Crypto taxes

if you never deposited the cash you should be "ok" but you should never assume you're ok because your fellow citizens can report you.

and the IRS just wants to get paid, they don't care if you bought security tokens/icos or trade on mex. if you paid tax on all income you are in their good graces.

bitcoin.tax/podcasts/5c6ef3e3c0508cad6e884212/audit-irs-cryptocurrency-bitcoin-taxes-alex-kugelman

To those who think crypto isn't beholden to tax laws: you are not correct. [37:38]

Alex: The current commissioner of the IRS is Charles Rettig, and he's a really well known practitioner in tax controversy. I know from people that know him well, that he's actually mentioned Reddit as one of the reasons that cryptocurrency enforcement is his number one enforcement priority right now.

The other person that I've seen speak a couple of times is the head of the IRS Criminal Investigation Unit. His name is Don Fort and every year he does a presentation at the National Tax Controversy and Criminal Tax Conference. The last two years cryptocurrency has been number two and number one on his list. As much as the IRS lacks the funding and the manpower that it needs for all the enforcement, the IRS CI are really, really good and they are probably best agency at dealing with cryptocurrency enforcement issues.

I really think that it's gaining steam and I think once the audits from the Coinbase summons kind of get going, I think it's going to be a really scrutinized area. I think the people who have gone through the cost and the pain of disclosing and amending returns and doing everything they can will be happy that they did in a couple of years. I think the other people are going to be sweating it out - I don't know if it's ever really worth it to be honest with you. I would recommend people do their best to get in compliance.

bitcoin.tax/podcasts/5c6ef3e3c0508cad6e884212/audit-irs-cryptocurrency-bitcoin-taxes-alex-kugelman

In summary: do your best to report your crypto gains and losses - and don't try to pull one over on the IRS. [42:36]

Alex: For people who have potential issues with past years, one is getting a consistent record and just amending your past years, so they're consistent.

For people who have the foreign account issues - let's just say, for example, had an account with Binance, and that Binance account was never reported. The IRS has disclosure programs that allow you to amend certain returns, pay the tax that you report and pay a penalty, which would be 5% of the the highest account value that you have.

For people who don't want to deal with this, I think taking evasive steps is the best way to get the worst result possible. One of the things that I learned very early in dealing with audits and tax compliance, is that you can always make things worse. I think you really just want to address it and resolve the issue while you have a good opportunity.

The trouble with not reporting crypto is that it becomes sticky to cash out later, right? I have never purchased crypto, only mined/traded what I have. Does crypto fall into the PayPal rule of sub-20k doesnt get reported to the IRS?

There are important risk-reduction strategies you can utilize to avoid a crypto audit. [28:15]

Alex: The first thing that you really want to do, is just assess; for those of you that are really worried about an audit - just assess what it is you've actually done over the years. When did you start trading, what exchanges were you on, do you have records that reflect on-ramping and off-ramping? And that's going to be your bank account statements. Do you know where you've been, what exchanges you've been on?

For foreign exchanges, there may not be as much of that AML & KYC compliance, but I really believe that you do have reporting requirements under FATCA for FBAR and something called an 8938, which if you listen to the podcast with Tyson, he kind of explains what that is. But it's basically if you have ownership of a foreign bank account or asset, you have certain reporting requirements, whether you've had income or not.

You want to make sure you at least track when you've actually exchanged crypto for cash or vice versa. That's partly because that's one of those areas where when people can get in trouble with some sort of federal investigators - because those types of transactions can be potentially considered money laundering.

For those who believe that they've used like-kind exchange rules to defer taxable gains -you should look on your tax returns to see if you filed the form 8824, which is where like kind exchanges are actually reported. That kind of goes back to the over reporting issue I was talking about before. I think that if you didn't report the actual trades that you're taking like-kind treatment for in past years, I don't know that you've actually taken like-kind treatment to be frank with you. I think, objectively, that might be viewed as just not reporting certain transactions.

You want to make sure that you address these issues sooner rather than later.

Fuck the IRS, I live in canada. and they can have a fun time trying to connect every wallet on the blockchain to a human.

I have multiple wallets for every currency i use, and every smart crypto user does too. You should be making a new address everytime you withdraw from an exchange.

If you exercise good wallet obfuscation and focus most of your trading on DEXes, you should be able to hide no matter what country you live in, off plausible deniability alone.

Seriously, they'd have to spend more resources than my portfolio is worth in order to connect me to each of my wallets. I'd love to see them try.

>The trouble with not reporting crypto is that it becomes sticky to cash out later, right?

And the massive fines when they catch you.

For example: Failing to file an FBAR can carry a civil penalty of $10,000 for each non-willful violation. But if your violation is found to be willful, the penalty is the greater of $100,000 or 50 percent of the amount in the account for each violation—and each year you didn't file is a separate violation.

That would be the penalty for having $5k worth of coins on binance and not filing an FBAR.

Two words: blockchain analytics

You can analyze the chain all you want, but good luck proving which human being that wallet actually belongs to. You would need to subpoena every exchange, every broker, every fucking convenience store owner that owns a BTC ATM. Everyone.

>inb4 hurrr every transaction is signed by your private key therefore its a signed confession
NOPE, can't prove I physically own that private key or ever had access to it.

If you pay taxes on crypto you are a literal cuck and will never make it.

fuck off IRS shill
I hope you die nigger

I'm not a cuckold so I don't pay taxes on cryptographic internet money.

BASED

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Can somebody explain to me why this is stickied? Also how do I log into my bitcoin account I paid some guy money here to buy bitcoins for me and he hasn't updated me since last Thursday I was wondering how i can see how much bitcoins I've made since then thank you

Also what if you lost your trading history??

Livecoin for instance didnt save my fucking trades

Then theres trades on dead exchanges like cryptsy and mintpal

What a clusterfuck

Bitgrail cryptopia 19800 liqui
All my history is gone there

They cannot find mt gox coins 5 years later

Also a lot of people lost their trading history on dead exchanges so they cannot report it even if they wanted to.

bitcoin.tax/podcasts/5c6ef3e3c0508cad6e884212/audit-irs-cryptocurrency-bitcoin-taxes-alex-kugelman

It is possible to substantiate your data without all of your records. [19:00]

Alex: I think the first thing is, I mean, outside of cryptocurrency and just generally in audits, how many people have complete records to support everything on their tax return from three years ago? Right? It's just not the reality.

The best source of information in a lot of these cryptocurrency clients are the clients themselves. They kind of know what they did and they can remember. There's some who take good notes and other people don't, but as you go through and ask people: what exchanges have you've been on, what type of coins, if you bought any ICOs, have you ever sold for actual US cash, and have you ever bought goods or services? As you talk through things people tend to recall what happened. We use that information and we cross check that against bank statements, as well as CSV files, to pick out what those transactions look like.

Most people have some sort of records, at least reflecting the transfer in and the transfer back out of that exchange. So you can use historical data and historical pricing information to essentially estimate what that transaction would have been. And then what we do is we provide a written statement summary of what we're doing and why we're doing it.

The other big one that we see all the time - and anybody listening to this, please hear this, do not trade for your friends on your exchange accounts - because that type of commingling causes such major problems. Essentially you are walking into those taxable gains just because you're allowing someone access to the exchange to make sales.

"You should have access to all your bank records. You should still have a lot of emails, reflecting on-ramping off-ramping, or other purchases. You should be able to kind of pull this all together.

I can understand when we have clients who come in and are early adopters and they're missing chunks of information. So I do think that in those types of circumstances, yes, I think there would be a little bit of leniency. But I don't think if you're asking, hey, I reported my gains in 2017 but I never really did it 14, 15 or 16 - I don't think that's going to be viewed very favorably."

I do and i have no record of the trades I made but I dont care, never cared about anything.
t. Sasuke

jew psyops thread detected

Will I be okay if I just pay taxes when I cash out on profits. I do not want to pay double or triple tax on this crypto-crypto bullshit.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
The IRS can barely deal with endless identity fraud because the SS system is a shitshow that has more holes in it than a wall made out of swiss cheese and you think they are going to prosecute anything more than 0.1% of unpaid crypto taxes.
Delusional bootlicking faggot.
They will prosecute a few high-profile cases to scare the tax cattle but the vast majority will go uncollected. Enjoy sucking off the tax scam while you still can, faggot. We are coming for you and when we get you there will be no mercy.

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Lying piece of shit. You don't even file FBAR if it's under 10k faggot.

To add on. I buy my crypto with debit card off of Coinbase. There is full record of how much money o spent on crypto. Can I not just calculate the amount I spent and minus that from amount earned and pay taxes on the net?

So you work for bitcoin.tax and are scaring people into using your shitty service. Seriously hope you get anal cancer.

Not legally. Maybe ((they)) never notice or realize you did that though. Who knows.

"The current commissioner of the IRS is Charles Rettig, and he's a really well known practitioner in tax controversy. I know from people that know him well, that he's actually mentioned Reddit as one of the reasons that cryptocurrency enforcement is his number one enforcement priority right now.

The other person that I've seen speak a couple of times is the head of the IRS Criminal Investigation Unit. His name is Don Fort and every year he does a presentation at the National Tax Controversy and Criminal Tax Conference. The last two years cryptocurrency has been number two and number one on his list. As much as the IRS lacks the funding and the manpower that it needs for all the enforcement, the IRS CI are really, really good and they are probably best agency at dealing with cryptocurrency enforcement issues."

Yes 10k my bad.

No, that's just where the podcast with Alex the tax lawyer is from. Idc about bitcoin.tax or what service you use. There's also cointracking, beartax, and others. Or you can do it yourself but that's a pain.

so if I trade on exchanges that don’t require KYC, how are they going to catch me?

IF ((they)) audit you, they will catch you during the field exam. Blockchains are public ledgers.

A crypto audit is very likely to be a field exam - and it's important to hire a good rep. [11:00]

Alex: It's very likely going to be a field exam, which means you're going to have a revenue agent - and those are kind of the best of the best auditors for an IRS audit. And remember - an IRS audit is a civil matter. It is not criminal at this point. Again, it's unlikely that it will become criminal. It is, however, the highest level of audit you're going to get.

If you're going to hire a representative, which you have every right to do, you should contact that person, let them know what's going on and probably have them interface with the auditor. You should receive, as part of the opening notice or letter, the information document request - which is identifying what things to bring for the auditor. Also, it'll tip to what topics might be important. For example the typical things you're going to see will be bank statements, financial or asset account statements, which I view as requesting exchange statements or exchange CSV files. Any documents that show the cost basis for your cryptocurrency trades.

Move to Portugal for 3 years to remove the ordinarily resident shit from Ireland and take it from there.

Hopefully there's still no taxation there but I'll be hiring some tax experts regardless.

Yeah, your copypasta doesn't refute anything I just said, idiot. Shill the tax collection scam elsewhere.

No shit some high-level boomer functionary is going to pay lip service to the "problem" of crypto. I look forward to him and his crack team of pencil pushers getting bogged down in a quagmire auditing cryptomillionaires who can and will stretch their pathetic resources to the brink before fucking off to SE Asia.
There will be a few high profile cases to try and keep the sheep in line but if you fall for it you are an absolute retard who doesn't understand basic statistics.
They. Cannot. Catch. Even. One. Percent.

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you should only be worried if u traded above 10K in value

Fucking. BASED.

had $1,300 loss, wrote it off.

>Fuck the IRS, I live in canada

So the CRA will be the one fucking you.

Redpilled

So how do you cash out then? You're telling me you would just transfer 200k to your bank and not worry about anything?

it was in the news last week than some min wage chump just straight lied on his tax form and got a 500k tax return and it wasn't flagged or anything and he actually received it,

so I actually have no confidence in the competency of the irs
they don't have the resources to against anything but the biggest of the fish to fry...

FUCK THE IRS AND FUCK THE CRA!!

Enjoy living every day knowing there’s a small but significant chance you’ll get a huge tax bill in the mail from the IRS.

Unless you only made like 5k in which case shut up

oi. what's stopping me from throwing funds into monero to mask a money trail?

we don't want solutions on how to pay fucking taxes, we want solutions on how to fucking avoid taxes you sick fucks

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I HODL for a year and then I don't need to pay taxes. Helps that I'm not a degenerate gambler.

I’m not reporting damn thing until I sell into cash

fucking based.

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i didnt even report. i lost so much money last year with bad trades the IRS can suck my fucking ass on getting anything except their W2 illegal collection. also its a common misconception that you have to report all of your like kind crypto trades. if youre an idiot and daytrade on coinbase or gemini or bittrex then youre fucked but if youre on binance or kucoin, huobi, etc. then youre fine and just report the difference between your initially bought eth and your final profit

I'm concerned about this too. I'm not sure what the tax implications are for trading between cryptos. My first thought is that its none of the governments damn business. Like if you traded 65 llamas to your neighbor for 13 horses. I also don't see a way to cash out a chunk of crypto without alerting the feds of your whole stack. I do wonder what will happen when crypto bros are trying to buy homes with crypto instead of switching to fiat to buy real property. Any input on this topic or tips & tricks would be appreciated.

I lost about 85% of my portfolio trading cryptos is the IRS going to come for me?

>Like if you traded 65 llamas to your neighbor for 13 horses
Bartering is taxable so that's also a taxable transaction.

I still need to file my 2017 taxes and plan to in a few weeks. Can I file “like-kind” for that year? I know you can’t 2018 forward. Please say yes... I reinvested and lost everything in 2018, never “cashed out”

IRS doesn't cone for losses, it comes for gains. if your losses exceeded $3k you can roll the remainder over to next year.

don't you guys have bitcoin ATMs over there?

i've used these and day trading to finance my alcoholism. totally anonymous and don't have to worry about taxes

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If you report your losses and you have a regular job, you can save $3k on your employment tax, you dummies. You should report.

At this point, what ISN'T taxable?

Ist Deutschland das einzige Land, was sich in Sachen Crypto-Steuern entjudet hat mit der Langzeitaspekulation?

> Create a coin that was agreed to be worth 1 dollar each.
> trade it back and forth at fair market value for awhile.
> The coins value drastically decreases with each consecutive transaction causing everyone to lose a large sum of profit from those transactions.
> Since every trader started with the same amount of each coin all traders lost a lot of money long term.
> The government now owes them all 3k in reported loses for the next 10 years. Very sad situation indeed.

3k isnt worth putting myself on an IRS watch list. Fucking glowniggers.

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No, nobody has shit on their emails. Emails from exchange don't contain inter-altcoins tradings, so there's no fucking way to know. I think *some* may include the amount of BTC that is about to be withdrawn or deposited but there's others that don't disclose this information. So when the retarded exchange gets "hacked" and you lose information when you wake up next morning and you didn't save shit specially ages ago when exchanges were the wild wild west, how the fuck are you going to report anything accurate.

Can I convert crypto to USD/fiat in coinbase and then trickle it out to my "real" bank slowly over time and only pay taxes on a lower income bracket (and potentially in a different, less tax cucked neighboring state?)

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Should I report if I only made crypto to crypto losses?

Unless you have cashed out there is no reason to report anything.

So fucking what, we are talking about crypto-to-crypto trades in some shithole exchange that is now dead. People that daytrade crypto could have thousands, up to 10,000+s of tiny trades since crypto allows up to 0.xxxxxxxx subdivisions, so it is insanity to deal with that bullshit.

>You're telling me you would just transfer 200k to your bank and not worry about anything?

You cant cash out that much anyway. If you do you will get trapped in fiat forever. Your bank will never let you spend it to buy crypto ever again. And they wont let you take the money from the bank either.

I don't know, honestly this entire situation is pretty shit anyway. I want to pay taxes but the way this is playing out I am scared shitless my poor ass is going to get nailed for some stupid amount of money for no fucking reason... I am so fucking broke right now.

I fucking refuse to become homeless over this shit. last year I made less than 10k easily and I am barely scraping by. its pretty much survival to avoid dealing with this shit.

lol you guys are all fucked. i've been warning you about this shit since 2016 and you don't listen. you keep buying public ledger coins. don't you understand the jews run everything? if they can find it they will tax it. It's privacy coins or bust now.

I don't believe it. Please post the IRS codes on taxing barter transactions. If there is no use of currency it cannot be taxable because there is no established value.

I lost my crypto in a boating accident. Sorry!

irs.gov/newsroom/four-things-you-should-know-if-you-barter

Tax implications. Bartering is taxable in the year it occurs. The tax rules may vary based on the type of bartering that takes place. Barterers may owe income taxes, self-employment taxes, employment taxes or excise taxes on their bartering income.

Reporting rules. How you report bartering varies depending on which form of bartering takes place. Generally, if you are in a trade or business you report bartering income on Form 1040, Schedule C, Profit or Loss from Business. You may be able to deduct certain costs you incurred to perform the bartering.

Paid mine, IRS took my money already. Feels bad man. At least I won't have to worry now.

>crypto taxes
jokes on you, IRS fag. I only had 10s of thousands of dollars in losses to claim this year! hahahahaha

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Same. I fucking lost everything because of this taxation fucking criminal scheme! Man, fuck the government and anyone that works for a tax authority. Fucking criminals. Who knows how many people have died due to stress of paying taxes. Imagine how many seniors and old people they harass every day. They're so fucking bad that there's literally an economy around calling people and pretending to be a tax authority so you could get money. That's how fucking greedy and evil this system is. I hope whoever is responsible for high taxation burns in hell forever.

>you must report the fair market value of the products or services.
As determined by whom? My determination (as a reasonable buyer as determined by me) is that the fair market value is $0. It says to hire an a licensed (By the government) appraiser to determine fair market value [That a (((REASONABLE buyer would pay)))] for you to pay (fiat) tax on. I'm wondering if you are required to hire a certified professional appraiser or if you can determine the value (In fiat) yourself. If you are required to hire an appraiser then you live in an authoritarian regime and its time to GTFO. This all falls apart under scrutiny. A law that is unenforceable is no law at all. It will take the pencil pushers years to sort this all out. If you are involved in crypto you are an enemy of the established financial/regulatory structure. "Fair Market Value" is not my new favorite cringy economic term. Fucking glowniggers.

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Is now* my new favorite cringy economic term.

Wait people are reporting losses without even cashing out? That's what it sounds like from some of these posts

Crypto to crypto is a taxable event so it's easy to report losses without "cashing out".

No one is reporting shit crypto to crypto. Again, potentially billions of microtransactions in subdivided 0.xxxxxxxx tokens, across a pletora of exchanges across a pletora of different shitcoins, many exchanges and shitcoins now dead. It's humanly impossible to keep track. If they want people to report their shit they will need to change laws which aren't scary and make people hold forever until some country that has reasonable laws is willing to take their taxes to buy a McMansion in 10 years when 1 BTC is worth $millions.

This.
There is a problem with the laws. Not the money (crypto).

Look I agree the laws are fucking retarded, the expectation to report every single transaction is pure stupidity and probably becuase they don't understand how cumbersome this is.

However, I don't want the IRS to come back to me in a year and claim I owe a massive tax penalty. I already lost 85% of my investment my listining to meme threads on here but my principal was only 9k and I have a full time job so I'll recover.

Better to be safe and compliant. Then get fucked by penalties.

What if i dont want? Crypto to crypto only and now have less then before. You think i will tell them to get in debt? Some exchanges even scammed me...

>No one is reporting shit crypto to crypto.
Law abiding citizens are. There are many of us that are law abiding. We also aren't teens or neets playing with lunch money.

>It's humanly impossible to keep track.
Criminal cope. I've had no problem keeping track.

What do you do if you had stuff on an exchange that died and disappeared? Or if the exchange deleted all your records?

If all you use is chink exchanges without any verification you're never going to get audited

So if I bought $1000 worth of btc in 2018 and exchanged that for a shitcoin that I plan to hold for years to come, I report it this year and the year I cash out or back into btc? That's retarded

reporting losses in sizeable amounts increases your risk of getting audited since its a popular way to decrease tax.my w2 ended up being an owe year because of the obamacare health premium bullshit so i was negative anyway. IRS isnt coming after me and even if they do look at my trading history theyll throw it in the trash because every single coin i had ended up in negative value. im just taking it on the chin and moving forward. im not dealing with the IRS, period.

You can look at the blockchain and correlate transactions to dates and values.

Correct. If you bought $1000 worth of btc and the value went down to $900 and you traded it for eth then you have $100 of loses. If the value rose before the trade then you have a gain. If there was no change, you still report it on form 8949 but you don't owe taxes on the trade.

>You can look at the blockchain and correlate transactions to dates and values.
I guess, though that's a huge pain in the ass.

the year you cash out
hodling can't be taxed

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Bump~

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WTF is all this FBAR bullshit? I reported all my capital gains/losses ever since I started investing in crypto...is that not enough?

If your investment exceeded $10,000 combined on FOREIGN exchanges you need to file an FBAR.

Penalty is $10,000 according to my CPA for not filing an FBAR.

I'm curious how they will handle foreign accounts that fluctuated in value above and then below the $10k mark. Do you still need an fbar if the account is currently worth less than 10k?

>Penalty is $10,000 according to my CPA for not filing an FBAR.
Or 50% of the value of the accounts if you willfully didn't file the FBAR.

>I'm curious how they will handle foreign accounts that fluctuated in value above and then below the $10k mark. Do you still need an fbar if the account is currently worth less than 10k?
If the total combined value of all foreign accounts was worth more more than $10k at any point in time then you have to file.

At what point in time do they calculate the 50% value? Is it when they discover you failed to file or when the account is worth over 10k?

No its 50% of the ATH value of the account you dumb fuck