How important are smart contracts to crypto?

>If all it "wants" to be is a currency, sure.
that's all it is at the core.
>If all they "want" to do is exchange different kinds of crypto based exclusively on on-chain data, sure.
you forget voting systems and mechanisms which in a lot of cases are sufficient substitution of oracles.

>What good is a peer-to-peer currency when you still need banks, insurance companies, financial institutions, ... to do anything other than send coins/tokens back and forth?
you still gonna have all these anyhow. for a very long time. meanwhile a bitcoin bank would make a core difference in how people do banking. retaining full custody of your funds while enjoying the comfort and security of banking is a game changer.

>that's all it is at the core.
So far, yes.

>you forget voting systems and mechanisms which in a lot of cases are sufficient substitution of oracles.
Lmao, you mean reach on-chain consensus on external data?

>you still gonna have all these anyhow
Not without oracles.

>meanwhile a bitcoin bank would make a core difference in how people do banking
You need external data to do banking.

>Not without oracles.
you misunderstand, i said you will not be magically rid of insurance companies and financial institutions overnight just because you make a trustless json feed.

>You need external data to do banking.
no you don't, you just need n of m multisig wallets good key sharing schemes and deterministic smart contracts for things like ln.

>no you don't, you just need n of m multisig wallets good key sharing schemes
So, smart contracts.

>you misunderstand, i said you will not be magically rid of insurance companies and financial institutions overnight just because you make a trustless json feed.
You absolutely could.

>no you don't
Oh yes you do.

>you just need n of m multisig wallets
That's LITERALLY how oracles work.

Congratulations on reverse engineering oracles in an attempt to discredit oracles. I guess.

>That's LITERALLY how oracles work.
no

This.

uhm not really, you don't actually need smart contracts for n of m multisig, that's just one way to implement it flexibly. but again we are still talking about the smart contract capabilities bitcoin has not even at ethereum let alone oracles and shit.

>That's LITERALLY how oracles work.
wtf... no it's literally how multisig wallets work. you know things that have predated the concept of oracles by years.

Well let's ask Vitalik:
>instead of a long-running contract being run directly on the blockchain, all funds that are intended to go into the contract would instead go into an M-of-N multisig address controlled by a set of specialized entities called "oracles"
blog.ethereum.org/2014/07/22/ethereum-and-oracles/

yes oracles may _use_ multisig wallets for staking. it is not exactly a requirement. it's just one way to do it.

post body or stfu

And oracles work in that way.

You're not very smart are you?

>oracles may _use_ multisig wallets for staking
The fuck are you blabbering about.
Oracles use external data to cause m of n multisig wallets into triggering transactions.

Also, why did you switch IDs?

bitcoin already has everything rolled out to revolutionize banking as it is. everything done and released up and running. and it's not fucking happening. at all. and the reason for that i belive is that we are choked to death in shitcoins and competing projects. while it's good to have competing ideas prove themselves and letting the best solution survive and adopt for the next baseline, that's like 5-7 projects not 2000 and counting every day.

cryptos biggest problem is everybody just want's to pull a satoshi. they all want to print free money of their own. that's all anyone in the space cares about right now.

>bitcoin already has everything rolled out to revolutionize banking as it is
It has no way of incorporating external (i.e. non-deterministic) data.

>And oracles work in that way.
no. fuck you stupid asshole! multisig wallets are not oracles. and oracles are not multisig wallets. that's just one component of their operation. an underlying technology they try to build on. more over they are actually building the voting systems already implemented in smart contracts with multisig wallets. there is nothing new about oracles except the automatism and staking.

you try to pretend they are some fundamental things when all they are a matter of highly complicated convenience.

>Also, why did you switch IDs?
where?

and it doesn't need to for anything i described. private banking, vaulting / custodial services, ln (commercial payments) and atomic swaps require nothing of the sort.

What are some projects you feel are good. Or drop your telegram if you are willing to say in private

>no. fuck you stupid asshole! multisig wallets are not oracles
But oracles work by using external data to trigger multisig wallets.

You're really really dense.

>it doesn't need to for anything i described
If crypto wants to do any kind of banking/insurance/other financial product, it's going to need to incorporate external (i.e. non-determinstic) data.

>But oracles work by using external data to trigger multisig wallets.
and how the fuck would that make multisig wallets oracles? like you claimed you stupid fuck?

multisig wallets are not fucking oracles end of the story. we don't really need oracles for shit except for decentralized gambling.

>You're really really dense.
no man you are denser than a fucking neutron star.

>If crypto wants to do any kind of banking/insurance/other financial product, it's going to need to incorporate external (i.e. non-determinstic) data.
i just told you 3 times clearly and explicitly hy that is false. we got everything to make this happen already. oracles are good for shit like sports betting and that's pretty much all.

>and how the fuck would that make multisig wallets oracles?
lmao, quote me where I said multisig wallets are oracles.

>i just told you 3 times clearly and explicitly hy that is false
No you haven't.
In order to work as a bank/insurance company/financial institution, you need to work with external data (stock prices, debt figures, weather inputs, ...).

and here is the final nail in the coffin of we getting rid of banks":

the most important thing banks do is lend. this requires negative balances. it makes zero sense to take out a loan covered by a crypto asset collateral in the overwhelming ratio of cases. for lending to work you need a trustful legal contract and a legal system to enforce it. that's how lending is actually useful. the banks can do this on a small scale and short term with futures contracts that's true. and also true that for this you may not even need banks. but for real actual lending you need them. there is no way to enforce fulfillment of a negative balance by code in the crypto world when anyone can just make a thousand new wallet in a minute.

so i'm not saying outright that oracles are useless they are pretty fucking cool but for now they are like shiny toys we don't really need.

>so i'm not saying outright that oracles are useless they are pretty fucking cool but for now they are like shiny toys we don't really need.
like crypto

>lmao, quote me where I said multisig wallets are oracles.

here you stupid cuck
>>you just need n of m multisig wallets
>That's LITERALLY how oracles work.
>Congratulations on reverse engineering oracles in an attempt to discredit oracles. I guess.

you are explicitly implying that multisig wallets are just a derivation of oracles. when it's the other way around. and no the usecase of multisig wallets is a great superset of the use case of oracles. which is why i said you don't actually need oracles for most things.

>that's how they work = that's what they are
You are a brainlet of the absolute highest order.

Now address the other point in my post: In order to work as a bank/insurance company/financial institution, you need to work with external data (stock prices, debt figures, weather inputs, ...).

you are right of course the developed nations don't need crpyto and countries that do need them are all shitholes with no computers no mining no culture of information systems.

we will need crypto very fucking soon tho that would be my guess.

>Congratulations on reverse engineering oracles in an attempt to discredit oracles. I guess.

you can't get out of this one. this is the most retarded sentence i read on Jow Forums today and then you clung to it after on mutliple occasions.

>you can't get out of this one.
Oracles bring external data to m of n multisig wallets. I was assuming you were aware of this fact.

But apparently you seem to think banking and financial products in general do not require external (i.e. non-deterministic) data, so you're a lot dumber than I could ever imagine.

>Now address the other point in my post: In order to work as a bank/insurance company/financial institution, you need to work with external data (stock prices, debt figures, weather inputs, ...).
i have addressed it multiple times

>>You need external data to do banking.
>no you don't, you just need n of m multisig wallets good key sharing schemes and deterministic smart contracts for things like ln.

>uhm not really, you don't actually need smart contracts for n of m multisig, that's just one way to implement it flexibly. but again we are still talking about the smart contract capabilities bitcoin has not even at ethereum let alone oracles and shit.

what is so hard to understand on this?
>we are still talking about the smart contract capabilities bitcoin has
do you fucking understand? you don't even need ethereum to do crypto banking. you don't need external data, you don't strictly need off chain operations they are a matter of convenience and or scaling.

>But apparently you seem to think banking and financial products in general do not require external (i.e. non-deterministic) data, so you're a lot dumber than I could ever imagine.
they don't fucking need it for anything we need them to do for us. all they need to provide is security and convenience. and for that we got everything.

why are you so fucking clueless?

>i have addressed it multiple times
You have absolutely not.

How does Bitcoin incorporate external data for financial products?

>>You need external data to do banking.
>no you don't, you just need n of m multisig wallets good key sharing schemes and deterministic smart contracts for things like ln.
>uhm not really, you don't actually need smart contracts for n of m multisig, that's just one way to implement it flexibly. but again we are still talking about the smart contract capabilities bitcoin has not even at ethereum let alone oracles and shit.
Smart contracts =/= oracles you brainlet.

ETH for instance does smart contracts without external (i.e. non-deterministic) data all day long.

>they don't fucking need it for anything
Then how would Bitcoin know what the price of a certain stock on a certain date was?

>How does Bitcoin incorporate external data for financial products?
jesus fuck what financial products are you talking about? we need the banks to provide safety for the average user and convenience in payments. that is the core of everything. if you have reached the level where credit cards are replaced by your phone and you can pay with bitcoin just as fast and easy but also in a trustless and secure manner then you can start talking shit about tokenizing securities (which is a fucking joke and brings trust right back to crypto where it doesn't belong).

>Smart contracts =/= oracles you brainlet.
i never said they were, where the fuck did i say anything stupid like that, you are the one that says retarded shit like that.

>Then how would Bitcoin know what the price of a certain stock on a certain date was?
doesn't need to, not for banking. that's for sure. 90% of the banks clients just receive payment and spend on groceries. that's the extent of their banking. and bitcoin right now can't even do that without introducing new risks and technical complications.

>jesus fuck what financial products are you talking about?
You do know what "investments" are right? They're the backbone of all financial products.
You also do know that basic financial products like loans and insurance depend greatly on external (i.e. non-deterministic) data like age, income, assets, ...

>i never said they were
Then don't post a rebuttal about smart contracts when talking about how external data gets into the blockchain.

>doesn't need to, not for banking. that's for sure
AAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>90% of the banks clients just receive payment and spend on groceries
And you think their money actually sits in their account unused, waiting to be withdrawn by the owner?
You are so fucking clueless it's absolutely adorable.

>You do know what "investments" are right?
why would you use crypto for a centralized trustful legal contract (security)? that makes no sense. especially not a priority now.

>Then don't post a rebuttal about smart contracts when talking about how external data gets into the blockchain.
all i said is we need multisig wallets to do banking and we have them already (they don't even need smart contracts they could just be data structures used by the protocol). then you went on wailing about oracles.

>And you think their money actually sits in their account unused, waiting to be withdrawn by the owner?
that's the point, the very reason why we need crypto in the first place. because your deposit is no longer yours. but with bitcoin banking it will remain in your full custody. the bank only providing signatory service for the most part and be your lightning hub. it will probably also let you participate in the ln pool but that's again a legal contract. as crypto doesn't deal with nor can enforce negative balances. only the legal system can.

>why would you use crypto for a centralized trustful legal contract (security)?
You wouldn't, lmao.

>all i said is we need multisig wallets to do banking
And external data.
Don't forget about the external data.

>that's the point, the very reason why we need crypto in the first place. because your deposit is no longer yours
Well just keeping your funds somewhere for you to use is the "currency" use case of crypto. This is the one use case crypto has had since 2008.
We're talking about financial products like loans, insurance, investments, etc.

>You wouldn't, lmao.
but stocks and every paper asset is just that.
tokenizing them and trading them in a trustless decentralized way does not change their nature. it may remove brokerages from the game. but that's it.

>And external data.
>Don't forget about the external data.
i didn't forget i explicitly said we don't need that for anything else than sports betting and other sorts of gambling.

>Well just keeping your funds somewhere for you to use is the "currency" use case of crypto. This is the one use case crypto has had since 2008.
that's my point it doesn't work for most people because it's not secure and not clean and not convenient enough for most users. adoption rates are abysmal and changing this is what crypto banks are capable of and they don't need anything not already in bitcoin for that.

>We're talking about financial products like loans, insurance, investments, etc.
i told you again and again that negative balances are not enforceable with crypto or smart contracts, this makes it superfluous on top of the legal system. not important at all right now.

>but stocks and every paper asset is just that.
Absolutely.

>tokenizing them and trading them in a trustless decentralized way does not change their nature.
Regardless of whether they are expressed in crypto or in anything else, their future state is non-deterministic.

>i didn't forget i explicitly said we don't need that for anything else
So how would Bitcoin know the price of stock X on date Y?

>they don't need anything not already in bitcoin for that.
Well they need external data connectivity.

>i told you again and again that negative balances are not enforceable with crypto or smart contracts
I'm talking about using external data in a deterministic environment to allow for mainstream smart contracts.

I just realized, you're just here to muddy the waters by posting dumb but complicated-looking bullshit.

oh and by the way if we get to the point where smart contracts are recognized by the legal system as binding as far as ownership of underlying assets of securities are concerned then we can take a step forward sure enough but still won't need oracles not for stock issuing and trading not for other collateralized securities which might be smart contracts of their own. it's all doable in a deterministic way or maybe with distributed voting in extreme cases.

fully trustless lending is a no go with crpyto, but lending against these securities may be doable albeit of limited use.

You cannot use non-deterministic data in a deterministic system (blockchain).

Thus, you need oracles to import non-deterministic data.

This paves the way for mainstream financial products powered by smart contracts.

VERY
QUANT

>So how would Bitcoin know the price of stock X on date Y?
it doesn't need to that's my point again and again and again.
you gonna use the market. the market determines the price if your ask is met. bitcoin doesn't know it's own price either doesn't stop people from trading it obviously.

>Well they need external data connectivity.
for the tenth time: only for sports betting not for anything important

>I'm talking about using external data in a deterministic environment to allow for mainstream smart contracts.
we don't need that for banking. what we need is crpyto banks that provide good solid service with the tech already available. and a crypto friendly legal environment (which means the least possible regulation especially hoops and red tapes). the only reason i have not started my own bitcoin bank is the fucking laws that are still stuck in the 18th century make it virtually impossible even tho technically i could do it.

>you're just here to muddy the waters by posting dumb but complicated-looking bullshit
it's the simplest fucking thing, there is nothing complicated about it you brainlet.

>You cannot use non-deterministic data in a deterministic system (blockchain).
you don't want to. nor you need to. end of story.

>Thus, you need oracles to import non-deterministic data.
see above you don't want to you don't need to end of story!

>This paves the way for mainstream financial products powered by smart contracts.
that is not what we need right now what we need is adoption which comes via safe secure convenient private banking experience and commerce. this replacing the traditional legal system thing can wait a few decades easily.

>it doesn't need to that's my point again and again and again.
Of course it does.
Any kind of transaction predicated on a future stock price depends on it.

>it's the simplest fucking thing, there is nothing complicated about it you brainlet.
I said "complicated-looking".
You're spewing absolute nonsense, to be sure.

>you don't want to. nor you need to. end of story.
So how would Bitcoin know the price of stock X on date Y?

>that is not what we need right now
But it is.

Bitcoin provided peer-to-peer currency, but it is of extremely limited impact without actual peer-to-peer financial products (i.e. smart contracts).

>mainstream smart contracts are only good for sports betting
Bitcoin maximalists, everybody.

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>explicitly implying

Attached: 5A73706F-7DD6-4805-8F67-E06A47BB6B97.jpg (468x895, 85K)

Not as important as Live Contracts will be

Not as important as you think, and not in the way you think. Getting nervous about your shit link?

>Any kind of transaction predicated on a future stock price depends on it.
that's not mainstream banking for one and since stock are a centralized trustful security you are not getting anything significantly important out of trying to trade them in a decentralized trustless manner. so it's moot point.

>You're spewing absolute nonsense, to be sure.
or you are a fucking brainlet that can't understand the simplest basic terms.

>So how would Bitcoin know the price of stock X on date Y?
it doesn't need to. again i told you this you are not paying attention you are trying hard to solve a non-issue.

>Bitcoin provided peer-to-peer currency, but it is of extremely limited impact without actual peer-to-peer financial products (i.e. smart contracts).
no it's limited impact without adoption. and adoption is lacking not because of missing features and even further complications! adoption is lacking because it's not more convenient safe and secure than fiat based traditional banking!

we need to fix the user experience for simple commerce. then we can go on expanding this. oracles do nothing for the end user masses. (unless you want to play the lottery with smart contracts at all costs)

>that's not mainstream banking for one a
It's just an example of a financial product.
And stocks are a massive part of what banks do.

Other examples include the price of oil, gold, land, other currencies, etc. Any kind of asset.

>it doesn't need to
It does if it wants to handle any kind of financial product not 100% based in blockchain.

>no it's limited impact without adoption
Adoption isn't going anywhere so long as all you can do with crypto is send it back and forth.

>"Smart Contracts (SC) promise to transform automation in the financial industry, and are generating huge interest amongst financial institutions and technology providers."
t. Swift

>"Smart contracts aren't that important, haha fuck Link"
t. user

Smart contracts generated massive buzz and financial growth even when the only real working smart contracts involved ETH shitting out tokens.
Watch what happens when smart contracts enter mainstream finance.

>I'll start with my bags

Chainlink and its parent company Smartcontract have been used and namedropped by some of the world's elite financial influencers though; Swift, WEF, Capgemini, Gartner, the EU, ...
It's the premier smart contract project right now aside from ETH, so it only makes sense to start with it.

>And stocks are a massive part of what banks do.
not directly they wrap them into securities of their own (which is as centralized as it gets) you are not getting anything out of trading them at a third party and not them. it's a non issue. every fucking time either unsolvable (like lending) or a non issue.
>Any kind of asset.
there is no way to back an asset backed crypto in a decentralized or trustless way. there is simply none. it's trivial to separate the asset from the token and sell both for anyone willing to desert for short term profit. again an impossibility and non-issue!

>Adoption isn't going anywhere so long as all you can do with crypto is send it back and forth.
that's 99% of the worlds commerce. huge market that crypto could take a sizeable share from. which would bring on adoption. nothing else you need than enable users to sell shit for crpyto and buy shit with crypto and keep crypto as savings nothing else required.

show me an eth token that is not fucking worthless aside from dai! which is tied to a centralized trustful reserve banked fiat currency. dai is an important step forward, but a prime example why you don't need oracles at the end of the day.

>not directly they wrap them into securities of their own (which is as centralized as it gets) you are not getting anything out of trading them at a third party and not them. it's a non issue. every fucking time either unsolvable (like lending) or a non issue.
Cope harder with the fact that stocks for instance are a major part of financial products.

>there is no way to back an asset backed crypto in a decentralized or trustless way.
What the fuck are you talking about?
It's as simple as "price of asset X at time Y equals Z", and having this trigger whatever type of contract you have going.

>moving crypto back and forth 99% of the worlds commerce
lmao

>moving assets back and forth is 99% of the worlds commerce
You mean using currencies to buy non-currency assets?

Same old bunch of made up connections with no reflection in reality.

>dai is an important step forward, but a prime example why you don't need oracles at the end of the day.
Dai uses an oracle you absolute brainlet.

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>Cope harder with the fact that stocks for instance are a major part of financial products.
i was mainly talking about banking but the same is true for most financial services. take vanguard for example! when you buy their funds you buy their security, you don't buy any stocks. often enough they don't buy any stocks either only securities based on those stocks derivatives of derivatives. and you could tokenize all that without a single fucking oracle. not there there is much point in it... but you could.

smart contracts don't require oracles for the vast majority of financial products and services. it's that simple. only certain types of futures and options contracts would benefit from oracles but, there is not much that could be traded i a trustless decentralized manner where it would make sense where it would provide value. you could trade for example btc against ltc. boo hoo!

>It's as simple as "price of asset X at time Y equals Z", and having this trigger whatever type of contract you have going.
you don't understand i see, you can shove your price up your ass when you bought a token where the underlying asset was sold separately. you are holding air. it's worthless. since asset backed tokens can only be backed in a trustful centralized manner trading them otherwise gives no true benefits. they are the least important thing we need to tackle.

i was talking about commerce and money, this is what crypto needs to tackle first. fucking commerce and savings. if it can't there is no point to the other shit. and it's all legal trustful relationships if you think about it, there is no way to buy anything in a trustless manner with crypto.

first need to provide a system where users can spend their crypto like they can spend their fiat. only cheaper faster more safe and secure than a fucking cc. possibly more anonymous that would be a plus.

oracles are the 126th least important things for adoption.

no it doesn't the users maintain the system in a distributed way. if anyone uses json feeds they trust and automation that's not a requirement. you can do it by hand.

>no it doesn't
Yes. Yes it does.
This is hilarious.

fuck maker actually implements oracles i didn't remember that. but the point it the system would work by user voting and without automation even. all they need is incentives. oracles are convenience. not a requirement.

I want to smell a woman's ass.

Except they are literally mentioned by name you moron.

The system depends on oracles for precisely the thing you claim oracles aren't needed for.

>The reference price (ETHUSD) for the Maker system is provided via an oracle (the medianizer), which collates price data from a number of external price feeds.
developer.makerdao.com/feeds/

This is a very embarrassing moment for you.

Smart contacts are ultimately the big play for crypto. The value exchange will remain niche and not take off imo, cash is just too easy.
For smart contracts to be of value they need to be completely trustless, transparent and secure. Ethereum is inarguably number one.

Nice reading comprehension

Smart contracts are only a practical possibility since immutable ledgers (blockchain)
Immutable ledgers are immutable because they are deterministic
Mainstream banking/finance/investment/insurance/... relies heavily on non-deterministic data
Oracles allow immutable ledgers to use non-deterministic data
Therefore: oracles make smart contracts possible in mainstream banking/finance/investment/insurance/...

So far, crypto has been useful almost exclusively for creating and moving around "currency".
Adoption thereof will always be limited when you still need banks, insurancy companies, etc. to even use your money.
Hence, smart contracts will unleash the true potential of crypto.

Curtains, applause, flowers, bowing, champagne.

This very much.
With the addition that ETH is the base layer for smart contract solutions to be built upon (Vitalik's words).

B T F O
T
F
O

> ITT Jimmy Song acts like a bitch for a million posts

>Has anyone figured out how to remove human intervention from oracles? Doesn't seem possible. Which will leave it open to corruption.

If IOT sensors can be made and securely used, sure. Human intervention will be a thing of the past for certain things. AI must get better first though too.

Yep, it's fucking sad. Women are failures.

>The system depends on oracles for precisely the thing you claim oracles aren't needed for.
no actually the users are incentivized to maintain price equilibrium. without their work it wouldn't operate. that is why i say you don't need an oracle. users can get price data from anywhere.

>no actually the users are incentivized to maintain price equilibrium
And the data for the price equilibrium is provided by oracles.

You are so out of your depth it's not even funny. Go do some research you absolute buttbrain.

>Mainstream banking/finance/investment/insurance/... relies heavily on non-deterministic data
this is here you are wrong. the vast majority of operations that interest users don't require non deterministic data, and or doesn't matter where it comes from. say you want to change some btc to usd and your bank is telling you he will exchange it at 3500 but you think btc is 3600 then you say fuck off and send btc to an other exchange. that simple your bank is incentivized to find you a fair reference price.

this oracle business is totally overblown.

>the vast majority of operations that interest users don't require non deterministic data
Simply moving currency around doesn't, no.
Crypto has been able to do this for a decade now.

Pretty much everything else does.

>Hence, smart contracts will unleash the true potential of crypto.
they already are here, it's just you think we need oracles for the vast majority of shit we don't because you are a fucking retard.

current deterministic smart contracts could build a new world as it is yet nothing fucking happens. and everybody is circlejerking about which useless scamcoin will moon next.

>Simply moving currency around doesn't, no.
not just that exchanging, escrowing, vaulting, custodial services, signatory services, ultralight online wallets, ln hubs, payment channels, ring signatures, mixers, don't require it either.

>they already are here
Yes, but they are entirely limited to crypto. They can only use deterministic, on-chain data.
Hence, current smart contracts are only good for creating and moving crypto.

Outside of these two meme-tier use cases, any smart contract requires external (non-deterministic) data.

Outside of creating and moving crypto, nearly everything requires non-deterministic data.

i have told you again and again what the world need is storing (safely and securely but also in control of) crypto and spend it (fast cheap and efficient). that's all and we don't have it and we don't need any new complication for this everything is already working up and running.

crypto users are introduced to systemic risks that they are not comfortable with as it is. directly because it's the fucking wild west of informatics. all oracles do is complicate these risks and introduce new ones not even most developers could understand. if anything that would hurt adoption.

>They can only use deterministic, on-chain data.
yes and that is perfectly fine. everything else comes from user actions and signatures and transactions.

fleta

anything that doesn't happen in bitcoin isn't important

>99%

incel detected

on the other hand the most important thing doesn't happen to bitcoin. adoption!

when the user experience sucks donkey ass when you are fucking exposed at the exchanges and can't spend it anywhere locally nobody will fucking adopt it unless their fiat system is already gone and crumbled around them. this is the curse of the good times i guess.

thanks Thomas

again, Thomas. Its great to see you posting on Jow Forums. I have been thinking about bringing this up with the team.