(since nobody accepts it, they would) at sub $1 prices before it corrects, they lose 1-4%
>fees only slightly lower than CC's
this is ON TOP of losing 3%/y to shitty inflation
(a lot of people say actual inflation is closer to 5-6% because of rapid price increases but whatever I'll be generous)
>i refuse to believe 2 people are this thick
This guys a fucking absolute fucking moron.
people who actually use BTC as a 'store of value'
have done very well for the last 9 years
the only people who are losing money are speculators buying the hype train and selling the bottom
(Bitcoin cant help being the best thing that everyone wants to own)
you are beyond help if you think USD, or any shitcoin peg is a better store of value
so you ARE that thick?
thx got it
>have done very well for the last 9 years
False, only people who got in roughly 4 years ago are still in the green and that is only likely if they tethered up to an actual store of value like TETHER.
Next stupid fucking point.
>thx got it
Dude you are just wrong deal with it.
>why the fuck would ANYONE want to have DAI?
It's the only stablecoin that can't be locked, more volatile peg is the price to pay for it.
It's nothing compared to crypto volatility
>people who actually use BTC as a 'store of value' have done very well for the last 9 years
That's proof it's not a store of value.
>It's the only stablecoin that can't be locked, more volatile peg is the price to pay for it.
>It's nothing compared to crypto volatility
DAI save my ass during this bear market. Its one of the best stores of value out there. It literally turns ETH into a coin that can self tether at a moments notice with no need for more than one wallet, an exchange or anything.
DAI is fucking insane.
Not only that but DAI fucking pays you to help maintain its peg. So you earn value for storing value in it.
Anyone who is dumb as fuck enough to believe BTC is a store of value dense and dumb as fucking hell.
like BTC
your stupidity is trending upwards
when it should be going down like USD
cbs typing in detail how wrong you are
so let's do a quick-fire round
>4 years
wrong, weirdly specific lol
2009-mid2017 hodlers are all in the green
>only stable coin that can't be locked
so? if you're just trading between cryptos
(which is DAI's only use)
then nobody cares
big gov doesn't like it when you fund projects they dont like - eg Wikileaks
but that would require actual adoption lol
>volatile peg is the price to pay for it
and short term BTC volatility is the price to pay for
>escaping inflation (long term)
>permisionless control of my own wealth
>making huge returns
(if you don't stupidly buy the top of a price bubble)
>thats proof it's not a store of value
SoV's definition:
"An asset should only be considered a store of value if it is stable against future purchasing power"
by this logic only gold is a store of value,
since USD loses purchasing power every year
BTC isnt a perfect store of value yet
but its more analogous to gold than USD/DAIshit is
>BTC is a store of value dense and dumb as fucking hell.
sure pal,
give me a call when DAI millionaires are making the news
>give me a call when DAI millionaires are making the news
>by this logic only gold is a store of value
I mean, gold is a pretty good store of value man.
Mental gymnastics here are impressive though. So you are telling me a store of value can go from 20k to 800 dollars randomly sometimes.
Cool story bro.
>YOOESSDEE grate s-stoar of valyoo
>b-beecoz 1 YOOESSDEE olways = 1 YOOESSDEE
Your btc bags must be really heavy
Let me get this straight
>this year, you've been using a dApp running on a smart contract platform to transfer $ value in a stable and trustless way; something that was not possible last year.
>you believe that crypocurrency has no utility over USD and therefore can't serve as a store of value.
>Let me get this straight
Hey did you know you made absolute zero sense. The store of value meme was just an extension of the hodl meme. It was just a method to get people to safely dump their bags on fucking morons like yourself.
Honestly I am kind of done at this point.
1 post by this ID
Sure dude you are not the same faggot from a second ago... Hey everyone lets welcome the new rational person just stepping into this fucking dumpster fire.
Basic logic indicates highly volatile assets are shitty stores of value. It doesn't matter if its crypto or not.
you do realize you're outnumbered sperg?
most people know the USD / inflation is a scam,
especially in crypto communities
>goes into community that mostly believes X
>someone else here believes X!?! it must be a trick!
Bitcoin may be a poor store of value in the short term,
but USD is way worse in the long term
>whats that? you saved up that money your whole life through thousands of hours of work?
>lemme just cut that in half over 30 years, oopsie!
>you do realize you're outnumbered sperg?
Yeah, I am out numbered by faggots who still believe in the lightning network scam and the store of value meme.
>but USD is way worse in the long term
Cool, I never made a pro fiat argument. All I said was that layer 2 solutions suck ass compared to just using another coin. You then hoped desperately I would shill a coin so you can drag out the discussion with how bad X coin was to hide the fact you are a giant dishonest faggot with no argument. Since I didn't give you the pleasure of that you ended up pretending to be multiple people and claim I am out numbered.
DAI is a superior store of value compared to Bitcoin regardless as the peg can be set to any value desired. if USD plummets DAI has mechanisms for that.
Lightning network is not possible to work in its current state either. Its basic logic. Its a kin to driving a car cross country where at any moment the roads can fucking vanish randomly as you travel. The only conditions the current solution supports is fully centralized lookup table to utilize onion routing or an environment that cannot change ever. For the same reasons you don't want a road to vanish when you drive over it on the highway.
So basically you are massively misinformed and hoping desperately to convince people to buy your heavy as fuck bags which are legit going to sub 1k levels.
I'd argue that it's a volatile asset right now because much of its 'value' is inferred from the potential it has to change contemporary models of finance (that and meme lines). However, it's likely to become more stable/incrementally more valuable as it continues to realize its potential. If you're looking for something that provides gains without any risk, you'll be looking for a while...
>I'd argue that it's a volatile asset right now because much of its 'value' is inferred from the potential it has to change contemporary models of finance (that and meme lines).
Its always been this way and its never going to fucking change. Your argument sucks.
> However, it's likely to become more stable/incrementally more valuable as it continues to realize its potential. If you're looking for something that provides gains without any risk, you'll be looking for a while...
Its likely to stabilize as people stop using it for speculation. Which means probably fucking never. Its only going to keep fucking getting worse as alt coins surpass BTC in every way. Decentralized exchanges, fiat trading pairs, stable coins, dapps.
Look I am not going to say BTC is going to stop existing and that it wont go up in value eventually. But lightning network is sure as fuck never going to happen without being completely reworked. Layer 2 solutions are always worse than just using another coin. And BTC is going to continue to have a harder time dominating the market as everything becomes more and more schismatic.
So you are full of shit, go fuck yourself basically.
LN/state channels are being implemented by the majority of coins in the top 20, representing 2/3-3/4 of the total cryptocurrency market cap. You should perhaps consider that the devs on these coins might have a greater understanding of the subject than you do. It's basic logic.
>You should perhaps consider that the devs on these coins might have a greater understanding of the subject than you do. It's basic logic.
Sounds like bullshit. Mainly because its impossible and it fucking sucks anyway. Also a gigantic chunk of coins in the top 20 are proof of stake and have zero fucking need for a shitty solution involving state channels.
Also how the fuck do you know I am not one of these devs? You think just because its an underwater basket weaving image board adults don't post here?
I saw bullshit, I called it out, end of story.
what do you think of the tradeoffs
of Tokenized BTC on ETH/EOS/etc vs LN?
lost interest in arguing with you about DAI
you're a clear example of motivated reasoning, so w/e
I'm going to clear up LN myths though because others may be reading and hopefully they'll have their minds changed
>lightning network scam
whatever man,
easy to call something you dont understand a scam
>driving a car cross country where at any moment the roads can fucking vanish randomly as you travel
cute, but its actually like this:
>you're driving along the highway in the middle lane
>theres a car in front of you blocking your path
>you choose one of the other several available lanes/paths and proceed normally
the network topology won't actually be changing that often,
you assume it will because you've already decided LN isnt a good way to spend Bitcoin (it is)
LN is growing in terms of users, channels and liquidity
this makes it more and more preferable to just stay in the LN
until you absolutely have to withdraw to the main chain,
so people may only close channels once a week or perhaps much less
the whole point of my post (I'm OP) is that Lightning isnt the silver bullet to scaling
but that's due to the theoretical upper limit (which I may be wrong about) on the number of channels
>Sounds like bullshit. Mainly because its impossible and it fucking sucks anyway
you're just making declarations and fallacious comparisons without backing up anything you said
>proof of stake and have zero fucking need for a shitty solution involving state channels.
holy shit you love to talk out of your ass.
do you even know what Raiden Network is??
where did you get the idea that LN is impossible?
Your stated opinions would argue against you being a LN dev.
>I'm going to clear up LN myths though because others may be reading and hopefully they'll have their minds changed
The only thing they need to know is that dishonest people like you are giant faggots and that if the shit was functional it would already be available to everyone right now with zero failure rate.
> you choose one of the other several available lanes/paths and proceed normally
> you choose one of the other several available lanes/paths and proceed normally not realizing one of them is a dead end and since the lane behind closed because some faggot who believes in the lighting network at a power plant an heroes with a toaster in a bath tub causing a massive state wide power failure. Looks like your money is gone, Dont worry though it was only a hundred bucks.
> do you even know what Raiden Network is??
Worthless if ETH goes proof of stake?
> LN is growing in terms of users
Its bullshit nobody is using it and nobody will because you can just buy another coin and use that instead.
> where did you get the idea that LN is impossible?
Its not physically possible to do a routing system like this without having a master lookup table for all possible paths like A star path finding. So if the transaction is in transit and has no clue how to get to its destination and it hopes its just traveling in the right direction its going to be complete fucking random luck if it makes it there.
The only way the solution works is if all nodes are static. Nothing changes, nothing ever gets shut off.
Also you blatantly lied about LN being setup on the majority of coins in the top 20. There are literally only maybe 4 coins where it might be tried. And if you lied about this you are likely lieing about everything.
>Your stated opinions would argue against you being a LN dev.
My point was you don't fucking know who or what I am.
>My point was you don't fucking know who or what I am.
Frankly, I can take a guess...
>Frankly, I can take a guess...
Cool, but it change shit about my points from which I would say them user or not. So either win the debate or take a seat.
>you blatantly lied about LN being setup on the majority of coins
cointelegraph.com
>Bitcoin
>Ripple
>Ethereum
>Stellar
>BitcoinCash
>Bitcoin SV?
>Litecoin
>Monero
>NEO
>ZCash
there are very likely more since that article is old
>Worthless if ETH goes proof of stake?
wrong,
Raiden is a crucial element in their plan to shift to PoS
its arguably more important than Sharding,
and close to Plasma in its significance
""your"" points betray a limited understanding of how the LN works.
>Massive state wide power failure. Looks like your money is gone, Dont worry though it was only a hundred bucks.
Nope. My money's still there.
>Its bullshit nobody is using it
we're obviously talking about crypto,
where any kind of adoption is measured in hundreds
>nobody will because you can just buy another coin and use that instead.
like what dipshit?
if your precious DAI is so good why isn't it accepted anywhere
lightningnetworkstores.com
he obviously has a limited understanding of this,
I'm losing interest in fighting to change his mind on easily googleable things
do you have any opinions on BTC tokens?
Ripple, NEO and Stellar have native 3 second transactions.
For it to be a majority you need more than 10 right? You are a bit short for a majority there. Different Bitcoin skews too.. meh
I can see trying it on Monero
>Raiden is a crucial element in their plan to shift to PoS
It wont need it for POS because POS involves nodes that can do higher transactions per second. So much like Ripple, Neo and Stellar its pointless.
>Nope. My money's still there.
Possibly forever
I see the gears spinning a bit more right now but you guys gotta give me something meaty here because this is not convincing at all. You lied about the majority thing as well.
>if your precious DAI is so good why isn't it accepted anywhere
This isn't proving that Lightning network is functional. It also shows that simply using a faster alt coin is not a simpler more reliable solution.
sorry man, I give up
everything you just said is easily verifiably wrong
cant tell if you're a time waster, extremely stubborn or incapable of reasoning
if i had to guess, I'd say all of the above
fun while it lasted though
>do you have any opinions on BTC tokens?
They're a trade-off in terms of security compared to the main chain. However, they're more secure than leaving money on exchanges because you can bounce them through Bancor/Kyber to trade. We'll see side-chains for fast BTC transactions, but I prefer LN because it incentivizes people to run nodes.
See guys one of the main problems in the crypto space right is how much absolute levels of bullshit still exist. This market needs to dump a lot more I think. I am getting so sick of debates about intangible shit that being spewed all over the place even when its obvious that its not a functional concept. Either that or we need to start only giving a fuck about shit we can use right now.
Layer 2 solutions are always worse than just buying another coin that does what you want.
> everything you just said is easily verifiably wrong
If a coin has 3 second transactions it doesn't need a fucking lightning network to make it faster. You can list everything you want. There is no fucking advantage its obvious as fuck!
If you're talking about 0-conf, that isn't a solution, it's the absence of one. If you're talking about Ripple, shame on you.
Too bad about the brute force hackers due to usernames transmitted as clear text, and the scripting exploit tokens though