Bitcoin is broken

Less concerned about market cap and price right now then the vision of creating a superior money.

But even so, this is the BTC investment plan from their own wiki. #2 is no longer true.

Attached: investing.png (1600x246, 29K)

But why? Is it just acceptance of the tech limitations?

BCH or some other network in the future can have a fixed supply as well, without breaking transactions.

it's still faster than a bank transfer, especially overseas
it offers protection from chargebacks

>People will buy it as a store of value / muh digital gold / inflation shield
and this relates back to my post , because people treat it as a store of value/primary medium of exchange, BTC remains king

All of your bullshit is refuted with three letters, which I'm going to greentext because I like green
>S
>O
>V
Now fuck off

BTC absolutely has some useful properties, but a lot less than were touted in 2013.

>it offers protection from chargebacks

Thats true, but chargebacks of bank or large wire transfers are a side issue. Chargebacks is most relevant to businesses who sell products to customers.

So its a superior store of value, but not medium of exchange? The medium of exchange vision is gone?

Just spent 43 cents to send $15 totally fucking broken

I'm actually pretty new to crypto, so I don't want to spout an uneducated opinion.

However, after you take away all of your initial points (and also this ) what's the only thing BTC has going for it? There will only ever be 21 million. I think that's the only thing keeping it attractive at this point.

>it offers protection from chargebacks

In other words, it offers zero consumer protection. This feature mainly benefits scammers and unscrupulous businesses. Bitcoin can't undo history regardless of the circumstances in which the transaction was made, which means that even if the transactions are fraudulent or made under duress, the transaction can't be reversed.

I think your right. That's the current way things look.

This is definitely a feature not a bug. Many businesses (guns, casinos, etc) deal with chargebacks and absurd fees just because they are unpopular.

Also one of the strongest arguments for the value of crypto is that it drastically reduces enforcement costs of transactions. Think about how much money that costs, and how much of that you pay for each time you swipe a card.

Lightning nodes won't be run by normies. They'll be run by 'credit card' companies that partner with merchants and offer traditional fraud and theft prevention/recovery services

First off, your "three" proposed benefits of bitcoin are just three different ways of saying one proposed benefit of bitcoin -- that it would be the super internet money / medium of exchange of the future.

You are correct that high transaction fees, low transaction capacity, and limitations of the lightning network mean that bitcoin probably will not become the super internet money of the future.

But you're wrong to believe that this eliminates the value proposition for bitcoin.

Yes bitcoin is a dinosaur when it comes to speed and fees. If you think the crypto with the fastest speed and lowest fees will be the most valuable, then maybe you should put all of your money in XRP, which has ridiculously fast speed and ridiculously low fees.

But the thing is, there's not really any reason why XRP should be worth $0.20 or $20; here's why:
>prices and salaries are always denominated in fiat (e.g. dollars), and that's not going to change in our lifetimes
>anyone can make a clone of XRP that does the same thing or better
>therefore there's no reason to hold XRP because it's not special
>therefore the best use case for XRP is to send payments that you immediately convert into store of value cryptos or fiat that you can actually spend

The market cap of bitcoin (if we count all 21 million) is currently ~1/66th the market cap of gold. There's a lot of room to grow there.

Unlike gold or other commodities, the scarcity of bitcoin is mathematically guaranteed.

Moving bitcoin costs the same amount of money whether you're moving $100 or $1,000,000. You never pay taxes and you don't have to ask government permission to move your money across borders.

Most people have heard of bitcoin. People can be found in every country who will buy your bitcoin at market value or close to it.

More and more people see bitcoin as a store of value / competitor to gold. Young people would rather buy bitcoin than gold.

Attached: 1504452022251.jpg (916x720, 408K)

Bitcoin maximalism stems from deep-seated insecurities about the underlying, unscalable tech. Adults can calmly respond to criticisms. Maximalists' signature move is to freak out, brigade, and try to shout down all perceived naysayers, which betrays their insecurity. Long gone are the days of "free market money".

Years and years of dithering over hardcoded block size limits, still no privacy, still no fungibility, still not a safely usable financial instrument. Pernicious, toxic garbage.

Bitcoin wasn't even a great innovation in 2008. How anybody believed a blockchain could scale to be the infrastructure of global finance is pure delusion. The failure to admit and address its fundamental flaws, over so many years, is the true hallmark of that project.

Attached: monero_vs_other_cryptos.jpg (2000x2000, 371K)

>(continued)
Were you investing during the commodities boom of 2011? Gold, wheat, and copper doubled, silver and oil tripled, it was nuts.

Something like that is going to happen again. And when it happens, they won't be buying XRP, they'll be buying BTC.

Attached: 35989444_471309299975569_3304648146503598080_n.jpg (480x360, 22K)

> are just three different ways of saying one

They are 3 different advantages that come from the same feature.

> If you think the crypto with the fastest speed and lowest fees will be the most valuable

I don't think that will give it high prices, but I want the money of the future, not high prices for a token I hold. If a coin stays valued at the current year equivalent of $1 forever thats great.

> Moving bitcoin costs the same amount of money whether you're moving $100 or $1,000,000

True, and thats important.

I completely agree that BTC offers a powerful store of value propositions. I just don't see why that is coming at the expense of the medium of exchange properties, and why the layer 2 solutions are garbage.

BCH (for example) offers the same supply and prevention against inflation. Granted, their dev's and community seem less stable.

So rather than having finance institutions issue credit and settle transfers on BTC network, they introduced another layer 2, for the layer 3 of finance institutions?

WE NEED MORE LAYERS.

Attached: VD09afj.jpg (645x729, 64K)

> Bitcoin maximalism stems from deep-seated insecurities about the underlying, unscalable tech

I think you might be on to something. I never thought about it as an insecurity, but your right. They never tout their tech, its always appeal to authority and name calling.

Many often tout Bitcoin's brand name as the value proposition even though it's not copyrighted/trademarked. With real world luxury brands, you at least get "social proof" and some utility for buying their products, but what value proposition does Bitcoin have besides being a get-rich-quick scheme? When that value proposition no longer applies, you're left with nothing.

what a useless wall of fud

wtf it wasnt intended for large transactions and cant be used because hub liquidity issues and routing difficulty.

if it works, then fine with ln you are still in control of your funds a transaction either goes through or not only inattentive hubs can lose bitcoins to each other for now.

bitcoin is the only trustless permissionless publicly audited ledger that is secure. it has very few other redeeming qualities. being deflationary decreases its usefullness as money. modern economic theory in a nutshell.

Bitcoin is a layer one payment network for large transactions. You don't pay with gold bars at a coffee shop. Layer two payments like Litecoin and layer N payment networks will be used for smaller transactions. Atomic swaps are the future. There is no need to have just 1 single coin.

Btc is a fucking china scam and delusional bag holders are victims of that scam lmao

This is a good thread. Too much shit on biz in pnd scam shilling. You're right to question the merits of Bitcoin - and I agree that the original founding principles no longer apply.
BTC developers don't want to make any changes to the Bitcoin protocol because they see the Bitcoin protocol as something that should never change. That's their opinion, and because Satoshi is likely dead, I think they have a right to it. But that doesn't stop future engineers from improving upon it - Bitcoin left us with a protocol, and it's up to the smart people in the world to make a better version.

In a few years or so, we will see a better form of Bitcoin. I'm not talking about BSV/BCH fork scam shit, I'm talking about an entirely new project that takes the Bitcoin protocol and improves it in every way possible. There is demand for it, so it will happen. I am a PhD student at a major research university, and I can promise you that it is an ongoing research effort at many universities across the globe. There are ways to scale Nakamoto (PoW) consensus without giving up security. There are ways to make ASICs obsolete without changing algos every other month. There are ways to run smart contracts locally and post execution proofs on chain, and there are ways to extend Bitcoin script so 'smart contracts' become viable.
Bitcoin will always be there as a sort of 'digital gold.' But I promise you, by the next bullrun we'll finally see some practical and scalable cryptocurrencies. And at that point, I strongly believe decentralized money will start to change the world as we know it.

Don't waste your time user. These people think that the cost of storing data in a decentralized system forever should be free. They dont understand that complicated solutions like segwit and L2 are the result when you put the importance of decentralization first.

These guys complain about bitcoin but doesn't even bat an eye about ETH full blockchain is 2.2TB in size and it's much younger than bitcoin. If anyone needs a scaling solution it'd be ETH. Yet btc was the first to introduce L2 solutions and just now ETH says they want to scale on L2.

And they say btc is old tech when its ahead of ETH in scaling even though ETH needs it way more than BTC.

Remember that btc follows principles such as maximizing decentralization amongst others. Without these principles, a blockchain is just a linked list data structure.

so the chinks began a scam almost 10 years before mining was centralized there due to asics for a moment?

imagine waiting for all these problems to be solved instead of believing in what noone believes in

>I am a PhD student at a major research university
yet your post betrays incredible ignorance and wishful thinking

Wishful thinking? Scaling nakamoto consensus is an ongoing research effort and there are several groups working on scalable protocols. It's definitely possible and will happen within a few years. PoS is not the answer to the scalability problem (i.e. ETH), but neither is Bitcoin nor any other gen-1 crypto. I can link some research articles if you'd like.

Actually I'll just give some of the best papers I've read here for anyone interested:
arxiv.org/pdf/1810.08092
arxiv.org/pdf/1811.00125
arxiv.org/pdf/1809.01593
arxiv.org/pdf/1805.03870

If you haven't read the book "the bitcoin standard", I suggest it. Bitcoin is like a blend of economics, tech, and social norms. Understanding technical aspects of bitcoin is great but the economics and social norms are just as important.

so far nobody could devise a better system than bitcoin all thing considered. its wishful yhinking that anyine will without sacrificing from the core tenets there will be no scale up of base protocol unless the underlying infrastructure scales with it.

We can agree to disagree then. I can't see into the future, but I can see the promise of the ongoing research and I believe in the future of the tech.

there is ongoing research into curing cancer for decades now and that is actually promising. the greatest fear of core devs that in a rush of adoption set on by a black swan event bitcoin block size would scale over the underlying infrastructure if they took the big vlock route. dags are fun but all implementation has special validating nodes making them permissuoned and trustful compared to blockchain. something will have to give from scaling, being distributed (required for trustless and permissionless) and security. any two is easy enough as you can see by the tsunami of shitcoins that arose after btc.

It's well know and it will always be scarce. The majority of people that will get into bitcoin will have only superficial knowledge, they just know that others think it's worth something. Look at Venezuela for example, economy is truly fucked, do they search for an alternative. Bitcoin is widely known, is the most widely accepted crypto, and the one for which there is the most infrastructure and one with the most information readily available online about it, so they place their money in bitcoin. Bitcoin even has advantages over gold and silver, because you can store it in your phone rather than having to carry heavy metal which can be difficult to smuggle and so easily stolen. It's also more divisible than gold or silver, so it doesn't have to be all in 1 ounce divisions. Bitcoin may be flawed, but just like fiat, people will get on board if they trust that others trust it. Trust in bitcoin could collapse, sure, but it has a lot of clout as the original crypto which will last a long time, though not forever. The only store of value that will last forever is gold.

>The only store of value that will last forever is gold.
im not sure about that gold can revert to base industrial metal status easily

>In a few years or so, we will see a better form of Bitcoin. I'm not talking about BSV/BCH fork scam shit, I'm talking about an entirely new project that takes the Bitcoin protocol and improves it in every way possible.

It's called Monero and probably around the time Tari is ready, in a few years, it's going to blow everyone away. By then enough people might know what the fuck cryptocurrency is to appreciate Monero.

Attached: Upcoming-Side-chain-Project-Tari-to-Build-a-Decentralized-Assets-Protocol-over-Monero’s-Framework- (1120x669, 61K)

ZEC fulfills those goals OP