Facts:
>In most pre-capitalistic societies work was not essential for many social classes
>The majority of workers perform annoyong and repetitive operations (easily automatable)
>Resources distribution is unequal and unequality is increasing (despite the Capitalistic promise of prosperity)
How much human potential are we wasting when se send people to work almost all the day?
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Most of people was full of liberist bullshits about due, guilt, deserving things through work.
They don't notice that the system is fake, broken, corrupt, or it simply does not work.
They enjoy stay poor, and they become poorer and poorer as time passes, because they can't even afford the lifestile of their parents.
They can't live a normal decent life, can't have a family, they're born in debth and keep living with this.
They don't even realize that liberism is ending his own life: through automation and robots, the average workers will be not necessary anymore.
>They enjoy stay poor
Back to your street, pajeet
if you're not the 1% you're poor too, americuk
'Human Potential' is to be food for the wolves. Keeping (dead) sheep on the farm is how to increase 'potential'.
Helicopter money is the only control lever of the tribe. Being closer to the free money funnel is how mockery of man is made. How is tribal synagogue power potential, wasted? Sending them to do bullshit busywork? Such an argument is a joke, like the gentile businessman meeting, asking hiw business us going, and responding
>GREAT!
Cry for the potential for postmodern expression lost before implementation of UBI. Imagineer a court system where anyone could buy influential representation.
>Human potential WE are wasting
Whom is we? The wheat AND the weeds?
>Most of people was full of liberist bullshits
Here you are, boy
So UBI means there will be 2x more people living in poverty? That's what that chart seems to imply.
In most pre-capitalist societies, people also died with 30, had no internet or other nice things. It is totally unclear to me who is going to provide things like
- teaching
- care for the elderly
- upkeep of infrastructure
- transportation
- policing
Besides, most people need to work to not become depressed (depression is rampant among the unemployed). I cannot see all people becoming artists and authors all of a sudden.
>yet another lefty/pol/ communist shill thread
Btw the red stack leaves and then everyone else makes less money, the markets fall apart, food supplies dry up and you have venezuela. What a stupid meme.
Its called Capital Flight. Rich people arent forced to stay in your country and can leave any time they want.
Is technological and social development originated by capitalism or is capitalism originated by technological and social development?
>In most pre-capitalistic societies work was not essential for many social classes
i'm sorry what ?
most people worked gruelling manual labour in fields just to stay alive with no hope for a better life for them or their children
the industrial revolution fuelled by capitalism created freedom for billions of peoples
you're noting but a lazy pos leaching on smarter hard working peoples just kill yourself you degenerate slime
> In most pre-capitalist societies, people also died with 30
People dies at 30 now too
>Thinking about the world under the assumption that equality of outcome is desireable.
>"We have to fix all this inequality!!"
Enjoy your utopia, gomrade. I'd rather live in a dome on Mars.
Equality of outcome is, at the end, a target of liberism too.
The wages bell goes more and more narrow, at the end there's only a huge amount of poor people sinking in debt (even if they do have decent jobs), some servant barely above them, and a very small Elite of rich people.
Skipped history lessons, sir? See what happens in the XIX century England, for example: thousands of farmers forced to move in cities where they lived worse than before only because a bunch of monopolists expropriated their lands.
Also, welfare state was created to arginate extreme left Wing spread through the poorest.
the age 30 thing is skewed by infant mortality rates. If you survived babyhood you lived plenty long most of the time.
People back in the day had nice things like a sense of community, purpose, and belonging. We have toilets and fortnite now but we are all basically miserable dissociated wastoids slave cucks living in a postmodern nihilistic hellscape.
Everyone loves to fellate the conveniences that modern society has won us but convenience != satisfaction or fulfillment.
I can guarantee you the average ancient greek citizen, or even paleolithic hunter gatherer or medieval serf probably swueezed more fulfilment out of their life than the average 21st century westerner does. Despite or probably in part because of the challenges, hardships and inconveniences they had to face on a daily basis.
Enough with the myth of the hustling geniuses who'd bestow their talent upon humanity if we'd feed them more welfare gibs. True geniuses always find a way - sometying UBItards can't comprehend.
>muh liberism
>muh prognostication using only first order thinking
Back to leftypol, you economically illiterate mong.
I'm the opposite of a lefty, user.
Still socialism, btw.
Ok, user. Imagine you were born in Nigeria. No basic hygiene/education, socially and economically devastated. Do you believe you can have the same possibilities of a middle class american (school, stable nation, financially sustained by parents)?
the standard of living in the western world has increased substantially thanks to capitalism.
Look at the difference in technological advancement between the year 1500-1600. Then compare the difference to between 1900-2000. It is incomparable.
>Useless meme
>"economically illitterate mong"
A man of culture, as well
Ordo-libtords feel always the urge to try to annihilate their oppositors, that's because of their intrinsic moral dickletness.
Why do you faggots hate companies and remain suspicious of their every move but have unwavering support of government to provide you with your UBI?
Wait a minute, we talking about 3rd world shitholes now? Airdropping money over there will do nothing but increasing their already exponential birthrates leading to mass unrest, pandemics and mass migration. I'm talking about the nations that came up with the idea of UBI, not trying to coerce the social order of other countries.
Clearly you don't know about the working conditions in the factories in England in the end of the 19th century.
Nor are you aware about today's working condition in China factories which make your electronic devices.
In any case, people are way more exploited today than a few centuries ago.
Yes, you heard just fine. Having nice electronics and internet doesn't mean that surplus labor is smaller than 150 years ago.
Surplus labor is way bigger now than in the 19th century.
An increase in productivity doens't mean you are not exploited.
In fact it is the opposite. The more productivity increase, the more people are exploited of their surplus labor.
...and the point is?
>Airdropping money over there will do nothing but increasing their already exponential birthrates leading to mass unrest, pandemics and mass migration
Money=wellness=birth reduction (see demographical pyramids)
YangGang2020
That you're dumb, we can't even count on the government to enforce existing benefits properly, what makes you think UBI will be any different?
This. We'll all be equally poor, degenerated illiterates like the Chinese were under 60+ years of Maoism.
>Resources distribution is unequal and unequality is increasing (despite the Capitalistic promise of prosperity)
prosperity is general wealth and has nothing to do with the arbitrary measure that a few individuals win. leftists and UBI supporters are basically spoiled retards that do not understand what wealth is, how to measure it. if UBI were ever implemented it would result in wealth destruction. leftists are too fucking stupid to understand that "bigger numbers" and "more units of currency" has nothing at all to do with wealth. wealth is created by the efficient allocation of capital.
WHERE THE FUCK DO YOU GET THE MONEY? Take it from the (((1%))). What happens when they leave? Have you seen our gdp? Now calculate ubi.
Leave this board
...I have to admit I didn't expect that to actually work.
Or maybe you crawl back to your containment board
Was subprime mortgage efficient allocation?
Fact
> total society wealth does not care about how unequal incomes are
UBI suggests taking the money from the most successful and industrious people on this Earth who happen to push the humanity forwards towards new horizons and gives it to generic consumers. It is the same as welfare programs, which, I suppose it is safe to say, have failed.
People work instead of automatons not because capitalists are mean, but because it is cheaper. Noone wants to spend billions in rnd and risk bankruptcy just so that poor bastards would pet him on the head.
If you forcibly make em aitomate all jobs, it will stall the development. And then you want to reward these guyz for making their industries super-efficient by posing an extra tax on them. Double hit. What is the point of automation then from the capitalist pov?
> but muh poor, muh children and women
Emotional judgement. Disregarded.
The world is a brutal and ceaseless march of violence, greed and progress, merely as the byproduct of the first two. And you say we can just ditch them and enjoy the dessert. You are weong
I never understand this argument against capitalism. Bad actors act in a corrupt way, and immediately we should throw the baby out with the bath water. Bad actors wrote bad contracts, dumb people signed them. "let's light everything on fire!"
Unexpectedly tough question. Care to elaborate?
What is your point?
>fact
kya
>welfare programs, which, I suppose it is safe to say, have failed
fucking what lmao
Fact
Not every entrepeneur is a Bill Gates or Elon Musk. Many of them are not innovative or efficient. Also, companies' profits are made from outsourcing (3rd world famine wages workers) or bureaucratic tricks to pay less taxes
>UBI
You're going to get it good and hard. Only you won't have the freedom which cash currently has to offer. Your universal income will be distributed by entitlements under a system modeled on China's Social Credit. The ownership structure at the top will not change one bit. Because it won't need to. Normies will be fully placated, their every consumer need supplied by Amazon, Apple & Netflix. Of course, this brave new world comes with a string attached. If you're not the goodest of good goyim you will be frozen out of the system entirely.
Forgot meds today, user?
Race war isnt just a meme.
yeah retard, it is doable
at least we can try something before everything goes to shit
Where do we get the money to cover UBI? user before seems to have misunderstood me. I just want to know where we get the money
it would have been if the government didn't decide that it should stop letting businesses fail
I'm not saying capitalism is pure evil. The problem is making an assumption (resources are efficiently allocated) without any opening to relativism: in an automated future, leaving enormous profits in the hands of entrepeneurs will be the efficient allocation front of a poor unemployed slum?
we don't get to need money for that, just the resources (which in essence just need energy in some form to be produced/delivered)
and ofc you can not buy just anything you please with UBI monies, but it will do for regular stuff
fucking retard nigger. you think "regular stuff" that people need day to day grows on trees. go live in the jungle you fucking ape. I'd love to watch how fast it all crumbles from some island tax haven if this shit ever gets passed, along with the rest of the rich people who will leave.
>people are way more exploited today than a few centuries ago
Embarrassing, pham. Just get a job. Things will get better for you.
Too long for a reply, I fear. What I'm trying to say is capitalism found many factors permitting its rise and continuation. Without them I think It would only have been a war to spoil and self-destruction, "à-la Malthus". In an hypothetical world without any equality value or a scientifical develop like what capitalists found in XVIII century, probably we would have died out many years ago.
This is not an unreasonable response, so thank you. There are a lot of valid points you and I could make. Such as, if I give a person $500 to spend $500 at my store, I will fail. Or with the progress of technology, more people will have less utility in the marketplace, perhaps reaching zero. Do we safeguard against our human nature? My argument is that we need less bureaucracy and legislation (greed) and more entrepreneurialism to progress. People are going to be marginalized, some may not make it. I know you don't agree with this, but this is nature in my mind. We chose this with a drive towards technological pursuits. If we abandon now, we will do more damage. Or am I missing a different road?
Do you believe social order will be mantained front of emarginated only guided by survival instinct? I think your vision is unrealistic and socially dangerous
Fact
> failing enterps usuaully... Ehh... fail. And stop wasting resources. While the succeeding, thanks to the society recognizing the benefit of their work, eh... succeed and keep on working.
That is the natural selection element that increases wealth, just as fitness is increased in populations
Also, aint nothing wrong with outsourcing. Why should anyone pay more, when he can pay less? Would you accept proposal to work twice as hard for twice less money on your current job? The employer wants to have more money too, wouldnt it be more humane for you to respect his needs?
As for tax evasion, that is where welfare programs have failed. They need more and more tax money, more taxes make big biz shop for new jurisdictions and stifle smol biz growth. Wealth redistribution is not wealth generation, but people generally fail to realize that
I do not believe that you are completely wrong. I only know what works for me. For me, owning a business gives me the ability to maximize my efficiency and well-being. I would say that we have to recognize the danger of the other side as well. If we pay people to exist, what becomes of society? Can we sustain that? I also want to be careful to articulate that I do not mean survival of the fittest in the truest sense, I mean I am incentivized to work hard, and if I fail it is on me and me alone. If a future technology eradicates my business, it is on me to pivot and create something new that fills the gaps. Again, I see your point but I can only operate and think from my position, which is you work for what you eat. If there is no work, I do not eat
Bangladesh minimum wage is $ 38. How the fuck can an average american compete?
>the most successful and industrious people on this Earth who happen to push the humanity forwards towards new horizons
LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
As an aside, thank you for actually debating. I will never be 100% correct, so it is great to get another perspective. This board would benefit greatly from actual discussion and not throwing shit
Git gud. As I said before, the world is brutal. You either git gud or die. If you dont sort your shit out, it is your time to die. GL
Thank you, user. I think constructive discussion is Always positive. Especially when we disagree
...and the peace Nobel price goes to
Exploitation is not a feeling. It is a fact.
Aaaand this is somehow an argument to keep it that way?
Bootlicking brainlet
Everyone who takes the surplus labor of an other human being is a bad actor.
Who wants to give his life to someone else?
Based and redpilled.
Idiots will say it was "muh Nixon ending the gold standard", without realizing that was the end of the keynesian consensus and the beginning of neoliberalism.
After granting us the gift of one heck of a financial crisis ('member CDS and CDO?), they try to push for MORE deregulation and policies that favor capital instead of labor.
*Who is we
Whom is akin to "him" "her" or "them"
Forgot how to argue against the coming of an inevitable dystopia, user?
>Money=wellness=birth reduction (see demographical pyramids)
Math skills of UBItards in a nutshell. Hate to break it to you but money won't change 2000+ years of retarded genetics.
Facts:
>95% of all jobs that existed in 1900 have disappeared
>automation killed most of those jobs
>employment rates are higher today than in 1900
why?
>new jobs that nobody foresaw were created
you are a retard
/thread
All would-be social and economic engineers and meddlers get the rope.
And they won't change idiotic social Darwinism
> increased prodyctivity comes with increased use of hr and not capital investment
>95% of all jobs that existed in 1900 have disappeared
Prove that
Horses
If I meant Who is We?, I would have wrote -Who are We?
I did in fact mean, THEY are WE? By asking, Whom is we?
Are We BOTH the wheat for harvest and the tares to be burned? Essetially, no. Is the Debtor and the Lender a 'We'? Is predator and prey a 'We'? Is that who We are? Whom is this noun We, as used in OP? THE MULTITUDE, in eternal rebellion from the heavenly father.
UBI is on the table because jubilee has been made impossible by the same money changers whom murdered the Lord God in the flesh, and infinite rehypothecation idolatry accepted as GAAP.
>chimney sweep
>elevator attendant
>Horseshoe smith
>(nightly) gas streetlight starter
>whaler/whale oil manufacturer
>horse carriage driver/builder/maintinence
>Typists
>Phone switchboard operators
>shoe cleaner
>the wide variety of "medical" jobs that existed before modern medicine was created
>the numerous jobs that employed people from the ages of 4-16
>Steam engine manufacturer
>Wooden ship builder
>Daily Milk deliveryman
>chamberpot maid, chamberpot makers
>the daily shit/piss cleaning by street cleaners
>Ice delivery, and transportation across hundreds of miles
>Salt mining (thanks to iodization, salt is common and dirt cheap nowadays, instead of rare and worth it's weight in gold like it used to be)
there are thousands more examples, thats just off the top of the head
the only certainty in life is change, if you expect to be able to make a living by doing the same thing for 60 years in a row, then you deserve to be broke