is cryptosteel the best recovery seed backup available?
>doesn't require additional tools
>stands against the elements
>punched in and not laser engraved
>seed phrases can be re-done to avoid purchasing another set if you decide to use a different recovery seed later on
seems pretty solid tbdesu. thanks for posting, been meaning to pull the trigger on one of these for a minute but been to lazy
If it somehow got warped and letters fall out you can put them back in, but good luck getting it back in correct order. Just get a cheap steel or titanium sheet, some stamps, hammer, and beading/jewelry anvil plate. Takes like 20 minutes but you know that shit ain't going anywhere. As a plus you can reuse the hammer, stamps, and plate.
for what?
dawg if it gets hot enough for titanium to warp you probably have bigger problems on your hands than your cones. trust me dude i larp as an underwater welder here all the time so i definitely know what i'm talking about.
Beating in your skull after you lose everything in two months gambling on the 'mex.
just have two backups of your keys in two safe locations man
>If it somehow got warped and letters fall out you can put them back in, but good luck getting it back in correct order.
this really doesn't happen as it only got warped in testing when flame was directly against it at twice the heat of a normal house fire
i really only need it to survive a house/apartment fire
You're a retard if you leave your entire seed at a single location.
if anyone wants me to make them a steel plate with their seed words on it for free, DM me.
i don't get it guys... why do you insist in the worst possible security protocol for long term storage that actually costs money?
>You're a retard if you leave your entire seed at a single location.
ideally you'd have a 3 grouped approach
thank you! but even better how about you don't leave it out in plain text anywhere?
looks like Raid 5
I generated my seed from a password.
At least that means even if my house burns or something I can have my crypto
ill just write it inside a random book in two locations, thanks
i like this a little bit, it reminds me of the 2 of 3 keysharing with xor.
but here is the deal your security is 8 words if anyone finds a plate not 24.
Bilfodil is better. Laser engraved and it has a latch that stops the end bit opening, even if the screw is turned to unlock it.
I use one of these and a 25th worth Passphrase I keep in my head.
the 25th word is a distraction makes you feel secure in an irrational way. if you lose custody of your 24 words you can get rekt within hours.
>Laser engraved
laser engraved is not better than stamping
How? Without the 25th word, they can't get to the wallets with my main chunk of cash.
dude... it only take a couple of hours to go through all the english words
if it's a more complicated but small password (say 8 chars) it's still crap compared to a couple of words in combination.
A regular house fire is confirmed to heat up these kinds of wallets enough for them to bend slightly out of shape and lose order of the bits. They are useless and very expensive for what they claim to cover. Better punch your own metal plate.
to continue is a key sharing scheme that will make you 8 words secure in case of a break in to a single location.
8 words is enormous security if the operation is both memory and cpu intensive compared to a single word or a password.
Nah m8, the letters are easier to read, don't warp and also the pieces are laser cut too so they slide into place easier.
I also have a padlock on mine and a minor amount of crypto just stored against the keys of the 24 word seed, so if anyone DOES steal it, they'll only get a small amount and think that's it.
I have a backup one hidden away at my parent's house too, so even if it does get stolen, 'I' don't lose access to my shit.
how many of these steel shits do you posses jesus christ?
I have my 24 words saved in 1pasword
this is a good idea until someone finds it and steals your shit
Not sure what you're getting at. By "25th word" I meant the "25th word passphrase". As in I have a password of >14 characters, uses a mixture of daft shit, mixed case, numerics, special characters but easy to remember, (personal to me). You can have up to 100 characters as your 25th word passphrase...
Try cracking that easily, and even then most numpty / druggy burglars ain't going to manage that.
It also means if someone's attacking my testicles with a power drill for my crypto, I can just give them the 24 word seed and they'll go home happy with around £100-200. Rather than my whole stack. (Important never to tell people exactly how much you have, otherwise they'll just keep drilling).
password safe?
this is true, 25th word is worthless.
Seed generated from the brainwallet is the only way
This is retarded and insecure.
Use Shamir Secret Sharing like SLIP-0039 or something, don't be a retard and roll your own security like this.
Two. One hidden at my house, another at my parent's. Padlocked so anyone who actually found and got it would think my entire crypto amount is just on the seed.
billfodl.com
It has two latches so there's no chance of all the tiles falling out or getting mixed up.
It's a vault. You need like a 64 char key and a master password.
You can have up to 100 characters! Why the fuck would you just use a single word?
How do the big wallet holders secure their crypto? Can't be at bank vaults, r-right?
well here is the deal you need to have over 20 characters generally, but 14 is pretty damn good will buy you enough time to use your backup and move your funds.
it's just weird for me. the entire point of a seed word group is to make memoriz-able passwords strong enough to resist any future brute force attempt. you write them down and you use a non memorize able password to replace their security. and you think this somehow makes sense.
>It also means if someone's attacking my testicles with a power drill for my crypto, I can just give them the 24 word seed and they'll go home happy with around £100-200. Rather than my whole stack.
that's actually crafty i will give you that.
I looked at getting a cryptosteel and that but 100 bucks is too much. Plus you go through an airport X ray scanner say if you're moving country and boom compromised seed if its stamped.
multisig wallets you would need to hit multiple locations at the same time to get anything.
If they torture you and find the 200 dollars why would they not torture you again for an hour to make sure you don't have another secret? And how long are you going to hold out the torture before you say your first pass otherwise it will be too suspect. Also if they know you have more (they won't capture you if they know you have 200 come on..) you are fucked anyway.
I just keep my written trezor seed phrase in a safety deposit box at my local bank while I keep my hardware wallet in my home.
not to mention they can confiscate it.
which is why it makes fucking sense to make it computationally very very expensive to try a password and then memorize a "simple" password you can instead of going full retard with 24 words that you have to write down.
hope none of the bankers take a peak inside your lock box
okay here is the problem with that, not trustless with your seed doesn't require the hardware to spend your shit.
second problem you should have used multiple locations so that you have no single point of failure in recovery.
overall tho it's a sensible approach for a hot wallet for moderately low sum.
getting your seed from a mass produced book is
steel is mainly useful if you plan to die or lose your memory
Yup, exactly.
You can also have MULTIPLE "25th" words that each resolve to different wallets. So even more security if you break your stack into those. Makes things more complex though, but does solve the "well what if they somehow know I'm using the 25th word passphrase" problem.
And yeah I just don't think I'd ever remember those 24 words in the seed so easily. Whereas it's easy to remember a single, longer one that uses multiple, various silly words that only mean something to me, plus case differences and numerics / special characters.
I'm not nearly that paranoid and the people working at your average branch are mouthbreathing retards
I'm not worried about some retail cuck actually risking his shit to check my box, what are the odds they'd even look in mine versus the 100+ other boxes in the room? No one comes in the vault with you when you put your valuables in the box so they'd have no indication as to what it is.
Fwiw I have 12 BTC on there
This is to deter the average burglar or druggie, not a 2-man torture-trained, cartel funded hit squad.
Also like I mentioned here you can have multiple passphrases. The ONLY way there's any point in continuing to torture you is if they're going to kill you anyway, or if they have a VERY good idea of how much you have in total, then you're fucked either ways.
put it inside a lockable container inside the safety deposit box and even if they open your deposit box they wont see your recovery seed
Interesting
But how does that work?
actually compared to most shit in this thread this is a very simple and secure approach. 8 words worst case is swell security. frankly anything between 5 to 8 is fine.
it's also robust to a meteor hitting your seed location or other natural disaster theft whatever.
put one in a safe at home, put one in a bank trezor, place one at a relatives or something you can even keep it on your person at all times.
well it's good that you are not worried, i like to keep my crypto completely trustless.
it's just hard if you want your bitcoins not to get lost when you die. key sharing mechanisms still place trust in parties not colluding while you are still alive.
with a good trustless resettable timelock service you could build some nice shit.
You faggot. Just buy a set of stamps and a piece of sheet metal. Dont spend 200 bucks on that. Fucking dumbass.
it works like this: you got 3 locations, at which 3 private key is stored 2 out of 3 needs to sign a transaction if one location is compromise the other two will immediately spend to a safe offline backup address.
How is this steel any better than pen and paper. Talk about a fucking meme
>with a good trustless resettable timelock service you could build some nice shit
i have long been contemplating a website where you could upload your "treasure troves" which are actually encrypted containers. you can set a timelock on them, if someone requests one of these with the url you can copy from the site and share with your progeny you get a notification and a counter starts. until the counter you set (say 60 days) expires you can reset it any time if you are still alive. only your kid knows the request url and the password to open the secret. the service can't misappropriate anything.
but it's still not completely trustless. you still trust the service not to collude with your progeny. if only we could make it entirely trustless.
Anyone can look at your pen & paper and copy it, these are lockable and out of sight.
Also good luck with that pen & paper in the event of a house fire or flood, or just general wear & tear / corrosion over time.
>these are lockable
you think they are bolt cutter resistant? kek. no.
But how to know if its compromised?
if we are talking about big fish real serious amounts, there is security in place. otherwise just watch the news.
I keep my crypto notebook inside a fireproof lockbox. Seems like a better investment, you can put other stuff inside there too.
>the letters are easier to read
yes they're easier to read initially
but the point is if they're still legible after destruction hits
compared to stamping they absolutely aren't
stops the average joe who stumbles across it immediately looking inside. Also like I mentioned, hiding and "locking" that, makes for a good decoy where people will think that's all you've got, rather than wondering whether you're using a 25th word passphrase.
You can't make something 100% foolproof, only take reasonable steps to make it more secure. Protection against flooding, fire and time, as well as from a random person seeing it or burglar is reasonable enough, (if you're using a strong passphrase too).
Yeah but I mean: Say for example 1 location is compromised. How would they even know? Things can be stolen without someone realising even if security
They're laser engraved, and much less likely to warp than stamped ones which end up more brittle.
Exactly what sort of "Destruction" strong enough to damage these are we talking here, a fucking meteor? The plates are protected by the outer shell.
i guess so. however you still got a weak spot. the decoy wallet is a nice touch i admit, i actually like that.
but your hardware wallet is still a huge vulnerability if it ever gets misappropriated.
you will notice when your office is thrown around as they look for key backups onsite. you can also easily place alarms on the server rooms use not only vpn-d webcams (which going dark will count as a compromised site) but safety laser curtains detecting door entries.
i would say a couple of grands is all it takes to secure a server room where unauthorized entry would trigger the protocol.
If you live in a nice house and drive a nice car, they will have a ballpark figure at least.
>A regular house fire is confirmed to heat up these kinds of wallets enough for them to bend slightly out of shape and lose order of the bits
>citation needed
in lopp's stress test direct flame at double house fire temperatures only managed to slightly warp the cryptosteel enough for some to fall out
medium.com
KEK
>Plus you go through an airport X ray scanner say if you're moving country and boom compromised seed if its stamped.
good thing you can remove them for the travel and temporarily store the seed on paper or something
jesus christ it's like you guys don't even think before posting
well i just use paper wallets with multiple backups so even if a site burns down i don't give a fuck. and they don't cost anything. and yes they are encrypted unencrypted wallets/seeds are retarded.
use a tamper evidence seal as an indicator that someone went through your shit
or you could just keep the paper and not fuck around with these toys. altho it's true that some things like to eat paper like silverfish and mold but not much eats stainless steel. you can also print your wallets on rite in the rain or some other plastic or just bag them if that's a concern.
i'm inclined to have more overall copies than less that is more individually durable.
see
billfodl is clearly less legible than the cryptosteel and it would only get worse over time
i wonder if i could read it with an ultrasound... just to fuck with you.
>i'm inclined to have more overall copies than less that is more individually durable.
i think 3 are good
>1. cryptosteel w/ tamper seal @ home safe
>2. ledger wallet @ home for daily transaction use
>3. ledger wallet w/ tamper seal @ local bank
the ledger wallet is your vulnerability. it's not security it's the opposite. what ledger and it's likes do is protect you from a compromised electronic device malware ransomware can mostly fuck right off. once someone has physical access to them they are your worst nightmare as their security is actually snakeoil shit. sure jamal will not be able to open them, but his fence will know just the guy.
3 locations for actual cryptographically strongly secured backup of your keys is the minimum.
neither crpyto steel nor ledger qualifies sorry.
i mean crypto steel could store actual encrypted shit so in that what i was said was not accurate entirely. what i meant was plain text seeds.
Maybe memorising the seed is the best choice Tbh
It's not that difficult to do
or at least partially memorize it like the last 6 words
Make a story with the seed words and just remember it that way
yeah but if you are hell bent on making sure your wallet does not die with you use at the very minimum!
Make a story with the seed words and then read it to your children every night before bed and get them to repeat it back to you, all the way until they're 18 years old lol
Of course, but it would be max an hour or two, where I'd just call my parents and ask them to bring me the backup seed, where I'd then transfer my funds to another one.
It would have to be VERY targeted, and by some guys who would immediately have enough computing power on hand to brute force an unknown number of characters, (and they wouldn't even know if the 25th word existed, they'd have to try ALL possible combinations of 100 chars).
Not really, unless you're in a fucking mansion. Most average joes with a house and car won't have that much left to put away. The avg burglar will go for your car instead.
Many people dabbling in crypto will put no more than a thousand in, most people would just dunk a hundred or so. Unless you're a well-known trader, they wouldn't know.
kek
no the device is not protected by your password only a pin but even that could be soft protection ie meaningless. the ledger has the keys on it's "secure" chip.
You can set the 25th word as a "Temporary" passphrase, which wipes itself on unplugging the ledger, so it only stores your 24 word seed in it's internal memory.
That or just wipe the ledger each time after you've used it. Not much point if you store the ledger in the same place as the steel seed though.
Also get the pin wrong 3 times and it wipes itself.
Based and steelpilled.
see what i said about snakeoil bullshit security?
you don't even understand the attack vector here.
it's best if you think of your ledger as an airgapped computer. that is pretty secure against malware on your online computer but anyone with physical access to it can take your bitcoin. and design your security from that perspective!
i know a rich cypherpunk who developed a custom cipher for his private keys, then got it tattood on his leg where the boxers cover. he said its the only method by which he never loses his keys, according to him only he can solve the cipher to get to his key.
Hmm, this just gave me an idea.
We have a manual engraving machine. I can use that to engrave the keys on some jewellery or metal piece.
Any ideas on what to engrave it on?
i just use metal stamps on stainless